What's up with the need for tBTC?

[mocacinno]

I run a tBTC (testnet Bitcoin) faucet, and i've publicly stated i would loan out tBTC to anybody who needs it in the past... Usually i get 2-3 messages per month requesting "random" amount of tBTC from newbies...

After I explain the collateral I estimated a couple months ago will no longer suffice because the difficulty on the testnet rose from 10M to >16M, the block reward went from <0.4 to <0.2 tBTC/block and the price per Th on miningrigrentals rose aswell since my posts about loaning out tBTC, they drop the subject never to be heared off again.

However, yesterday i received 16!!! messages asking for loads of tBTC (most of them in the ~100 tBTC range). The messages were evenly spread between bitcointalk PM's, my 2 public email addresses and my twitter inbox.

This night, 2 more messages, resulting in 18 requests in little over 24 hours...

I'm missing something here... Anybody knows some secret I don't?

I mean, electrum has released version 4... I could understand people asking for tBTC to test out the LN on testnet... But you wouldn't need 100 tBTC for this. Other than that, i'm drawing blanks...

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[joniboini]

The demand for tBTC is increasing since a few months ago iirc.

It is possible that those guys are confusing it with another token such as https://docs.keep.network/tbtc/.

[mocacinno]

The demand for tBTC is increasing since a few months ago iirc.

It is possible that those guys are confusing it with another token such as https://docs.keep.network/tbtc/.

Possible... However, what i forgot to mention in my OP is that the 18 requests were not only from newbies, but also from people that've been here for years, even somebody from DT2, and somebody with green trust... Same on twitter: not only new profiles, but also somebody with a longtime profile.
Seems strange to me that these people would mess up a worthless craptoken en a 0-value testnet coin.

[mk4]

Seems strange to me that these people would mess up a worthless craptoken en a 0-value testnet coin.

Welp, though they're not super common, I've heard about past incidents concerning people scamming using testnet coins. So I guess there's that. Though unlikely, I would say that it's still very possible.

[pooya87]

give it a short time and if we see an increase in complains about how someone got scammed with testnet coins we can know the reason why they were asking for it here. a similar thing happened a couple of months ago and we saw the same result.

but also from people that've been here for years, even somebody from DT2, and somebody with green trust...

have you asked them why they want such large amounts for?

[so98nn]

Seems strange to me that these people would mess up a worthless craptoken en a 0-value testnet coin.

Welp, though they're not super common, I've heard about past incidents concerning people scamming using testnet coins. So I guess there's that. Though unlikely, I would say that it's still very possible.

Surprisingly the most common reason behind that much tbtc would be scamming only. It's clear from OP that he had like 2-3 request and overnight it became 18 request, that itself tells us something is fishy going on.

IDK, the scammer is unplanned one, at least he should have made the request with some time gap and do the whole plot. LOLZ. He must not watch the Money Heist series I believe. 

Anyway, keeping jokes apart, I would say that its scammer group in my opinion.

[mocacinno]

--snip--
have you asked them why they want such large amounts for?

I tried... Didn't get a clear answer tough...

I haven't heared about anybody getting scammed with tBTC (yet). Seems like a strange attack method. I mean, you have to persuade somebody to either run a wallet that's clearly marked as a testnet wallet, or you have to convince them to start the wallet with a parameter that clearly says "testnet" or you have to convice them to run a "fake" wallet... Next to this, you'd have to convice your victim that he/she cannot use a normal block explorer. And you have to convice them that testnet is just like main net, and he has to ignore the "test" in front of everything, and the warnings everywhere, and the posts on forums, blogs,... that indicate that tBTC has zero value.

It just feels like a criminal would take the path of least resistance... Why scam somebody with tBTC? If you have to get them to run an "alternative" wallet, or a standard wallet in an "alternative" way, why not just push a completely fake wallet on them, one that's basically just showing fake transactions that get pulled from a central server? Or use some crapcoin or token and sell it as BTC.

I'm not saying it's impossible, since you guys have actually heared from such attacks i'm not doubting these kind of things do happen... It just seems unlikely to have caused such an "explosion" in tBTC demand

[Lucius]

It is possible that those guys are confusing it with another token such as https://docs.keep.network/tbtc/.

I mean, electrum has released version 4... I could understand people asking for tBTC to test out the LN on testnet... But you wouldn't need 100 tBTC for this. Other than that, i'm drawing blanks...

I think it has to be one of these two things, or a combination of both. If we take into account that a good share of crypto users do not distinguish Bitcoin from blockchain and vice versa, then some obviously think that you are handing out some tokens for free, and 100 is such a nice round number

As for scams involving tBTC, examples can be found where tBTC is used, but selling watch-only wallets is much more popular because it requires even less effort and time. Yet every beginner is an ideal target for this type of scam, as it does not distinguish the original Bitcoin from some fork or testnetBTC.

