Is it worth hosting a lightning node?

[mocacinno]

Any stats about your default routing fees or total routed transaction? I believe you could earn a bit more if you set routing fees slightly higher than default.

For me, it was clear from the start that running a lightning node would make little to no money, so i left all fee-related settings completely default...

Code:

cli/lightning-cli listconfigs
{
   "# version": "v0.8.2-354-g7981f4c",
   "lightning-dir": "/--snip--/.lightning",
   "network": "bitcoin",
   "allow-deprecated-apis": true,
   "rpc-file": "lightning-rpc",
   "plugin": "--snip--/pay",
   "plugin": "--snip--/bcli",
   "plugin": "--snip--/autoclean",
   "plugin": "--snip--/keysend",
   "plugin": "--snip--/fundchannel",
   "plugins": [
      {
         "path": --snip--s/pay",
         "name": "pay"
      },
      {
         "path": "--snip--/bcli",
         "name": "bcli",
         "options": {
           --snip--
         }
      },
      {
         "path": "--snip--/autoclean",
         "name": "autoclean",
         "options": {
            "autocleaninvoice-cycle": null,
            "autocleaninvoice-expired-by": null
         }
      },
      {
         "path": "--snip--/keysend",
         "name": "keysend"
      },
      {
         "path": "--snip--/fundchannel",
         "name": "fundchannel"
      }
   ],
   "disable-plugin": [],
   "always-use-proxy": false,
   "daemon": "false",
   "wallet": "sqlite3:--snip--",
   "wumbo": false,
   "wumbo": false,
   "rgb": "03301e",
   "alias": "mocacinno",
   "pid-file": "--snip--g/lightningd-bitcoin.pid",
   "ignore-fee-limits": false,
   "watchtime-blocks": 144,
   "max-locktime-blocks": 2016,
   "funding-confirms": 3,
   "commit-fee-min": 200,
   "commit-fee-max": 2000,
   "cltv-delta": 14,
   "cltv-final": 10,
   "commit-time": 10,
   "fee-base": 1000,
   "rescan": 15,
   "fee-per-satoshi": 10,
   "max-concurrent-htlcs": 30,
   "min-capacity-sat": 10000,
   "addr": "--snip--",
   "offline": "false",
   "autolisten": true,
   "disable-dns": "false",
   "enable-autotor-v2-mode": "false",
   "encrypted-hsm": false,
   "rpc-file-mode": "0600",
   "log-level": "DEBUG",
   "log-prefix": "lightningd",
   "log-file": "debug.log"
}

Sure, i could probably make a "lot" more if i'd open extra channels and raised the fees, but i'm not really interested in this... I mean, even if this settings would multiply my income by 100, i'd still only make enough to buy 1 or 2 beers a year... Defenately not worth my troubles

[ModernDayMabena]

remember the dream. remember the promise of LN being the route to 'sub penny tx's

That promise is still true. Users are free to use other channels. Both LNbig.com and Alex's node charge outrageously higher fees than other Lightning Network nodes. Most people would argue that they provide a lot of large channels and paths for payment routing. While the latter is true, the former will become less and less relevant over time because of multipart payments.

wel onchain fees are ~$2 each
and a $30 LN is 0.1 - 0.25% = 3-9cents
so not even sub pennies.

You're right. The LN fees for larger payments would be nowhere near subsatoshi level if all nodes charged 0.1%-0.25% per transaction. Longer routes would be completely cost-inefficient. I believe that there will be plenty of smaller nodes offering lower fees. Currently, most LN nodes route payments at the default settings. Here are some of my calculations. Assumptions: BTC price - $10.000, routed payment value - $30.

