Bitcointalk Poker Series format discussion - Let's keep them all in one place.

[Steamtyme]

I have thought about such ideas as well. Mainly about incentives to keep the weaker and/or out-of-contention players interested and probably get new (regular) players. The best idea I could come up with, was some kind of lottery for players ranked outside of Top9 after 8 tournaments. Each player who has participated in at least 6/8 tournaments is eligible and will get "tickets" to the lottery based on his number of participations and the points he accumulated:
~snip~
The problem is........it creates additional hassle with collecting these funds, so probably not an option.

Something like this could work as a random incentive for people to keep playing. Funding it and collecting isn't much harder than the current system. It would be nice to hear if people are opposed to up front entry/league fees or not.

we're at least set on keeping 5000 chip starting stacks and the same blind structure, right?
any other thoughts on an additional buy-in to fund direct league prizes (ie top x players in points get BTC prizes)?
or about upfront league entry vs per game entry? it would be way less headache to collect fees if it were all done upfront.
~snip~

i think so too. if we coordinate with SwC beforehand they might be willing to throw us a bone. if not, should we try to fund it ourselves? 500 chips x 20 players = the 0.01 BTC prize pool we had for the first runners up game.

Yes I like the 5000 chip starting stack. Blinds structure and speed seem fine for the games overall.

The more thought I give this I think the best way to make this inclusive would be to fund a runner-up tournament for the rest of the field. We could make it 1300 with the extra 100 going to the runner-up prizepool. Say everyone who plays in at least 1/2 of the qualifiers gets auto-entry. The prizepool won't be huge but it wouldn't be nothing and could provide incentive to everyone. I like the idea of keeping any extra we get from SWC directed towards the championship; unless they offer obviously.

I understand not giving everyone a point for games played. It's not so bad if you are finishing in the top 5 or so, but it really hurts people playing the bubble who hold out for that 1 point. @Globbo if we always funded a mini-championship do you feel that would still be incentive enough if there were no points outside of the top 10?
I played the nightly seal battle on SWC last night. Took a shot and invited the table to join got no takers but Riley Reid invited me to their "fansonly"  Made me chuckle. I don't know why Regs seem opposed to taking part but I did see Bitmutiny at the tables.

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[arallmuus]

I would also like to have runners up tournament, I just don't know where to get money for it. I will be ok if do it like regular buy in but it would be much better if we manage to get some sponsor.

I would be fine with buy in but for some people that wouldnt be any different from the regular tournament and might shut them off. Plus it would be hard to get SWC to sponsor this ( or someone to sponsor this but is unlikely to happen )

The more thought I give this I think the best way to make this inclusive would be to fund a runner-up tournament for the rest of the field. We could make it 1300 with the extra 100 going to the runner-up prizepool.

Sounds good, extra 100 chips wont hurt especially when we have break this down to once a week instead of twice


Just confirming this once again, is it has been confirmed that there will only be 1 instead of 2 regular tournament per week for the 3rd series? Or are we still in discussion stage for that matter

[figmentofmyass]

I have thought about such ideas as well. Mainly about incentives to keep the weaker and/or out-of-contention players interested and probably get new (regular) players. The best idea I could come up with, was some kind of lottery for players ranked outside of Top9 after 8 tournaments. Each player who has participated in at least 6/8 tournaments is eligible and will get "tickets" to the lottery based on his number of participations and the points he accumulated:
~snip~
The problem is........it creates additional hassle with collecting these funds, so probably not an option.

Something like this could work as a random incentive for people to keep playing. Funding it and collecting isn't much harder than the current system. It would be nice to hear if people are opposed to up front entry/league fees or not.

+1. do it up front and it's not an issue. i'm just worried the people who might only play ~2-4 games won't play at all if we do it up front.

i like the idea of a random incentive, something to play towards even if you're not in contention, kinda like a bad beat jackpot or something.

The more thought I give this I think the best way to make this inclusive would be to fund a runner-up tournament for the rest of the field. We could make it 1300 with the extra 100 going to the runner-up prizepool. Say everyone who plays in at least 1/2 of the qualifiers gets auto-entry. The prizepool won't be huge but it wouldn't be nothing and could provide incentive to everyone. I like the idea of keeping any extra we get from SWC directed towards the championship; unless they offer obviously.

i'm on board with this. it would probably net a ~0.015+ BTC prize pool.

