High Fees Are Killing Adoption in South America (and the 3rd world in general)

[Lunatic_Pandora]

Let me start this by saying I live in a particular socialist paradise in South America, up until recently there had been excitement among certain normie circles, and I managed to introduce a couple of dozen people into cryptocurrency just in 2020 alone.

This all has been changing since the halving and something needs to be done about this - Wages in the third world, in general, are low, you can't expect someone to put up with a $3 transaction fee when they are only able to earn $20-30 bucks a month or less and Venezuela is not the only country heading this way. I have friends in Argentina that are starting to struggle with their bitcoin transactions and justifying when their minimum wage has gone down from $500 to $150 in 3 years.

It feels like fiat currencies are collapsing and this should be the time for BTC and crypto in general to shine but instead adoption is being slowed down by a relatively flawed economic incentives system and greedy miners... Where is the lighting network?

[bithisach]

Let me start this by saying I live in a particular socialist paradise in South America, up until recently there had been excitement among certain normie circles, and I managed to introduce a couple of dozen people into cryptocurrency just in 2020 alone.

This all has been changing since the halving and something needs to be done about this - Wages in the third world, in general, are low, you can't expect someone to put up with a $3 transaction fee when they are only able to earn $20-30 bucks a month or less and Venezuela is not the only country heading this way. I have friends in Argentina that are starting to struggle with their bitcoin transactions and justifying when their minimum wage has gone down from $500 to $150 in 3 years.

It feels like fiat currencies are collapsing and this should be the time for BTC and crypto in general to shine but instead adoption is being slowed down by a relatively flawed economic incentives system and greedy miners... Where is the lighting network?

I agree, not just LATAM but Asian and African citizens will get turned away by high fees, that's just the way it is. The whole point of BTC and crypto was to be able to compete with current financial solutions, putting a $5 tag for transactions makes transaction costs like PayPal's seem reasonable (which btw isn't at all). But we've been here before, people are panicky. Let's see how this looks a few months down the line once the dust has settled both around the Halvening and Covid.

Or in case dust doesn't settle and shit starts to go sideways, we'll also see.

[Lunatic_Pandora]

That why I added "and the 3rd world in general" If it is bad in South America, Idk how the African crypto communities are dealing with it. I know Nigeria has a huge crypto community and a $3+ price tag on a single transaction hurts real bad. I assume the situation is similar in South Asia and SEA.

[GreatArkansas]

It feels like fiat currencies are collapsing and this should be the time for BTC and crypto in general to shine but instead adoption is being slowed down by a relatively flawed economic incentives system and greedy miners... Where is the lighting network?

I feel you, living in third world countries and those figures on just transaction fees is already expensive.
Having huge transaction fees on Bitcoin is really a pain in the ass especially even you will just move a few amounts, I feel you.
About the lightning network which runs on the top of Bitcoin, for me, it's still not that so popular so there are still few people using it.
But as the time goes by, people using the lightning networks are increasing, and let's hope that using the lightning network will become easy especially settings up your channel, send/receive.

[Artemis3]

Let me start this by saying I live in a particular socialist paradise in South America, up until recently there had been excitement among certain normie circles, and I managed to introduce a couple of dozen people into cryptocurrency just in 2020 alone.

This all has been changing since the halving and something needs to be done about this - Wages in the third world, in general, are low, you can't expect someone to put up with a $3 transaction fee when they are only able to earn $20-30 bucks a month or less and Venezuela is not the only country heading this way. I have friends in Argentina that are starting to struggle with their bitcoin transactions and justifying when their minimum wage has gone down from $500 to $150 in 3 years.

It feels like fiat currencies are collapsing and this should be the time for BTC and crypto in general to shine but instead adoption is being slowed down by a relatively flawed economic incentives system and greedy miners... Where is the lighting network?

Here is your problem: Ignorance. Why? The transaction fee can be set in the wallets you use to send funds from. It is incredible the many times the likes of you make me repeat this simple fact again and again and again. You DON'T need instant transactions.

Now take a decent wallet, such as Electrum, preferably under a decent OS such as Linux, and change the configuration so you use a manual fee, not a network guess of any kind. There, you are going to type 1 sat/B, which results in typically a couple of USD cents. Electrum a couple more options that can help reduce fees.

And yes, make sure, absolutely sure, you are using a bech32 Segwit address. Your bitcoin address should start with bc1, not 1 or 3, because every tiny little satoshi counts.

