!!! BC.GAME SCAM - CRASH GAME NOT PROVABLY FAIR + DECEIVING BITCOINTALK USERS

[vicknick]

I recently had a look at BC.Game provably fair system. When I checked their crash game provably fair system, I found that the crash game doesn't satisfy provably fair criteria. I am not sure if they overlooked this part, or they intentionally trying to deceive users, so I messaged their customer support, who told me he will inform their developer to have a look. After quite some time, one of their support (or developer?) replied back to me, saying since it is a multiplayer game, their crash game doesn't need any client seed, unlike their individual games.

From this point, it is fair to say that they either 1) don't understand fully how provably fair works, in which case they should really stop the game until they understand it, or 2) they are trying to deceive players, especially BitcoinTalk users into having false sense of security.

As you probably know, any provably fair system will need some sort of client seed not known/ unguessable and cannot be controlled by the casino, to ensure the results are random and not known to the casino beforehand. BC.Game only uses the 10 millions server hash to generate the result without any client seed. This gave them opportunity to know all the bet results chain beforehand, and could keep on searching for a hash chain that would generate a results chain favorable to them.

Their verifier code (https://bcsnproject.github.io/bcgame-crash/) shows that they didn't use client seed, and when you entered the game hash it output the correct result, meaning they are using this code without client seed to generate result. On other hand, their BitcoinTalk page (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088875.80, page 5) shows that they uses client seed of Block 582,678, but if you were to run this code with their game hash, it doesn't output the same result.

I have used third-party software to archived their website and all info. This is done so that 1) if they have changed their website info I still have a record to show, and 2) prevent them from saying I changed their website info such as using google inspector, since the info is captured by third-party which can't be changed.

Below are some screenshots for your info. You can check them yourself by visiting their website, until they changed their website info and code.

[akhjob]

I think you possibly misinterpreted how crash games work. Crash game is not similar to dice where you have a server seed and client seed. Crash games have a chain of server seeds and they don't have client seeds, as the output has to be same for all the users who make a bet on a particular server seed. If they use client seeds the output of a particular seed will be different for different users. So instead of using client seeds, they use the hash of a future bitcoin block into the algorithm so that output is the same for all the users and provably fair. Other popular crash games like bustabit, stake etc, have also used the hash of a future bitcoin block instead of client seeds.

[EliteCrash]

I think you possibly misinterpreted how crash games work. Crash game is not similar to dice where you have a server seed and client seed. Crash games have a chain of server seeds and they don't have client seeds, as the output has to be same for all the users who make a bet on a particular server seed. If they use client seeds the output of a particular seed will be different for different users. So instead of using client seeds, they use the hash of a future bitcoin block into the algorithm so that output is the same for all the users and provably fair. Other popular crash games like bustabit, stake etc, have also used the hash of a future bitcoin block instead of client seeds.

I think your misinterpreting his post as well, if you read it you would also notice he refers to the block number they used but it doesn't match the games hash either.
I have not checked out whether they don't actually match though so will have to look in to that to verify.

[Stunna]

I think you possibly misinterpreted how crash games work. Crash game is not similar to dice where you have a server seed and client seed. Crash games have a chain of server seeds and they don't have client seeds, as the output has to be same for all the users who make a bet on a particular server seed. If they use client seeds the output of a particular seed will be different for different users. So instead of using client seeds, they use the hash of a future bitcoin block into the algorithm so that output is the same for all the users and provably fair. Other popular crash games like bustabit, stake etc, have also used the hash of a future bitcoin block instead of client seeds.

Crash uses a client seed, it is always the same one for every bet. It doesn't look like there was a seeding event for their crash game

Rhavar pointed this out in the past, he actually pointed out a few flaws in their fairness which had a 100 ETH bounty offered but it seems they kept brushing him off. I see that they updated their fairness for other multiplayer games using the correct seeding event/scheme but crash must have been left unchanged.