I understand not giving everyone a point for games played. It's not so bad if you are finishing in the top 5 or so, but it really hurts people playing the bubble who hold out for that 1 point.

it's not a big deal for me if we weight the top places. we just have to do it right.

the one positive thing about a system like that is it probably reduces the "points bubble" effect, when everyone gets all nitty around places 11-12.

Took a shot and invited the table to join got no takers but Riley Reid invited me to their "fansonly"   Made me chuckle. I don't know why Regs seem opposed to taking part but I did see Bitmutiny at the tables.

they're too cool for bitcointalk.

[Trofo]

Don't know if you guys seen it but Steve has been a gentlemen and invited all of us to very nice tournament on Sportsbet. It is this Sunday evening 2 hours later then our usual games. 2 mBTC buy in and 1 BTC in prizes + Watford FC jersey for basically all registered players if I got it correct. That is an offer I can't pass by and probably most of you as well. I propose to give efi some more time to arrange everything with SwC and start our series next week so we can give our best on this one this week. Linking par of the original post below, and hope to see all our regulars.

Hi Guys,
Also, a surprise for you guys only here on BTC Talk forum.. we have a separate private poker tournament being run Sunday afternoon and the Marketing team reached out to me and asked if you guys would be interested in joining and playing..
I said 'sure they will'!!  A massive prize pool on offer too.. 1 BTC prize pool!

For existing players, you get the bonus of not having to create a new sportsbet.io account.
Check out this link for more details and the password >> https://www.whatbitcoindid.com/sportsbet

A big big weekend ahead and good luck!

regards,

Steve.
Sportsbet.io

[figmentofmyass]

Don't know if you guys seen it but Steve has been a gentlemen and invited all of us to very nice tournament on Sportsbet. It is this Sunday evening 2 hours later then our usual games. 2 mBTC buy in and 1 BTC in prizes + Watford FC jersey for basically all registered players if I got it correct. That is an offer I can't pass by and probably most of you as well.

i'll be there for sure. i'm anticipating a huge overlay, maybe 0.8 BTC or more, considering the weekly freeroll only draws 200 runners. i can't really take delivery on a jersey (i'm in the states, shhh!) but oh well. the prize pool is fat enough on its own.

I propose to give efi some more time to arrange everything with SwC and start our series next week so we can give our best on this one this week.

there's no way anything will happen with the series by this weekend anyway---next weekend at the earliest.

i hope we can hammer out some of these league/format decisions in the next few days so we're all set for the 21st.

[Betwrong]

Don't know if you guys seen it but Steve has been a gentlemen and invited all of us to very nice tournament on Sportsbet. It is this Sunday evening 2 hours later then our usual games. 2 mBTC buy in and 1 BTC in prizes + Watford FC jersey for basically all registered players if I got it correct. That is an offer I can't pass by and probably most of you as well.

i'll be there for sure. i'm anticipating a huge overlay, maybe 0.8 BTC or more, considering the weekly freeroll only draws 200 runners. i can't really take delivery on a jersey (i'm in the states, shhh!) but oh well. the prize pool is fat enough on its own.

There are 12 entrants already currently, and I expect something in this range, 19-27 players, when the tournament will start(there is no late registration there). The prize structure for this range is as following:



It's very tempting to take part, and maybe I will(my balance on Sportsbet is several times higher than the buy-in, 2k chips), but normally I don't risk almost $20 at once because it is far greater than what I can afford to lose to gambling in one day. Well, maybe once in a year I can make an exception, we'll see.


As for the format of our series, I will accept any, just to play with you guys once again. To me, our series is not about money. I was out on the 4th place in the latest Grand Finale(with 3 places paid), and I was happy. I mean, it was unexpected, to tell the truth, I should have been frustrated, but I wasn't. That's a fact. I told my wife that the 4th place among 9 finalists, all of whom were good players, was a good achievement. And she believed me because she saw how happy I was.

[Trofo]

i'll be there for sure. i'm anticipating a huge overlay, maybe 0.8 BTC or more, considering the weekly freeroll only draws 200 runners. i can't really take delivery on a jersey (i'm in the states, shhh!) but oh well. the prize pool is fat enough on its own.

There are 12 entrants already currently, and I expect something in this range, 19-27 players, when the tournament will start(there is no late registration there). The prize structure for this range is as following:

I am expecting much more players, this is on done on Sportsbet and they have a lot of high rollers there, 2 mBTC is nothing for most of them. After all the prize is big and for that 20$ you get a free Watford FC shirt which costs around 100$ I guess. Of course if you don't mind giving an address and phone number.