Here is an example from 2017 -> Reflections on a Testnet Scam Incident

[stompix]

I tried... Didn't get a clear answer tough...

Which makes things even more suspicious, sound weird that a DT member or someone with a lot of green trusts would try to avoid such an easy and harmless (normally) question

Possible... However, what i forgot to mention in my OP is that the 18 requests were not only from newbies, but also from people that've been here for years, even somebody from DT2, and somebody with green trust... Same on twitter: not only new profiles, but also somebody with a longtime profile.
Seems strange to me that these people would mess up a worthless craptoken en a 0-value testnet coin.

Really need  to dive into conspiracy territory here
It is possible they are getting requests of their own for those coins, might be that the actual source of the demand has not contacted you and maybe they are all acting like middlemen...and tBTC (the token) is another pretty shady project that had a bumpy road, getting test coins to try and scam some scammy tokens, is a bit farfetched.

Maybe a fork is getting launched that doesn't split from the main chain but from the test chain?  Sounds ridiculous but the whole story is also ridiculous.

[BrewMaster]

Seems like a strange attack method. I mean, you have to persuade somebody to either run a wallet that's clearly marked as a testnet wallet, or you have to convince them to start the wallet with a parameter that clearly says "testnet" or you have to convice them to run a "fake" wallet...

reading some of the stories you would be surprised how easy it is to convince people of doing things that don't make any sense. for example in the following case the scammer told the victim to actually select "testnet" manually!
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/75776/i-need-your-help-urgently-bitcoins

I was told to create a bitpay wallet & tick Testnet & Single Address. And i have received 1.182691BTC on 29/05/18.

[mocacinno]

Well, i've learned something new today anyways... People do get scammed with tBTC.

This being said, it does seem like the amount of cases is still very small, and rightfully so, those people getting scammed seem to have no clue they're actually transferring wealth. I guess some people are always susceptible to scams, no matter how transparent they are.

It's like buying play money and trying to use it in a shop and being successful in convincing the shopkeeper the stamp "not legal tender" actually means "real money". Seems completely unlikely to happen in the fiat world, but for some reason some people seem to drop several iq points as soon as any digital form of money comes into play.

I'm having a bit of an ethical problem tough: i do think tBTC is usefull, and i'm 100% sure some people will actually need it for legit reasons. Some of these reasons might be private (for example: somebody building a mixer), and i believe in an individual's right not telling me why they need the tBTC.
On the other hand, they might be sketchy and use the tBTC for illegal activity's....

• Do i tell new people i no longer lend out tBTC.
• Do i start doing "backgroundchecks" that cost a lot of time and effort, especially for a free service.
• Do i keep lending out tBTC, eventough part of it might be used to scam... But then again, allmost everything you lend to anybody can be used to scam in one way or another...

I haven't got a clue... Does the good outweigh the bad, is it worth my effort,... 

[stompix]

I'm having a bit of an ethical problem tough: i do think tBTC is usefull, and i'm 100% sure some people will actually need it for legit reasons. Some of these reasons might be private (for example: somebody building a mixer), and i believe in an individual's right not telling me why they need the tBTC.
On the other hand, they might be sketchy and use the tBTC for illegal activity's....

Consider a career in politics   , that would teach you some things!

Right now you're giving test coins to people who you trust right? If they do bad things it's their problem or if you doubt them stop dealing with those persons in the first place. But, at the same time, you're just an individual, it's not like you hold ultimate control over the entire supply of coins, if you don't do it others will, scammers will always find a way.

[ranochigo]

Might've gotten your answer?

A new post just came up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5261085.0 (http://archive.is/T2aZp)

[mocacinno]

Might've gotten your answer?

A new post just came up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5261085.0 (http://archive.is/T2aZp)

That might be part of the explanation... Thanks for sharing the link

[BrewMaster]

• Do i tell new people i no longer lend out tBTC.
• Do i start doing "backgroundchecks" that cost a lot of time and effort, especially for a free service.
• Do i keep lending out tBTC, eventough part of it might be used to scam... But then again, allmost everything you lend to anybody can be used to scam in one way or another...

I haven't got a clue... Does the good outweigh the bad, is it worth my effort,... 

it is hard to say since it could take some effort.
i'd say it depends on how many coins they are asking for and who they are. for example if a known developer were to ask for coins or an anonymous person. and there is a difference between a small amount and something like 100. the later is always shady.

and i still say that almost all cases do not need large amounts of tbtc or any amount for that matter. they can perform all their tests on regtest and generate millions of coins in literary a couple of seconds and perform their tests.

if i were you i'd demand explanation from those who ask huge amounts or even a link to the project they are developing .

[Mbitr]

Might've gotten your answer?

