Nothing is truly decentralized using a centralized ISP

[FreeStreamer]

The truth is that the ISP network is centralized. No cryptocurrency can be honestly decentralized as long as they run on the conventional centralized ISP network. Therefore you must switch to building a Mesh Network. A Mesh Network is free, secure and truly decentralized.

[1714931472]

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[HeRetiK]

If you strive for pure decentralization and autonomy on the network level you can't stop at mesh networks though. Mesh networks still rely on centrally controlled undersea cables and / or satellites to stay globally connected. You'd need physical alternative infrastructure to connect the world's continents.

That being said, running on centralized ISP infrastructure does no harm to the permissionlessness of a cryptocurrency, given that its network requirements are modest enough to reliably work on mesh networks or other alternatives. Put differently, an off-road vehicle being able to drive on regular roads does not make for a lesser off-road vehicle.

Regardless of that there's various efforts by Bitcoiners to circumvent centralized ISPs. There's Bitcoiner's using mesh networks, as mentioned by ETFbitcoin. There's Blockstream satellites (ie. an example of intercontinental physical alternative infrastructure -- run by a centralized entity obviously, but if Blockstream can put Bitcoin satellites into space, so can other private entities). There's even been efforts on Bitcoin transactions via radiowave transmission -- and that's honestly as decentralized as it gets.

[FreeStreamer]

If you strive for pure decentralization and autonomy on the network level you can't stop at mesh networks though. Mesh networks still rely on centrally controlled undersea cables and / or satellites to stay globally connected. You'd need physical alternative infrastructure to connect the world's continents.

That being said, running on centralized ISP infrastructure does no harm to the permissionlessness of a cryptocurrency, given that its network requirements are modest enough to reliably work on mesh networks or other alternatives. Put differently, an off-road vehicle being able to drive on regular roads does not make for a lesser off-road vehicle.

Regardless of that there's various efforts by Bitcoiners to circumvent centralized ISPs. There's Bitcoiner's using mesh networks, as mentioned by ETFbitcoin. There's Blockstream satellites (ie. an example of intercontinental physical alternative infrastructure -- run by a centralized entity obviously, but if Blockstream can put Bitcoin satellites into space, so can other private entities). There's even been efforts on Bitcoin transactions via radiowave transmission -- and that's honestly as decentralized as it gets.

Yeah, but the Mesh Network is still free, secure and decentralized. The cables are not part of the Mesh Network. Although sharing a common access point to the world wide web the Mesh Network itself is still free, secure and decentralized. Mesh is the obvious path of development to a private, secure decentralized internet development. Maybe you should consider ditching Bitcoin There's much more interesting and potential proof mechanisms that PoW.

[HeRetiK]

Yeah, but the Mesh Network is still free, secure and decentralized. The cables are not part of the Mesh Network. Although sharing a common access point to the world wide web the Mesh Network itself is still free, secure and decentralized.

Without access to the rest of the internet a meshnet is reduced to a local area network. Which still has its use cases but is not viable for any global applications such as a cryptocurrency.

Mesh is the obvious path of development to a private, secure decentralized internet development.

In terms of centralization the network infrastructure should be the least of your worries. It's Facebook, Apple, Alphabet etc. and their walled gardens and consolidation of data / content / power that you should worry about. That's where the centralization of the internet, the loss of privacy and sovereignty take place -- on the application level, not the network level.

Don't get me wrong, meshnets are great and I love seeing the many meshnet initiatives around the world. But they too have their limitations and are only a piece of the puzzle.

[gmaxwell]

Without access to the rest of the internet a meshnet is reduced to a local area network. Which still has its use cases but is not viable for any global applications such as a cryptocurrency.

Yep.


But there is a useful thing you can do-- have a diverse network connection.


One great option is to use the blockstream satellite feed: it's available most of the world and has no ongoing cost.