LN fee = basefee + (amount * feerate / 1000000)

Default settings:

https://i.imgur.com/a7ehBXo.png

Currently known LNbig.com settings:

https://i.imgur.com/e3T4lHL.png


This is the perfectly summed up version of what the factual argument is. The charges currently are outrageous but smaller players can somewhat benefit from that by hosting your own network. I mean, to be even more practical, you could set it up with partner and split the costs depending minimum channel size, however that'll only make sense if it's atleast around 1M sats. I think it'll be even more lucrative to contribute equal amounts only if it's substantially more. From my experience, it's generally hard finding someone who is actually clued up enough to know what they're signing up for, so I had to rely on the internet.  There are plenty sites and forums to sift through and "trustworthiness" isn't exactly at the top of the requirement list but I found someone competent enough on Microlancer.io, it supports the use of Lightning Network transactions and is perfect as a starting point. Of course, you could also actually get paid(in sats) for someone else who's already looking for a partner. All the Best !

[franky1]

Uh-oh, it's time for franky1 to break out the ascii-technobabble, for those occasions when his standard nonsense just won't quite cut it.  

He'd be dangerous if he had the slightest clue what he was talking about.    

doomad wouldnt be dangerous if he wasnt jsut kissing certain devs ass to promote other networks

even now doomad and his pals still want to promote LN as being bitcoin and getting angry when smarter people then him point out its a different network with different units of measure and non of the same securities of peer review and decentralised auditing

even the code/comments in LN shows that LN payments are made in millisat IOU's where at a later date they are settled for bitcoins in a separate contract after 'rounding'

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/a8f077a8417011e2b816002ba4c4f777fb511999/lnwire/msat.go#L19

// MilliSatoshi are the native unit of the Lightning Network. A milli-satoshi
// is simply 1/1000th of a satoshi. There are 1000 milli-satoshis in a single
// satoshi. Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in
// milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native
// blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to
// the nearest satoshi.

as for trying to be double down ass kisser trying to make LN seem as secure as bitcoin.
doomad really is trying to hard to oversell LN even when people are asking for genuine answers to genuine questions. doomad just wants to be a spiteful man-child getting angry at anyone thats not promoting LN favourably
so heres the genuine truth
unless your a big established business thats going to offer alot of services and and have enough reserves to set up strategicaly placed channels across the LN network. you got no chance of making profit on LN

even now some of the key services are only buddying up with key gates(factory nodes) to lessen how many channels the service needs to open and just be partners with high collateral businesses.
so if you think random hobby guy has a chance to get 1 hop away from a popular service to become a useful path to the service for routing.. sorry not gonna happen

its like amazon. they wont set up a channel with dallas wives book club node. or mary down the street node. they will set up a channel with large payment gateways. like banks. and let the banks take the pressure off amazon

[DooMAD]

as for trying to be double down ass kisser trying to make LN seem as secure as bitcoin.

I know that reading comprehension has always been a struggle to you, as your overactive imagination is filling in the blanks faster than you can absorb any actual facts from what you are attempting to parse, but I have always taken the stance that LN is a different security model than the one people may be accustomed to.  

Just because I've corrected some of your gross exaggerations and outright lies, does not mean I'm claiming LN is as secure as on-chain.  I have stated it's likely more secure than third party exchanges.  Perhaps you're perfectly content for users to continue to face losses from incompetent fully-custodial exchanges and never put the same effort into decrying those as much as you do LN, which is not fully-custodial and gives more power to users over their funds.

I know I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you, though.  You believe the absurd notion that LN = Banks.

doomad really is trying to hard to oversell LN even when people are asking for genuine answers to genuine questions. doomad just wants to be a spiteful man-child getting angry at anyone thats not promoting LN favourably
so heres the genuine truth
unless your a big established business thats going to offer alot of services and and have enough reserves to set up strategicaly placed channels across the LN network. you got no chance of making profit on LN

Is that what you think the point of Lightning is?  Making profit?  It's no wonder you're so confused.  As usual, your premise is flawed.  The point is faster transactions and reduced fees if you don't require as much security for transactions of smaller sums.

even now some of the key services are only buddying up with key gates(factory nodes) to lessen how many channels the service needs to open and just be partners with high collateral businesses.
so if you think random hobby guy has a chance to get 1 hop away from a popular service to become a useful path to the service for routing.. sorry not gonna happen

its like amazon. they wont set up a channel with dallas wives book club node. or mary down the street node. they will set up a channel with large payment gateways. like banks. and let the banks take the pressure off amazon

Time will tell.  Some of us are satisfied to wait and see how it evolves over time.  You seem to prefer imagining the worst-case-scenario and then pretending that it's the only conceivable outcome.  I'm sorry this experiment is so offensive to your delicate sensibilities.

