We will never return to capitalism as we know it

[Bitcoin Enhanced]

This piece by Scott Minerd from Guggenhiem Capital outlines pretty clearly that we are at the end of capitalism, and perhaps society as we know it.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/us-will-never-return-free-market-capitalism-guggenheims-minerd-warns-current-crisis-lead

Forewarned is forearmed.

I fully agree with Scott's view.  I would however suggest we do not just leave it to the policymakers to "address fundamental reforms in the economy to restore growth and reduce inequality".  Investors need to do this.  I have called the approach Robust Finance: https://www.kenton-dau.com/ and Bitcoin Enhanced is the first of a new asset class that can be part of the solution: https://bitcoinenhanced.io/

If we simply bemoan the mistakes of policy makers we miss the opportunity to see what we and the spirit of decentralised capitalism can achieve ourselves.

[jackg]

I don't think the US was every a free market capitalist country... It's probably hard to swallow for a lot of people from the US but the government often interferes with monetary policy and other areas it wouldn't if it were fully free market capitalist such as regulations from the fda.

Every country in history has either had a socialist system or an imperialisation with one monarchy in the total power...

The socialist policies you're gaining now are more a natural development, it's probably a standard flow into how Europe and other old areas are around now...

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It's a Zerohedge article, bro.  What kind of insubstantial end-of-the-world nonsense do you expect from that site?

And since it's from ZH, I'm not clicking on the link or reading it.  I know I'm not alone and that other members have the same reaction to articles they publish.  Maybe it would be better if you quoted some pertinent snippets for those of us unwilling to give ZH clicks.

In any case, we're not approaching the end of capitalism.  It's alive and well and will survive and thrive when other economic systems go bust.  Why?  Because it allows ownership of property and the potential to create wealth.  It's certainly not a perfect system by any means, but it's a hell of a lot more attractive than some of the alternatives.

[exstasie]

To think that the economy is going to reaccelerate in the third quarter in a V-shaped recovery to the level where gross domestic product (GDP) was prior to the pandemic is unrealistic. Four years from now the economy will most likely recover to the same level of activity that it was in January.

Strongly agree on this point. Back in mid-March I was in the "V-shaped recovery" camp, pushing the 1987 stock market crash as a parallel and saying this crisis would be one month and then done.

That worked out well for trading the current stock market relief rally, but the underlying economic situation looks exponentially worse now. It's becoming obvious that "reopening" doesn't mean returning to pre-pandemic production or employment levels, and that the pandemic itself will likely last years.

Across the globe, there are no economic numbers suggesting a V-shaped recovery. It has almost become a pipe dream.

I don't think the US was every a free market capitalist country... It's probably hard to swallow for a lot of people from the US but the government often interferes with monetary policy and other areas it wouldn't if it were fully free market capitalist such as regulations from the fda.

Yep, the US is clearly a mixed economy, free markets with state intervention. QE was just yet another policy in a very long history of state interventions.

It's a Zerohedge article, bro.  What kind of insubstantial end-of-the-world nonsense do you expect from that site?

And since it's from ZH, I'm not clicking on the link or reading it.

The trick is to look at ZH's sources. It's not Tyler Durden who made these comments, it was a prominent investment executive at a firm with 270 billion USD under management. I suggest reading the actual letter: https://www.guggenheiminvestments.com/perspectives/global-cio-outlook/prepare-for-the-era-of-recrimination

[hatshepsut93]

Marxists were saying that capitalism has just a few years left to live for how long already - 150 years? And even though people think that capitalism emerged after feudalism, the core elements of capitalism existed for as long as civilization and society exist, because having property and exchanging it with others is a part of human nature. Capitalism will never die.

And there you have it: the US is now (and has been for the past decade) just a more dignified form of USSR-style central planning, one where prices are set by decree and a decline in asset levels is prohibited for one simple reason

This is just bullshit from someone who has no idea how life was in USSR.

[fiulpro]

Not just capitalism , but the government did prove that they are inefficient in handling situations like this , they cannot even contain their own citizens , they need to reform the whole government, otherwise the next pandemic will be the end of everyone.
One needs to understand that , society should not be ruled , it should be supported . The leaders are servants , not the King , that is how it should have gone. But instead the corruption have paved the way inside and now it is struggling to be kept together.
Situation is very serious and proper reforms needs to be made in particular sectors .

[Naida_BR]

We are not going to return to capitalism as we know but the same goes to socialism as well.
There is not any viable system that could be the one or the other.
It will be a mixture of the two in order to keep a balance in metrics that cannot be improved in capitalism or in socialism itself.

[palle11]

In any case, we're not approaching the end of capitalism.  It's alive and well and will survive and thrive when other economic systems go bust.  Why?  Because it allows ownership of property and the potential to create wealth.  It's certainly not a perfect system by any means, but it's a hell of a lot more attractive than some of the alternatives.