Why the house should not be trusted to choose this seed: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088875.msg49092702#msg49092702

[akhjob]

I think you possibly misinterpreted how crash games work. Crash game is not similar to dice where you have a server seed and client seed. Crash games have a chain of server seeds and they don't have client seeds, as the output has to be same for all the users who make a bet on a particular server seed. If they use client seeds the output of a particular seed will be different for different users. So instead of using client seeds, they use the hash of a future bitcoin block into the algorithm so that output is the same for all the users and provably fair. Other popular crash games like bustabit, stake etc, have also used the hash of a future bitcoin block instead of client seeds.

Crash uses a client seed, it is always the same one for every bet.

By client seed, you mean the hash of a future bitcoin block right? That's what I have mentioned in my previous post. In case of Stake, it's Block 584,500 ie. 0000000000000000001b34dc6a1e86083f95500b096231436e9b25cbdd0075c4.

Rhavar pointed this out in the past, I'm not sure if this was addressed
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088875.msg49003581#msg49003581

They actually tried here - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088875.msg51622704#msg51622704
But, I'm not sure whether the said block was pre-mined or not. As none of the forum members confirmed it is not premined.

Sorry, It was for Roulette

[tsaroz]

The client seed you used seems to be of Roulette game.
I don't exactly know how BC's crash game works and I haven't ever played with them but many crash games uses the same principle and BC game might be using the same.
All they do is generate a number of bust for x games so that the median(or average) of all the game remains 2-house edge.
So, the game would be provably verifiable on completion of the cycle and they'd be able to generate same result for all players.

[DaveF]

There are a couple of ways to do it, but what tsaroz is the way most do it.

When I briefly ran mine, the programmer I was using at the time did a ridiculously complicated method that did in theory have some vulnerabilities but since it was not for real money it never mattered. And you needed at least 2 people playing so that killed it also.

-Dave

[tippytoes]

The client seed you used seems to be of Roulette game.
I don't exactly know how BC's crash game works and I haven't ever played with them but many crash games uses the same principle and BC game might be using the same.
All they do is generate a number of bust for x games so that the median(or average) of all the game remains 2-house edge.
So, the game would be provably verifiable on completion of the cycle and they'd be able to generate same result for all players.

Also, the OP should post this thread in the Scam Accusations board. To properly address his complaint.

[CHRISBIN702]

I recently had a look at BC.Game provably fair system. When I checked their crash game provably fair system, I found that the crash game doesn't satisfy provably fair criteria. I am not sure if they overlooked this part, or they intentionally trying to deceive users, so I messaged their customer support, who told me he will inform their developer to have a look. After quite some time, one of their support (or developer?) replied back to me, saying since it is a multiplayer game, their crash game doesn't need any client seed, unlike their individual games.

From this point, it is fair to say that they either 1) don't understand fully how provably fair works, in which case they should really stop the game until they understand it, or 2) they are trying to deceive players, especially BitcoinTalk users into having false sense of security.

As you probably know, any provably fair system will need some sort of client seed not known/ unguessable and cannot be controlled by the casino, to ensure the results are random and not known to the casino beforehand. BC.Game only uses the 10 millions server hash to generate the result without any client seed. This gave them opportunity to know all the bet results chain beforehand, and could keep on searching for a hash chain that would generate a results chain favorable to them.

Their verifier code (https://bcsnproject.github.io/bcgame-crash/) shows that they didn't use client seed, and when you entered the game hash it output the correct result, meaning they are using this code without client seed to generate result. On other hand, their BitcoinTalk page (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088875.80, page 5) shows that they uses client seed of Block 582,678, but if you were to run this code with their game hash, it doesn't output the same result.

I have used third-party software to archived their website and all info. This is done so that 1) if they have changed their website info I still have a record to show, and 2) prevent them from saying I changed their website info such as using google inspector, since the info is captured by third-party which can't be changed.

Below are some screenshots for your info. You can check them yourself by visiting their website, until they changed their website info and code.

Hey man. Check this out. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5088875.msg52530879#msg52530879

[BC.GAME]

Each one of the hashes generated is dependent on the last one, so its not as easy as just finding a "favorable result" that fits along with the rest. Yes, its a bit unconventional however it is still verifiable and the hashes were randomized as described in our original post about crash. We may change this to a seeding event like the other multiplayer games, but at this point theres no need to fix something that isn't broken.