[Wind_FURY]

Uh-oh, it's time for franky1 to break out the ascii-technobabble, for those occasions when his standard nonsense just won't quite cut it.  

He'd be dangerous if he had the slightest clue what he was talking about.    

doomad wouldnt be dangerous if he wasnt jsut kissing certain devs ass to promote other networks

even now doomad and his pals still want to promote LN as being bitcoin and getting angry when smarter people then him point out its a different network with different units of measure and non of the same securities of peer review and decentralised auditing

even the code/comments in LN shows that LN payments are made in millisat IOU's where at a later date they are settled for bitcoins in a separate contract after 'rounding'

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/a8f077a8417011e2b816002ba4c4f777fb511999/lnwire/msat.go#L19

// MilliSatoshi are the native unit of the Lightning Network. A milli-satoshi
// is simply 1/1000th of a satoshi. There are 1000 milli-satoshis in a single
// satoshi. Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in
// milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native
// blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to
// the nearest satoshi.

There is NOTHING in that code/comment that said, or describe that transactions in Lightning are made of IOUs. Stop gaslighting.

Newbies, the coins locked in LN channels are actual coins sent in a special multisig address that allows both its participants to send coins between them back-and-forth off-the-chain, that have not yet been confirmed on-chain.

You can think of it as like an organized mem-pool.

[franky1]

the HTLC payments are measured in 12 decimals as a contract promise to later settle in 8 decimals
the settlement happens separately and later on

know the difference between the 12 decimal promise and the 8 decimal settlement.
i know 'gaslighting' is your new buzzword but you have no clue
maybe learn more about LN before you ass kiss it

really take the time to understand the key points of this statement
"Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to the nearest satoshi."

ill give you a hint. the HTLC are not settling bitcoins. they are making payments using a denomination not recognised by bitcoin. in a format of a promise of what value the other party should get.
but even when settling they still have to negotiate how to round it up or down.

meaning its not a settled payment. its a promise to pay or a intent to pay in contract form at a later date
which is the bases of what an IOU is

as for doomad pretending he corrects me
i know you love calling anything an experiment so that you can claim that when it fails its ok that it fails because it was only an experiment you and a certain few done this with bitcoin too.
you dont care about bitcoins success/longevity.

also repeating "it must be wrong because franky1 said it" is not a correction. neither is "i guess you didnt learn". neither is then saying in the next topic you corrected me . and then in a third topic saying you already said you corrected me. any actual kind of proof of correction in the first or second place

we already know that you love the idea of factory and watchtowers which is exactly the banking model
even the devs of LN have worked out that the multihop model doesnt work well but the hub and spoke bank model does.
this hub and spoke thing was mentioned years ago and has been actually already running now.. its not some future thing to not be concerned about now. its actually happening now so should concern people

so while you pretend to imply to people that they can make guaranteed fast payments and make casual income on a hop model. no harm no foul no negative experiences

the devs and many others are calling out the hard facts that LN is ALREADY playing into the hub and spoke model. and many are having negative experiences on the hop model

i know you want to convert people away from bitcoin and jump into and lock up funds to then play in LN. and say everything is fine and working and guaranteed and cheaper than bitcoin. and that the hub/spoke model is something for distant future to not be concerned about now
yep i called out your games before. in many topics over many years
the real hard truth is the hub/spoke model is playing out now.

so im sorry to keep ruining your LN admiration promotions. but hey. people want to know these things.
and yes when this topic is asking about making passive income. then ill answer them about making passive income
so you can cry all you like about thinking that its me that thinks "the only point of LN is about making profit"
i guess you missed what this topic was all about
and i guess you missed my point that normal people wont make profit

continue crying all you like. but atleast dont sound like an alt network lover while you try to convince people to step away from bitcoin, knowing that they will only get headaches and problems unless they vault up with a hub. (your secret agenda and hope)

oh and one last thing
LN is not limited to being a bitcoin only feature. many altcoins can use it.
so atleast be honest and stop promoting it as if its bitcoin but faster and cheaper
its nothing like bitcoin. nor limited to bitcoin
heck there are even some tether (digital fiat) currencies that will use LN

[DooMAD]

i know you love calling anything an experiment so that you can claim that when it fails its ok that it fails because it was only an experiment you and a certain few done this with bitcoin too.
you dont care about bitcoins success/longevity.