Is obvious that capitalism is the system for modern age. The survival of the fittest theory best support the capitalism system. The theory encourages individual growth to the benefit of the country and society in general/world. This system has produced a lot of entrepreneurs which are called bourgeois and allowing for the other side called proletariat to progress into bourgeois not limited to class alone - that is the surviving fit of humans in the society and this is guaranteed by capitalism. It has been the system most benefiting the society and technological age we are enjoying now.

On the other way for people who are not favouring the capitalism, they should pressure on the government to be active on their contract with the people on security and regulation or regulating the capitalism system or capitalist activities, otherwise this is the system that has recorded much economic growth and other growth in the sphere of human life.

[Darker45]

I don't agree that we are at the end of capitalism. Capitalism is a broad system. It cannot just end as if a fully different system will take over. There is only change within capitalism. I believe the system is dynamic; it adapts to changes. Even in a country as China which officially calls itself a socialist country, there is capitalism.

Modern economic policy-making has never been a one-man show. Inputs from various sectors are not shunned.

[amishmanish]

This is a pretty good discussion to have and Americans should be paying more attention to this than just looking for clickbaits. I read the original letter and it does say that "Free markets as we know it will end". The way the author builds up the case can be summarized from the following quotes:

• Companies and voters alike will soon ask, “Why didn’t I get help? You bailed out the airlines, right? You bailed out all these other corporations. But you didn’t do anything for me.”

• The underlying vulnerabilities in some of these industries are not being addressed. Fed purchases cannot turn bad debt into good debt.

This i think is the most important point:

• The Fed and Treasury have essentially created a new moral hazard by socializing credit risk. The United States will never be able to return to free market capitalism as we knew it

• Eventually, a populist revolt to address the current massive inequality of income and wealth, will happen. Soon pressure will mount on policymakers to bolster the social safety net and increase things like healthcare and job security and maybe even institute a guaranteed living wage

It is essentially saying that the policy of constantly providing crutches to the economy instead of allowing it to self-correct has reached a breaking point with this crisis. This is the kind of crisis which actually needs crutches. As an outsider, it arises no confidence to read that the welathiest nation on earth runs on a system where half the population have savings less than 500 USD and hundreds of millions had to apply for unemployment benefits within a week of the lockdown announcement. Where are the parent institutions and communities that are supposed to be the support-system of a truly bottoms-up, advanced economy?

Add to this the political spectacle of Trump and his followers acting like buffoons with suggestions of injecting disinfectants, one really wonders that does the USA have anything left to claim to be the world's only superpower. It sucks for America and Americophiles like yours truly. (definitely not the food though, Americans truly have the most shit eating habits).

[gantez]

I don't agree that we are at the end of capitalism. Capitalism is a broad system. It cannot just end as if a fully different system will take over. There is only change within capitalism. I believe the system is dynamic; it adapts to changes. Even in a country as China which officially calls itself a socialist country, there is capitalism.

Modern economic policy-making has never been a one-man show. Inputs from various sectors are not shunned.

Maybe if there be a new system, we could say a system called neo capitalism    . This is because capitalism is always looking in growth of the economy which is the focused of the world now. This says much of the global system we are where every nation is trying to grow beyond others which is good for all.

[stompix]

If we simply bemoan the mistakes of policy makers we miss the opportunity to see what we and the spirit of decentralised capitalism can achieve ourselves.

Decentralized capitalism. Yup! Let's again make everything decentralized!
How about blockchain capitalism? 

This piece by Scott Minerd from Guggenhiem Capital outlines pretty clearly that we are at the end of capitalism

Do you know how a bitcoiner defines capitalism?
The only thing that had died more times than bitcoin!

Is obvious that capitalism is the system for modern age. The survival of the fittest theory best support the capitalism system.

Capitalism is the system for every age in human history.
From the moment the first man traded a stick for rock and the hunter got the best parts of the catch capitalism has been engraved in human history.
Capitalism works everywhere, in the desert, on a remote mountain, in a 10 million city, for socialism you need to combine a nuclear fission reactor with a fusion one, insert a gamma neutrino shield, 4 members of the avengers, 1000 tons of Ewok juice and it will still malfunction because it wasn't the real one.
Chasing real socialism is like chasing Elvis, there are everywhere but not one of them is the real one.

[Broly46]

All these talk about capitalism, yeah it’s very bad, it create wealth for the rich, but then poor stay poor, are you getting richer today compare to 2008? May be you have a smartphone on your palm now and you feel you’re living the future because you’re not 2008 again where people are typing on their keyboard on their Nokia, but your swiping the screen on your smartphone, yeah you’re getting richer by evolving from keyboard to touch screen. What else can you brag about besides a smarter devices? No flying car is coming out in this year so we all go to YouTube and watch some crackhead smashing up their iPhone into pieces, to find something to make fun of, and Tesla is not the future it’s just a joke.