And teach your friends in Argentina this lesson. Repeat after me: You DON'T need instant transactions. There is only one fee that matters: 1 sat/B. Set it, send it, check back tomorrow or the day after that, I'll eventually reach, no matter what. Its faster than wire transfers, and cheaper than Airtm, Western Union or the likes.

You cannot have $3 fees without you foolishly letting the wallet pick it for you. Do not let the wallet guess whats best, and if your wallet sucks, change it.

Also you are incorrect. The minimal wage in Venezuela is about 2 USD per month now, you already paid more in the fee because you didn't know how to set a fee manually. And the day is coming when we will be able to set 0.1 sat/B...

Always plan things ahead and stop whining. Bitcoin works far better than the alternatives...

[Lunatic_Pandora]

Let me start this by saying I live in a particular socialist paradise in South America, up until recently there had been excitement among certain normie circles, and I managed to introduce a couple of dozen people into cryptocurrency just in 2020 alone.

This all has been changing since the halving and something needs to be done about this - Wages in the third world, in general, are low, you can't expect someone to put up with a $3 transaction fee when they are only able to earn $20-30 bucks a month or less and Venezuela is not the only country heading this way. I have friends in Argentina that are starting to struggle with their bitcoin transactions and justifying when their minimum wage has gone down from $500 to $150 in 3 years.

It feels like fiat currencies are collapsing and this should be the time for BTC and crypto in general to shine but instead adoption is being slowed down by a relatively flawed economic incentives system and greedy miners... Where is the lighting network?

Here is your problem: Ignorance. Why? The transaction fee can be set in the wallets you use to send funds from. It is incredible the many times the likes of you make me repeat this simple fact again and again and again. You DON'T need instant transactions.

Now take a decent wallet, such as Electrum, preferably under a decent OS such as Linux, and change the configuration so you use a manual fee, not a network guess of any kind. There, you are going to type 1 sat/B, which results in typically a couple of USD cents. Electrum a couple more options that can help reduce fees.

And yes, make sure, absolutely sure, you are using a bech32 Segwit address. Your bitcoin address should start with bc1, not 1 or 3, because every tiny little satoshi counts.

And teach your friends in Argentina this lesson. Repeat after me: You DON'T need instant transactions. There is only one fee that matters: 1 sat/B. Set it, send it, check back tomorrow or the day after that, I'll eventually reach, no matter what. Its faster than wire transfers, and cheaper than Airtm, Western Union or the likes.

You cannot have $3 fees without you foolishly letting the wallet pick it for you. Do not let the wallet guess whats best, and if your wallet sucks, change it.

Also you are incorrect. The minimal wage in Venezuela is about 2 USD per month now, you already paid more in the fee because you didn't know how to set a fee manually. And the day is coming when we will be able to set 0.1 sat/B...

Always plan things ahead and stop whining. Bitcoin works far better than the alternatives...

You might be right - but not every user will become educated in this, its unrealistic to believe that.

Also - I'm from Venezuela and at today's rates, the minimum wage is at $4 and no one earns just that or else we would have thousands of people a day dying of hunger because you can barely get a 2lt coke with that. Everyone has a side hustle or lives with support from the 6m exyles or works online making what they can.

[Little Mouse]

Here is your problem: Ignorance. Why? The transaction fee can be set in the wallets you use to send funds from. It is incredible the many times the likes of you make me repeat this simple fact again and again and again. You DON'T need instant transactions.

Now take a decent wallet, such as Electrum, preferably under a decent OS such as Linux, and change the configuration so you use a manual fee, not a network guess of any kind. There, you are going to type 1 sat/B, which results in typically a couple of USD cents. Electrum a couple more options that can help reduce fees.

You are underestimating OP. He is correct that fee is too high. You are correct that low fee can be used but with low fee, tx will not be confirmed. And with unconfirmed tx, you can do nothing again without spending another good amount of fee.
Would you accept a payment with zero confirmation? I think no one would at least on such a time when fee is too high. If someone use 1sat/byte and the tx do not confirm, later, they can use the same input to send another address which is why it is easy to scam anyone by pretending to send BTC while it is with low fee.

And teach your friends in Argentina this lesson. Repeat after me: You DON'T need instant transactions. There is only one fee that matters: 1 sat/B. Set it, send it, check back tomorrow or the day after that, I'll eventually reach, no matter what.

I had a tx unconfirmed for 3 days, I used 1sat/byte. Later I had increase the fee. It is not always work in same direction.