Last time they had this tournament it was a freeroll and there was 500 participants.

Anyway, I'll take my shot at the prize and collect my free jersey at least.

[tyKiwanuka]

I am expecting much more players, this is on done on Sportsbet and they have a lot of high rollers there, 2 mBTC is nothing for most of them. After all the prize is big and for that 20$ you get a free Watford FC shirt which costs around 100$ I guess. Of course if you don't mind giving an address and phone number.

Last time they had this tournament it was a freeroll and there was 500 participants.

Anyway, I'll take my shot at the prize and collect my free jersey at least.

I too think, that it will be way more players, hundreds maybe.

Are you sure that this jersey is like a real on-field Watford jersey ? I can't imagine that tbh They just say "shirt" and I think it's just some basic T-shirt with some Watford logo.


For our poker series Sportsbet would be the better place to play I think in terms of some sponsoring and also attracting new/more players. They are very generous with all their promotions etc. and they have quite a huge customer base and could promote us in their BTT thread etc. But their poker software is just very annoying and I don't enjoy playing there at all unfortunately.

[efialtis]

Okay guys, sorry for me being "quiet" - I have now read through all the posts and I appreciate all the thoughts you are putting into this - the only downside here... There is no real "consensus" as to how the new serious should look like.

@tyKiwanuka I dont think our prizes are bad tbh and I had talks with sportsbet, they weren't too interested plus their software sucks big time indeed...

Some quick thoughts here:

- I also think/thought one tournament per week may be a nicer option BUT... would 4 tournaments per series be ideal? Probably not... Would it be ideal to have a series running over 2 months to make it 8 tournaments? Probably not... Another thing - with only 4 tournaments per series and current buy-in structure, well, I am not sure how happy SwC will be about sponsoring 0.05 BTC for the Grand Final

- Don't worry about runners-up tournament - there will be one next time, I will take care of that

- Do you think we really need to adapt the current points/leaderboard structure?

- I have thought about it and I really didn't come up with a solution regarding those extra chips BUT... I will just keep collecting the chips, no problem. All regulars will receive passwords in advance

@tyKiwanuka I LOVE that lottery idea and since I just stated I will keep collecting the extra chips, I don't mind collecting these funds. Question: Would you guys be okay with paying 300 extra chips and take aside 100 for the lottery or would you prefer deducting 100 chips from the Grand Final prize pool?

[Globb0]

I had talks with sportsbet, they weren't too interested plus their software sucks big time indeed...

Also couldn't join this from the uk. Redirects to a no poker version. I don't know what other countries are affected.

[Trofo]

@tyKiwanuka I dont think our prizes are bad tbh and I had talks with sportsbet, they weren't too interested plus their software sucks big time indeed...

Some quick thoughts here:

- I also think/thought one tournament per week may be a nicer option BUT... would 4 tournaments per series be ideal? Probably not... Would it be ideal to have a series running over 2 months to make it 8 tournaments? Probably not... Another thing - with only 4 tournaments per series and current buy-in structure, well, I am not sure how happy SwC will be about sponsoring 0.05 BTC for the Grand Final

- Don't worry about runners-up tournament - there will be one next time, I will take care of that

- Do you think we really need to adapt the current points/leaderboard structure?

- I have thought about it and I really didn't come up with a solution regarding those extra chips BUT... I will just keep collecting the chips, no problem. All regulars will receive passwords in advance

@tyKiwanuka I LOVE that lottery idea and since I just stated I will keep collecting the extra chips, I don't mind collecting these funds. Question: Would you guys be okay with paying 300 extra chips and take aside 100 for the lottery or would you prefer deducting 100 chips from the Grand Final prize pool?

SwC definitely has much better poker client than Sportsbet, especially if you take into account Sportsbet availability from some countries.

Definitely one tournament per week, more than that and I feel a lot of us would be unable to attend.

You don't have to limit series with time (1 month or 2). I personally don't care how long the series will run. Longer it runs we will have better prizes. I would talk with SwC and ask them to offer some sponsorship depending on length of the series. For me minimum would be maybe 4 tournaments, less than that really doesn't make sense and maximum would be maybe 10 tournaments. This would stretch our series a lot but if we get a nice extra bonus for the final table (and runners up table) I would be more than ok with it.