[abhiseshakana]

We are not going to return to capitalism as we know but the same goes to socialism as well.
There is not any viable system that could be the one or the other.
It will be a mixture of the two in order to keep a balance in metrics that cannot be improved in capitalism or in socialism itself.

In the current global conditions, I think the Laissez-faire principle is difficult to enforce, in America even in the world of Oligarchy and plutocracy is a public secret. A group of people controls the course of government and rich people control the government of a country.

I am among those who are against the American version of capitalism and the Chinese version of state capitalism. It is more fun for decentralized businesses to form U corporations. Or individual businesses without institutions. because increasingly modern business civilization can be done by anyone. Everyone has the same opportunity in generating income.

In this era of technological progress, we can begin to build a populist-based economic system with a foundation that helps to be a solution to overcome social injustice. One example is through equity crow funding which funds small and medium businesses. During this time the upper class exploited the groups that existed at the base of the pyramid. Consolidation of the base of the pyramid will break the chain of accumulation of wealth at the top of the pyramid. So in this economic system, consumers can also act as one of the small investors in their shop business.

[mindrust]

All these talk about capitalism, yeah it’s very bad, it create wealth for the rich, but then poor stay poor, are you getting richer today compare to 2008? May be you have a smartphone on your palm now and you feel you’re living the future because you’re not 2008 again where people are typing on their keyboard on their Nokia, but your swiping the screen on your smartphone, yeah you’re getting richer by evolving from keyboard to touch screen. What else can you brag about besides a smarter devices? No flying car is coming out in this year so we all go to YouTube and watch some crackhead smashing up their iPhone into pieces, to find something to make fun of, and Tesla is not the future it’s just a joke.

You are rich if you don't have to work and spend your life on a boat. That's how I describe "being wealthy"

$2m in your bank account don't mean shit if you still have to go to work tomorrow. You can realize your position and live a rich life but till you do, you are not rich really. (according to me)

That $1k iphone (you can probably have a similar quality phone for much cheaper), $60-100k car (same thing applies, can find something cheaper which does the same trick without having to lose comfort) and similar shit like that you want these because Instagram makes you want to have these.

When you buy these overpriced shit while there are far cheaper options, and you actually support the real rich instead of you try to become one. But you know, it is impossible for everybody to be rich. That's how capitalism works. Some people need to stay as slaves.

And you know what's funny? People want to stay as slaves because that is all they know. That's what they learned from the college they went.

[stompix]

All these talk about capitalism, yeah it’s very bad, it create wealth for the rich, but then poor stay poor, are you getting richer today compare to 2008?

And yet, we're living the best times in human history
both when it comes to poverty

or life expectancy


23 charts and maps that show the world is getting much, much better

Only one thing keeps growing every day
People preaching the doom will come just because they are envious of the others.

In this era of technological progress, we can begin to build a populist-based economic system with a foundation that helps to be a solution to overcome social injustice. One example is through equity crow funding which funds small and medium businesses. During this time the upper class exploited the groups that existed at the base of the pyramid. Consolidation of the base of the pyramid will break the chain of accumulation of wealth at the top of the pyramid. So in this economic system, consumers can also act as one of the small investors in their shop business.

Yeah, comrade! Let's burn the kulaks again and rob them and build our socialist state.
Because it has worked so many times in the past it's going for sure to fail again!
Burn the exploiters !!! Death to the upper class! Glory to the working class!
Let's fuck our countries once more and become dirt poor again so we can test again a thing that failed a hundred times in the past!

I wish I'd have a time machine and let you all travel back in time in the '80 and experience socialism as I did, then hear what you would have to say about how great it would be to have those times again.

[Broly46]

All these talk about capitalism, yeah it’s very bad, it create wealth for the rich, but then poor stay poor, are you getting richer today compare to 2008? May be you have a smartphone on your palm now and you feel you’re living the future because you’re not 2008 again where people are typing on their keyboard on their Nokia, but your swiping the screen on your smartphone, yeah you’re getting richer by evolving from keyboard to touch screen. What else can you brag about besides a smarter devices? No flying car is coming out in this year so we all go to YouTube and watch some crackhead smashing up their iPhone into pieces, to find something to make fun of, and Tesla is not the future it’s just a joke.