[mk4]

Wages in the third world, in general, are low, you can't expect someone to put up with a $3 transaction fee when they are only able to earn $20-30 bucks a month or less and Venezuela is not the only country heading this way.

Since when are people required to pay a $3 transaction fee anyway? You're probably stuck in 2017. Seriously most people making this argument are the people who doesn't do any bitcoin transactions at all(probably besides exchange withdrawals).

Also, lightning. If people used great newbie wallets like Phoenix, things would be easier.

[Lunatic_Pandora]

Wages in the third world, in general, are low, you can't expect someone to put up with a $3 transaction fee when they are only able to earn $20-30 bucks a month or less and Venezuela is not the only country heading this way.

Since when are people required to pay a $3 transaction fee anyway? You're probably stuck in 2017. Seriously most people making this argument are the people who doesn't do any bitcoin transactions at all(probably besides exchange withdrawals).

Also, lightning. If people used great newbie wallets like Phoenix, things would be easier.

I have helped a couple of businesses in my area setup BTC wallets and usually pay them in BTC, they even give me the goods before paying because they know me but to any other person they wait for at least 1 confirmation and any business person should do the same. BTC -> Fiat exchanges in Venezuela also wait for 3 confirmations before handing you fiat. No business will proceed with a transaction that might or might not be completed.

[Little Mouse]

Since when are people required to pay a $3 transaction fee anyway? You're probably stuck in 2017. Seriously most people making this argument are the people who doesn't do any bitcoin transactions at all(probably besides exchange withdrawals).

Fee is not fixed. For faster confirmation, it was almost same couple of days back. Leave OP words but if you think about purchasing $10 worth of things and had to pay even $1 worth of BTC as fee, that's too high. It is not unusual that 2017 will be back again.

[Artemis3]

Also - I'm from Venezuela and at today's rates, the minimum wage is at $4 and no one earns just that or else we would have thousands of people a day dying of hunger because you can barely get a 2lt coke with that. Everyone has a side hustle or lives with support from the 6m exyles or works online making what they can.

No, its $2. 400 000 bolivares + 400 000 food tickets. 1 USD is about 200 000 VES, therefore 2 in "cash", 2 in food stamp equivalent.
Skip your drama and perhaps head over to the Spanish language area.

The exchange rate against bitcoin would be about 17 bolivares per satoshi. Now get a clue and teach others properly. This is not Bitcoin's fault, its the wallet developers fault for setting the network guessing thing as default, when it used to be manual.

[Lunatic_Pandora]

Also - I'm from Venezuela and at today's rates, the minimum wage is at $4 and no one earns just that or else we would have thousands of people a day dying of hunger because you can barely get a 2lt coke with that. Everyone has a side hustle or lives with support from the 6m exyles or works online making what they can.

No, its $2. 400 000 bolivares + 400 000 food tickets. 1 USD is about 200 000 VES, therefore 2 in "cash", 2 in food stamp equivalent.
Skip your drama and perhaps head over to the Spanish language area.

The exchange rate against bitcoin would be about 17 bolivares per satoshi. Now get a clue and teach others properly. This is not Bitcoin's fault, its the wallet developers fault for setting the network guessing thing as default, when it used to be manual.

Drama? are you having an aneurysm? I count the food stamps as part of the minimum wage anyways. Why don't you go to the Spanish language area yourself?

[Artemis3]

You are underestimating OP. He is correct that fee is too high. You are correct that low fee can be used but with low fee, tx will not be confirmed. And with unconfirmed tx, you can do nothing again without spending another good amount of fee.
Would you accept a payment with zero confirmation? I think no one would at least on such a time when fee is too high. If someone use 1sat/byte and the tx do not confirm, later, they can use the same input to send another address which is why it is easy to scam anyone by pretending to send BTC while it is with low fee.

This is false. Again, ignorance. Any fee above zero will get confirmed, eventually. Only zero fees are dropped, and even when some nodes may drop low fees, other nodes pick them as long as they are not zero, which means, they will get confirmed. Also, the (decent) wallets keep trying. There is absolutely nothing to worry about unless the sender has malicious intent of double spending, which is why you must always wait for one confirmation. Once one confirmation occurs, the rest come quickly. I didn't say accept no confirmation transactions, i did say WAIT.

Again, you are wrong and are spreading a lie here. No broadcasts with a fee of any kind will get lost or need to be resent AT ALL.