Points/leaderboard structure is OK for me as it is, but I understand the appeal of participation point as well. If that one extra point for participation means we will have few more players I would adapt it without second thoughts. First place gets fixed amount of points (10 or max 15) and then after place 10 you just award a single point to all that participated. Bonus from this point structure is that weakly tournaments would probably have bigger participation and consequently bigger rewards.

[Steamtyme]

In regards to the series structure. What if we went to 6 or 7 qualifiers. I personally don't mind if the series runs over the course of 2 months but could understand if others feel it's stretched out to long.

I'm good with the lottery. If we know that there will be a runners up tournament how big does this need to be. I always just think of keeping entry low. Is 1250 chips enough with 50 going to the lottery?

Either way let me know and I'll be there.

[tyKiwanuka]

@tyKiwanuka I dont think our prizes are bad tbh

Hehe, not at all, don't get me wrong. SwC has been very generous and you did a fantastic job organizing all this sponsoring. I am happy with the way the series is all in all, but the trend shows some decline in participants and how do you get more people to join and stay around ? Money Money always works.

But there is the "Quadratur des Kreises", where you need to make everyone happy with low entry fees - low entry fees to keep attracting new players. And then the winners also want to win more than their entry fee^^ So with the "fixed" sponsoring we get from SwC, we would need to up the fees we pay and I am fine with that.

I think this series works with a minimum of 18 regular players, but anything lower than that probably not longterm. And then again, the series doesn't work with like 100 regular participants imo unless you make big changes (to internal point structure mainly). So there needs to be some equilibrium.

- Don't worry about runners-up tournament - there will be one next time, I will take care of that

Good news. Here needs to be some rule then as well, like minimum of 6/8 tournaments played or whatever.


My proposal

- Entry fee: 1300
- 100 chips go to Grand Final
- 200 chips go to lottery
- there will be a small final (sponsored by SwC ?) for all participants that joined minimum 6/8 tournaments
- every participant is eligible for lottery, tickets are based on # of participations and points accumulated

For the series #2, this would transfer to:

- 14,500 chips additional prize money for Grand Final
- eligible for small final: tyKiwanuka, SyGambler, Improved, Trofo, BitcoinGirlClub, morvillz7z, jayce (too few, but should get better with new structure then)
- 29,000 chips for the lottery and the following number of tickets per user:

- per every 10k chips, one prize is created for the lottery, so 29k chips = 3 prizes á 9666 chips, only one prize per user max.
- the overall prize money for Grand Final would be a bit lower then, but these players can still get prize from lottery

[figmentofmyass]

@tyKiwanuka I dont think our prizes are bad tbh and I had talks with sportsbet, they weren't too interested plus their software sucks big time indeed...

+1, it's just awful. i hope for their sake they have plans to revamp it or find a new software provider. i'm sure it's part of the reason their poker room traffic is so low.

Would it be ideal to have a series running over 2 months to make it 8 tournaments? Probably not...

i actually thought this is what we were doing---a weekly game + finale in 2 months. that's cool with me. 4 games is definitely too short.

i'm also fine with 2 games per week but i know some people can't free up that much time. therein lies the problem.

- Don't worry about runners-up tournament - there will be one next time, I will take care of that

great news!

- Do you think we really need to adapt the current points/leaderboard structure?

not a big issue, but i can understand the desire to smooth out variance a bit and award for points.

@tyKiwanuka I LOVE that lottery idea and since I just stated I will keep collecting the extra chips, I don't mind collecting these funds. Question: Would you guys be okay with paying 300 extra chips and take aside 100 for the lottery or would you prefer deducting 100 chips from the Grand Final prize pool?

i prefer paying the extra chips.

- eligible for small final: tyKiwanuka, SyGambler, Improved, Trofo, BitcoinGirlClub, morvillz7z, jayce (too few, but should get better with new structure

i think everyone who meets the minimum requirements should be eligible. it would be a nice consolation for those who don't cash in the final.

[iv4n]

I don't think we should touch those 200 chips per tournament for grand prize. Lottery sounds like a good idea, but maybe it would be better to add more chips for that? Another 100 or 200 chips?!
8 tournaments in one month or two months is something to think about? Maybe to find some middle and play 10-12 tournaments in 2 months? Or it sounds like a stupid suggestion?

First week without our tournament, I can say I miss it already! I played all tournaments, and I will try to play all future ones, with any kind of structure. As a player I think we have a great tournament, without re-buys, add-ons, for me that's a true poker! We don't even need that late registration, who sits on time will play!