I call it experimental because I'm fond of a little thing called REALITY.  You know, that word I keep using all the time?  The thing you have literally no concept of?

If you think any of this is the finished product, you're even more fucking delusional than I ever gave you credit for.  Being a realist doesn't mean I don't care about Bitcoin's longevity.  It means I have to recognise that certain compromises are inevitable and it's better that the compromises are made off-chain.  This is an infinitely more sensible approach than your desired method, which is to make all the compromises on-chain and jeopardise the longevity of Bitcoin.  You utter imbecile.

But please keep posting.  Every single post you make is yet another nail in the coffin.  And inside that coffin is your total accumulated understanding of how this stuff works.  Lifeless and unaware.  You continue to serve as a prime example of how to never grow as a person, or learn anything, or even feign basic comprehension of a fairly simple concept.  It's as though time stopped for you about 3 years ago and you think that you can hold on to that moment in time forever.  So anything that contradicts your narrow view must be wrong and evil somehow.  Enjoy living in your make-believe bubble, but sadly we can't join you.  Go play by yourself.  Or just get the mental breakdown out of the way already, have some therapy and finally learn to function like a normal, reasonable human being.  Your call.

[franky1]

i know you love calling anything an experiment so that you can claim that when it fails its ok that it fails because it was only an experiment you and a certain few done this with bitcoin too.
you dont care about bitcoins success/longevity.

I call it experimental because I'm fond of a little thing called REALITY.  You know, that word I keep using all the time?  The thing you have literally no concept of?

If you think any of this is the finished product

an experiment is not about a product its a test to find out a result
so if the test is to know if there is a emethod to decentrally pass 'value' then it pased that experiment a decade ago

a product is something that is commonly used daily it doesnt have to be a perfectly refined product. but if it has a purpose and people are using it. then its no longer an experiment
its at the production stage not the experimental stage

but i do find it funny how you dont want people to think of bitcoin as a functioning product commonly used by thousands of people. how your trying to keep pushing the narrative that bitcoin will fail and other networks are better.
really funny but not as subtle as you try to think your making it

im guessing, in YOUR reality. if you ever had kids you would class them as just an experiment until they reached adulthood
where if they died in childhood you would say 'oh well its just an experiment, lets try something else'
you would not care or want to take responsibility. because to you they are just an experiment

[Wind_FURY]

Snipped long techno-babble

Nothing of that long post proves that Lightning is a network of IOUs. No one takes your coins, and issues an IOU in Lightning. The coins locked on payment channels are ACTUAL BITCOIN UTXOs, that have yet to be confirmed on-chain.

[DooMAD]

i know you love calling anything an experiment so that you can claim that when it fails its ok that it fails because it was only an experiment you and a certain few done this with bitcoin too.
you dont care about bitcoins success/longevity.

I call it experimental because I'm fond of a little thing called REALITY.  You know, that word I keep using all the time?  The thing you have literally no concept of?

If you think any of this is the finished product

an experiment is not about a product its a test to find out a result
so if the test is to know if there is a emethod to decentrally pass 'value' then it pased that experiment a decade ago

a product is something that is commonly used daily it doesnt have to be a perfectly refined product. but if it has a purpose and people are using it. then its no longer an experiment
its at the production stage not the experimental stage

but i do find it funny how you dont want people to think of bitcoin as a functioning product commonly used by thousands of people. how your trying to keep pushing the narrative that bitcoin will fail and other networks are better.
really funny but not as subtle as you try to think your making it

Just because Bitcoin functions well and serves a purpose, doesn't mean you get to draw a line in the sand, say it's finished and then spend the rest of time decrying all future development.  You're welcome to do it, but no one is going to take you seriously.  