99% of my transactions have been done at 1 sat/B, some wallets let you increase the fee later if you are somehow in a hurry. By default, transactions don't need to be instant. It is ignorance that is eating your money in fees, not Bitcoin. You "think" your transaction would get lost, but you are wrong.

3 days is nothing, in 2018 you could easily wait two weeks. Did they pass? Yes they did, because i did such transactions.

[Lunatic_Pandora]

You are underestimating OP. He is correct that fee is too high. You are correct that low fee can be used but with low fee, tx will not be confirmed. And with unconfirmed tx, you can do nothing again without spending another good amount of fee.
Would you accept a payment with zero confirmation? I think no one would at least on such a time when fee is too high. If someone use 1sat/byte and the tx do not confirm, later, they can use the same input to send another address which is why it is easy to scam anyone by pretending to send BTC while it is with low fee.

This is false. Again, ignorance. Any fee above zero will get confirmed, eventually. Only zero fees are dropped, and even when some nodes may drop low fees, other nodes pick them as long as they are not zero, which means, they will get confirmed. Also, the (decent) wallets keep trying. There is absolutely nothing to worry about unless the sender has malicious intent of double spending, which is why you must always wait for one confirmation. Once one confirmation occurs, the rest come quickly. I didn't say accept no confirmation transactions, i did say WAIT.

Again, you are wrong and are spreading a lie here. No broadcasts with a fee of any kind will get lost or need to be resent AT ALL.

99% of my transactions have been done at 1 sat/B, some wallets let you increase the fee later if you are somehow in a hurry. By default, transactions don't need to be instant. It is ignorance that is eating your money in fees, not Bitcoin. You "think" your transaction would get lost, but you are wrong.

I'm starting to think that you're the one that has never used Bitcoin for a real-world transaction 🤣

[The1Duke]

I agree, not just LATAM but Asian and African citizens will get turned away by high fees, that's just the way it is. The whole point of BTC and crypto was to be able to compete with current financial solutions, putting a $5 tag for transactions makes transaction costs like PayPal's seem reasonable (which btw isn't at all). But we've been here before, people are panicky. Let's see how this looks a few months down the line once the dust has settled both around the Halvening and Covid.

Or in case dust doesn't settle and shit starts to go sideways, we'll also see.

I take issue with just accepting it because "that's just the way it is.",  but I agree it is still more reasonable that Paypal's existence as a whole, and that people are overreacting to this.

You DON'T need instant transactions

Except, you do? For any realistic use you want to give to it. You can't just have people wait up to two weeks for a confirmation or normies to just accept this. Your help to get around this is issue is greatly appreciated, but you could do without the attitude.

[Artemis3]

I'm starting to think that you're the one that has never used Bitcoin for a real-world transaction 🤣

Says the newbie who can't even find out where to set the transaction fees in a wallet... Get a clue.

[mk4]

I have helped a couple of businesses in my area setup BTC wallets and usually pay them in BTC, they even give me the goods before paying because they know me but to any other person they wait for at least 1 confirmation and any business person should do the same. BTC -> Fiat exchanges in Venezuela also wait for 3 confirmations before handing you fiat. No business will proceed with a transaction that might or might not be completed.

Hmm. I guess it's understandable when talking about face-to-face transactions. But then again, while lightning is not in it's best state right now, it's definitely usable. It's just depends if the people are actually willing to learn to use Lightning, but the tech is here, and people can use it if they want to.

[Little Mouse]

This is false. Again, ignorance.

Man, if you do not understand what I said above, use google translator, jokes apart  
Have you seen the title? Seen the word adoption there? If so, you would not argue with your repetitive statements. No one said that with 1 sat/byte, tx will not confirm. Fee less tx was possible back in the day. The problem is IGNORANCE. You never read what the hell we talked. I am sure you never used BTC in real life.

[Lunatic_Pandora]

I'm starting to think that you're the one that has never used Bitcoin for a real-world transaction 🤣

Says the newbie who can't even find out where to set the transaction fees in a wallet... Get a clue.

"Newbie" by forum standards, I can set my fees but real-world transactions require immediacy. Try trying to buy stuff in a store that takes BTC and sit there waiting for hours for your $10 to confirm.

[Vod]

It feels like fiat currencies are collapsing and this should be the time for BTC and crypto in general to shine but instead adoption is being slowed down by a relatively flawed economic incentives system and greedy miners... Where is the lighting network?

If you can provide a cryptographic way to link an address to a location, even temporarily, blockchain services can offer reduced rates (i.e. 90% off) for users in that location.