I hope we will play next weekend!

[figmentofmyass]

I don't think we should touch those 200 chips per tournament for grand prize. Lottery sounds like a good idea, but maybe it would be better to add more chips for that? Another 100 or 200 chips?!

+1, i don't wanna take away from the championship prize pool. that should still be the #1 incentive. i'm okay with adding an additional buy-in of 100 or 200 chips. so 1300-1400 chips total per game.

Also couldn't join this from the uk. Redirects to a no poker version. I don't know what other countries are affected.

VPN from germany seems to consistently work, although i am slightly paranoid about having to withdraw larger amounts without KYC.

per every 10k chips, one prize is created for the lottery, so 29k chips = 3 prizes á 9666 chips, only one prize per user max.

aiming for 3 prizes is probably a good structure. at first i was thinking flatter maybe (more prizes) but nearly paying for all the series buy-ins seems like a good lottery prize.

how does everyone feel about 1000 chips regular buy-in, 200 chips towards the championship, and 200 chips towards the lottery? = 1400 chips total per game.

[Betwrong]

~

per every 10k chips, one prize is created for the lottery, so 29k chips = 3 prizes á 9666 chips, only one prize per user max.

aiming for 3 prizes is probably a good structure. at first i was thinking flatter maybe (more prizes) but nearly paying for all the series buy-ins seems like a good lottery prize.

how does everyone feel about 1000 chips regular buy-in, 200 chips towards the championship, and 200 chips towards the lottery? = 1400 chips total per game.

Same as @Steamtyme, I always think of keeping entry as low as possible. But since we'll have one game per week instead of two, it means we'll pay 1400 chips per week instead of 2400(1200+1200), so i'm totally okay with that.

I agree with @iv4n and @FOMA that we shouldn't deduct anything from those 200 chips going to the prize pool of the Grand Finale.

Regarding the lottery, while thinking it's a great idea, and that @tyKiwanuka proposed a perfect structure for the tickets distribution, I suggest you guys to consider making it all less luck based. What if the money collected for the lottery would go to the runners-up tournament prize pool instead?

[Trofo]

Regarding the lottery, while thinking it's a great idea, and that @tyKiwanuka proposed a perfect structure for the tickets distribution, I suggest you guys to consider making it all less luck based. What if the money collected for the lottery would go to the runners-up tournament prize pool instead?

If you want to make it less luck based then we should play a big league of 20 tournaments and award first x places and that is it. That way quality would show itself on a large amount of tournaments and we would minimize the luck component.

I prefer the structure we have now, poker is in itself a nice balance of luck and quality and our series in current format captures it perfectly. Lottery is something extra to give a chance to regulars who don't have the results to get some extra money.

Anyway, my only real deal breaker would be if play more than one tournament per week or if we change the start of the tournament to something in the middle of night for me. All other stuff like amount of buy in or points structure I can live with and will participate in probably all the tournaments no matter what gets implemented in the end.

[tyKiwanuka]

What if the money collected for the lottery would go to the runners-up tournament prize pool instead?

Then the difference between Grand and small Final isn't that big anymore, which it should be though imo. And upping the prize pool for small final won't help the weaker players - they have no incentive to participate regularly in the tournaments, because they see no way of getting any money in return ever.

A lottery gives them the incentive to participate and even if they don't finish in the points and thus have no shot at the Grand Final, they will get tickets for the lottery with each participation. (And a spot for small final)

You need to have a good foundation for such a series, i.e. regular players. The players that will leave, are the ones that only ever contribute to the pot, but never (are able to) take anything out of it. You have to make sure, that these players have an incentive to keep playing. A lottery (maybe) does that.

[iv4n]

If you want to make it less luck based then we should play a big league of 20 tournaments and award first x places and that is it. That way quality would show itself on a large amount of tournaments and we would minimize the luck component.

I like how that sounds, I would like to play entire season with you people, for six months, tournament every week!

Many good suggestions, but someone has to collect money, to update spreadsheet... to talk with SwC, with players... I would add 100 chips (or more) for the jar! Is it how you say it in English? Someone to be paid for this work, to promote tournament, to do everything related with tournament..
For good organization we need money, and we need someone to work for that entire time! Efi and Ty did a great job for free, at least free entry for them would be a good thing.

I have a feeling that either we will make something big here, or we will just abandon all this!