A new post just came up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5261085.0 (http://archive.is/T2aZp)

Yep , this definitely seems to be it - here’s another post
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5260913.0

[LoyceV]

• Do i tell new people i no longer lend out tBTC.
• Do i start doing "backgroundchecks" that cost a lot of time and effort, especially for a free service.
• Do i keep lending out tBTC, eventough part of it might be used to scam... But then again, allmost everything you lend to anybody can be used to scam in one way or another...

What happened to all existing testnet Bitcoins anyway? Who's hoarding them? It's not supposed to be scarce, and it's not supposed to be in high demand. They're supposed to be easy to get for whoever needs them for testing anything Bitcoin related.
At this point I'd say it's about time to reset testnet again, and start over from scratch. So instead of the options above, you could probably accelerate this by selling them! Of course, testnet Bitcoins aren't supposed to have value, and they aren't supposed to be sold, but at this point a reset may be better (for a while).

Might've gotten your answer?

A new post just came up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5261085.0

Some altcoin giving an incentive for Testnet Bitcoins, that's not how testnet is supposed to be used.

here’s another post
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5260913.0

Should asking for Testnet Bitcoins even be allowed in Project Development? It's not as if they're sharing a new project or anything, it's basically no different than asking for donations:

7. No begging.

[mocacinno]

--snip--
What happened to all existing testnet Bitcoins anyway? Who's hoarding them? It's not supposed to be scarce, and it's not supposed to be in high demand. They're supposed to be easy to get for whoever needs them for testing anything Bitcoin related.
At this point I'd say it's about time to reset testnet again, and start over from scratch. So instead of the options above, you could probably accelerate this by selling them! Of course, testnet Bitcoins aren't supposed to have value, and they aren't supposed to be sold, but at this point a reset may be better (for a while).

100% in agreement... If somebody needs testnet coins, it should be as simple as
=> editing bitcoin.conf on your testnet node (which you are running anyways, since you're developing a project for which you need tBTC)
=> running minerd for 1 hour
=> waiting untill your mined tBTC is mature
=> having enough tBTC for your project, donating the rest to a faucet when you're done

However, i've calculated that at this point in time there is > 100 Th running on the testnet (115 Th iirc, i did the calculations a couple days ago). No home cpu miner can ever compete with this... If this continues, a developer would actually need to buy an ASIC or rent hashrate to get enough tBTC to test his/her project, since nobody knows who's hoarding tBTC, and people with faucets (like me) also have a very hard time getting tBTC to give away for free.

A reset is direly needed... However, if it's just a reset without any other protocol changes, the miner (or miners) that's currently using relatively new ASIC's on the testnet will just continue mining with his ASICs on the "new" testnet, and not much will change... Offcourse, if the block reward is once again 50 tBTC, at least a developer can rent hashrate for a short amount of time, since he'd only have to solve one or two blocks to get enough tBTC for about any project he fancies (at the moment, you'd have to solve a whopping 500 blocks to have ~100 tBTC).

To be honest, i don't have a clear-cut answer for this conundrum either.... Just as a brainstorm exercise i was thinking about a reset of the testnet and a huge premine done by the dev's on this newtestnet. The devs can then either run an honest high-claim tBTC faucet themselves, or fund the 6 or 7 existing faucets (maybe even make an agreement with the faucet owners first, about minimum claim amounts, no popups, minimal advertisement,...). An other option would be to look at the altcoin community and borrow some of their idears (like making the testnet POW/POS, or making resets very common so nobody wants to burn electricity to mine tBTC that'll only be valid for a couple of days/weeks).

At this moment, coinbase rewards seems to end up funding addresses like this one:
live.blockcypher.com/btc-testnet/address/2N3oefVeg6stiTb5Kh3ozCSkaqmx91FDbsm/

Once in a while, other addresses pop up tough... But not very often.

[LoyceV]

To be honest, i don't have a clear-cut answer for this conundrum either.... Just as a brainstorm exercise i was thinking about a reset of the testnet and a huge premine done by the dev's on this newtestnet.

Why does Bitcoin Testnet have block halving in the first place? If it's for testing the protocol, they should be done by now. Considering the scarcity problems it might even be good to change the protocol for increasing inflation: a block doubling instead of halving will ensure testnet coins won't be scarce again.

[pooya87]

To be honest, i don't have a clear-cut answer for this conundrum either.... Just as a brainstorm exercise i was thinking about a reset of the testnet and a huge premine done by the dev's on this newtestnet.

Why does Bitcoin Testnet have block halving in the first place? If it's for testing the protocol, they should be done by now. Considering the scarcity problems it might even be good to change the protocol for increasing inflation: a block doubling instead of halving will ensure testnet coins won't be scarce again.

the point of testnet is to test the same exact thing without having any cost. if we start changing the protocol then we end up with something that is no longer bitcoin, in other words it becomes an altcoin instead of bitcoin-testnet. not to mention that the clients have to significantly change their code to implement changes that may seem simple (such as block reward).

if the coins are indeed scarce then the problem is somewhere else (coins burnt or hoarded).