You can also make up the narrative that I'm "pushing the narrative that Bitcoin will fail", because I know fully well that you lack the credibity for anyone to believe you.

LN is happening, people are going to play with it.  It will evolve and grow.  You can't stop it with fear mongering.

im guessing, in YOUR reality. if you ever had kids you would class them as just an experiment until they reached adulthood
where if they died in childhood you would say 'oh well its just an experiment, lets try something else'
you would not care or want to take responsibility. because to you they are just an experiment

Please stop projecting your traumatic childhood onto everyone and everything else.  

[MCobian]

In my opinion it is not feasible to make money with a lightning network node, many costs must be incurred. Like electricity costs
and device maintenance, because it requires a device with a fairly high specification, if you only experiment and gain experience,
you can try doing it. I suggest trading if it's the goal to be able to make money.

[jpnl0006]

please drop an article or link to a documentary or video where one can learn how to host the network as i am also very interested. A friend of mine ones told me about the hosting of the lightening network but he was yet to get clearly the tehnicalities involved. any information shared here will be of great assistance.

[franky1]

Snipped long techno-babble

Nothing of that long post proves that Lightning is a network of IOUs. No one takes your coins, and issues an IOU in Lightning. The coins locked on payment channels are ACTUAL BITCOIN UTXOs, that have yet to be confirmed on-chain.

HTLC are not actual bitcoin UTXO

the bitcoin UTXO is the deposit into a joint account
then HTLC(banknotes) in 12 decimals are created separetly and played around with
then when settling those HTLC are rounded up or down and then a bitcoin transaction is signed to then be broadcastable

try reading the code and comments from the devs making LN
i posted it twice no in the last could posts i made in this topic i even linked it.
maybe try to read it instead of just being ignorant and just saying techno-babble as your way of not even bothering to read it

here incase you missed it
"Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to the nearest satoshi."

i colour coded the 3 points you seem to keep ignoring
i dare you. i truly dare you to actually learn LN to come back and know fully what these 3 coloured parts mean
it will surprise you
learn the "open" and "close" channel processes 
and when and where the rounding occurs
and the difference between the LN HTLC vs locktime contract type

bitcoins purpose is irreversible uneditable undeletable transfer of value.
LN does dont offer this same protection. nor are the HTLC 8 decimal

it might take you less time if you realise the simple fact that HTLC are not 8 decimal
ill say it a final time because i dont want to waste more posts reminding you
HTLC's are not 8 decimal
i hope you finally realise this FACT

oh and LN is not limited to bitcoin. people can also lock litecoin. and then play with LN so even your premiss that LN payments include a BITCOIN UTXO shows how little you know
good luck with your learning.
seems after a couple years you still have a long way to go

[DooMAD]

here incase you missed it
"Within the network, all HTLC payments are denominated in milli-satoshis. As milli-satoshis aren't deliverable on the native blockchain, before settling to broadcasting, the values are rounded down to the nearest satoshi."

i colour coded the 3 points you seem to keep ignoring

You can colour code it any way you like, that still doesn't make it equivalent to an IOU or a banknote.  If you think it does, then, as usual, if you are making the claim, the onus is on YOU to prove it.  The evidence you have provided does not convince me that HTLCs are in any way similar to IOUs.  You are merely contorting facts to suit your misleading claims.

[Wind_FURY]

Snipped long techno-babble

Nothing of that long post proves that Lightning is a network of IOUs. No one takes your coins, and issues an IOU in Lightning. The coins locked on payment channels are ACTUAL BITCOIN UTXOs, that have yet to be confirmed on-chain.

Snipped

franky, I explain one thing, and you make a deliberate effort to make a long confusing post about, I don't know. DISINFORMATION.

If you're a pro-Bitcoin-secret-agent sent by gmaxwell to make the anti-Bitcoin trolls look bad, then you are doing a job well done. Thank you.