Also it appears that you used a roulette client seed to try and verify? Not sure what you did there...if you can describe a little better how you attempted to verify we can see what went wrong in the process. Currently, each game has its own seed so you cannot just use any client seed from any game.

[BC.GAME]

Thanks for everyone’s high attention to our beloved Crash.
After careful checking, we found the client seed belongs to roulette. As we all know, it is not a good idea to use Roulette's seed to verify the result of Crash.
We’re not sure if it’s some misunderstanding caused by design of the game, but if it is, we will adjust according to community voice.
For Crash, we will keep soliciting suggestions from the community and optimize the game, such as to add the hash of the corresponding hash of tron block as salt in each round, or to take a more general approach: add the hash of Bitcoin's future blocks as salt.
We hope you could experience our games first before you make a comment. (Our poor little dev told me the unfortunate fact that you never bet once and used email and IP from Mars )
In short, BC.Game belongs to the entire community.We welcome questioning, but we don't accept  groundless attacks and smears.
We stick to provably fair and present our players the best we can.
Again, thanks for all the love and support.
BC.Game

[vicknick]

Thanks for everyone’s high attention to our beloved Crash.
After careful checking, we found the client seed belongs to roulette. As we all know, it is not a good idea to use Roulette's seed to verify the result of Crash.
We’re not sure if it’s some misunderstanding caused by design of the game, but if it is, we will adjust according to community voice.
For Crash, we will keep soliciting suggestions from the community and optimize the game, such as to add the hash of the corresponding hash of tron block as salt in each round, or to take a more general approach: add the hash of Bitcoin's future blocks as salt.
We hope you could experience our games first before you make a comment. (Our poor little dev told me the unfortunate fact that you never bet once and used email and IP from Mars )
In short, BC.Game belongs to the entire community.We welcome questioning, but we don't accept  groundless attacks and smears.
We stick to provably fair and present our players the best we can.
Again, thanks for all the love and support.
BC.Game

Please read the post carefully.

The problem is not about using the roulette seed. The problem is that you don't use any client seed or Block hash at all, which is used to seed together with the server hash before producing a result. With only the server hash, you could have the chance to pick a result chain that is favorable to you. This is similar to offering an individual game (such as dice, plinko etc) with only the server seed but not the client seed.

I suggest everyone to stay away from their Crash game until they can prove their game is provably fair.

[Hunter2024]

1. The function of finding hash through inquiry has been used for more than 2 years. There is not enough evidence to prove BC is fraudulent, and its red and green functions are distinctive, but I think BC has a lack of random factors.
2.  BC should really learn bust to add a future btc block as salt, which increases uncertainty and reduces this unnecessary misunderstanding.

In fact, in gaming industry, the market for provably fair is still really small, and players simply do not understand the importance of provably fair.

For this matter, the crypto gambling association has not done enough to expand its influence.

 I think this is not good. Everyone should continue with mutual help and supervision to ensure the influence of the major crypto casinos of the association.

 If crypto casinos only use provably fair as a a slogan for marketing purpose, then it’s no different from the old gaming industry and there is no block chain spirit!

BC is not just your competitor.

You should communicate reasonably and supervise each other friendly, not maliciously.

The wise choice is to expand your influence with BC and dig deep in non-provably-fair market!

Only if all the provably-fair crypto casinos gain wild global influence, will your business bloom.

 Bust first proposed the plan,

I believe you will insist on going further.

The competition in a comprehensive big casino like 1xbet is far more than that of bc!

I believe that your products should also expand their brands, expand marketing, and expand their influence.
=========================================================================A fan who has a strong interest in the gambling   =============================================================================

[BC.GAME]

You spoke, we listened.
Thank you for your suggestion, the algorithm has been updated

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5256606

[leea-1334]

So it seems to me that two things happened here. First, OP did not fully understand what it was he was trying to verify, and that I do not think any users were deceived, they simply misunderstood the game.

Secondly, though, Stunna has a point as someone else also pointed out much earlier that their Provably Fair system is not fully valid,,, this does not automatically mean it is a scam but if they fixed it then good, if not, then they should and people should stay away until their system is fixed.