You are rich if you don't have to work and spend your life on a boat. That's how I describe "being wealthy"

$2m in your bank account don't mean shit if you still have to go to work tomorrow. You can realize your position and live a rich life but till you do, you are not rich really. (according to me)

That $1k iphone (you can probably have a similar quality phone for much cheaper), $60-100k car (same thing applies, can find something cheaper which does the same trick without having to lose comfort) and similar shit like that you want these because Instagram makes you want to have these.

When you buy these overpriced shit while there are far cheaper options, and you actually support the real rich instead of you try to become one. But you know, it is impossible for everybody to be rich. That's how capitalism works. Some people need to stay as slaves.

And you know what's funny? People want to stay as slaves because that is all they know. That's what they learned from the college they went.

Don’t get we wrong, I didn’t blame on the price on anything we can buy, what’s I’m sorrow about is the capitalism itself, when I start to embrace this idea which is probably a red flag on me, the capitalism is rewarding the lazy and punish the hardworking people, I see knowledgeable people getting trashed under capitalism, knowledge is trash its worthless, all those smart people who could build civilisation get trashed, being there done that, I can feel that, I’m not saying I’m the most knowledgable person but I feel the wastefulness on it, we no longer value knowledges which is very sad, and don’t blame on the products that we have today which is often lack of knowledges, so what’s the point again, why are we argue here for what? We are salty about being poor, being what you think money is not everything, so a $1000 phone, so a $100k car, so what are the point we are arguing?

[jackg]

And yet, we're living the best times in human history
both when it comes to poverty

or life expectancy

We were at least? The data on life expectancy may be looking to go up but not for people poor since 2008, or for people who were fairly wealthy.... There are probably links between poor people and impure drug use or bad testing for drugs (or maybe the rich just take different types), anyway poor people are more likely to be more obese and have other issues so we may well see a dip in life expectancy - just speculation for now and mostly based on Europe.

Extreme poverty in Africa is going down, however for Europe and the americas, there are more people below the poverty line than there were in 2008. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States



European averages are around 17% also so both are doing awfully on that front.

[stompix]

We were at least? The data on life expectancy may be looking to go up but not for people poor since 2008, or for people who were fairly wealthy....

That data is global, it doesn't matter how wealthy you are or even where you live the countryside or towns.
Life expectancy is growing, if those times were that bad it would go down.

Extreme poverty in Africa is going down, however for Europe and the americas, there are more people below the poverty line than there were in 2008. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Those numbers you have shown in the graphics are biased for multiple reasons.
- they fail to take into account how immigrants are influencing the numbers,  millions in the last years
- poverty lines are changing, the same as mentioned in the article itself:

For example, in 2005, 63.7% of those living in poverty had cable or satellite television. In some cases the report even said that people currently living in poverty were actually better off than middle class people of the recent past. For example, in 2005, 78.3% of households living in poverty had air conditioning, whereas in 1970, 36.0% of all households had air conditioning

Do you know what middle class was here in the '90?
We were not poor but a car was out of reach, no color tv, waiting for lines for a fridge, a washing machine, the countryside had no phone landlines, no running water, no gas, only electricity and that only enough to power radios or light bulbs, plug in a s9 miner and you would leave a whole town in darkness  
Of course no internet, no personal computers, ..air conditioning? Lol!!!! Air conditioning?  
And yet we were not poor!
Compare that life with what a poor family has let's see who is having a more comfortable life.

At the beginning of the century, you were poor if you couldn't afford glass windows, now you're poor if you can't buy the newest Iphone! (pun!)

[Broly46]

All these talk about capitalism, yeah it’s very bad, it create wealth for the rich, but then poor stay poor, are you getting richer today compare to 2008?

And yet, we're living the best times in human history
both when it comes to poverty

or life expectancy


23 charts and maps that show the world is getting much, much better

Only one thing keeps growing every day
People preaching the doom will come just because they are envious of the others.

In this era of technological progress, we can begin to build a populist-based economic system with a foundation that helps to be a solution to overcome social injustice. One example is through equity crow funding which funds small and medium businesses. During this time the upper class exploited the groups that existed at the base of the pyramid. Consolidation of the base of the pyramid will break the chain of accumulation of wealth at the top of the pyramid. So in this economic system, consumers can also act as one of the small investors in their shop business.

Yeah, comrade! Let's burn the kulaks again and rob them and build our socialist state.
Because it has worked so many times in the past it's going for sure to fail again!
Burn the exploiters !!! Death to the upper class! Glory to the working class!
Let's fuck our countries once more and become dirt poor again so we can test again a thing that failed a hundred times in the past!

I wish I'd have a time machine and let you all travel back in time in the '80 and experience socialism as I did, then hear what you would have to say about how great it would be to have those times again.

The progress look great, keep it at that pace forever, don’t change that, and nope I’m not literature enough to read what’s the tables are showing about, I think I look very green very positive. Btw it’s what capitalism want so badly.