Another useful thing you can do is run tor and connect to peers over hidden services, functionally it's like having a second network connection riding over the first. At least any bitcoin-specific tampering with your network connection wouldn't work.


Aside, -- I wouldn't exactly call any of the mesh things I've seen *secure*-- generally they hardly work even when there is no attacker!

[FreeStreamer]

Yeah, but the Mesh Network is still free, secure and decentralized. The cables are not part of the Mesh Network. Although sharing a common access point to the world wide web the Mesh Network itself is still free, secure and decentralized.

Without access to the rest of the internet a meshnet is reduced to a local area network. Which still has its use cases but is not viable for any global applications such as a cryptocurrency.

Mesh is the obvious path of development to a private, secure decentralized internet development.

In terms of centralization the network infrastructure should be the least of your worries. It's Facebook, Apple, Alphabet etc. and their walled gardens and consolidation of data / content / power that you should worry about. That's where the centralization of the internet, the loss of privacy and sovereignty take place -- on the application level, not the network level.

Don't get me wrong, meshnets are great and I love seeing the many meshnet initiatives around the world. But they too have their limitations and are only a piece of the puzzle.

If it has access to the world wide web, then you can surf the web globally and use global applications on it. It's not a local web. It's a decentralized web peer community connected to the world wide web. This structure allows every peer to be their own ISP and therefore it's free and secure. The centralized ISP is the vulnerability. You can also encrypt the signal between peers so that they are anonymous to each other.

[bob123]

If it has access to the world wide web, then you can surf the web globally and use global applications on it. It's not a local web. It's a decentralized web peer community connected to the world wide web.

If your network is connected to "the internet", your traffic can again be censored by ISP's and their routers.
You'd need to have a local global network without any ISP. And this is not the case with your mesh network connected to the world wide web.

You can also encrypt the signal between peers so that they are anonymous to each other.

Encryption does not make you anonymous. It protects the content against tampering and curious participants of the network.

[NotATether]

This structure allows every peer to be their own ISP and therefore it's free and secure.

If you have a mesh network with no corporate sites hosted there, then you can't access those websites at all. ISPs group together in these formations called Internet Exchange Points which peers internet traffic through underground lines to another ISP, to access the sites hosted on that ISP. So the way you access internet today is already decentralized as long as the sites you access are hosted on different ISPs from your current ISP.

[PrimeNumber7]

One great option is to use the blockstream satellite feed: it's available most of the world and has no ongoing cost.

If I am not mistaken, this has the same issue as any other centralized ISP as you are trusting the operator of the satellite, blockstream, to provide accurate data, as it is in control of the satellite.

But there is a useful thing you can do-- have a diverse network connection.

Having multiple connections to the internet will help you detect any tampering with the information being sent to you. If you can establish a connection to a server you control located in a different country to connect to the internet as an additional means to connect to the internet, you can become increasingly sure you are receiving untampered information. It should be easier to establish a secure connection that any malicious ISP would have no interest in interfering with.

[gmaxwell]

If I am not mistaken, this has the same issue as any other centralized ISP as you are trusting the operator of the satellite, blockstream, to provide accurate data, as it is in control of the satellite.

My post makes more sense read forwards rather than backwards.   The satellite is an additional feed that helps you get the benefit of diversity without a monthly fee.

By itself it's a single connection, as you say.

[FreeStreamer]

If it has access to the world wide web, then you can surf the web globally and use global applications on it. It's not a local web. It's a decentralized web peer community connected to the world wide web.

If your network is connected to "the internet", your traffic can again be censored by ISP's and their routers.
You'd need to have a local global network without any ISP. And this is not the case with your mesh network connected to the world wide web.

Yeah, it can also be nuked. I'm not that paranoid because I'm not planning to use it for anything criminal. In a Mesh Network you are not registered onn a ISP. It's collectively registered on the ISP and all users web activity gets mixed with all the other Mesh users.

You can also encrypt the signal between peers so that they are anonymous to each other.

Encryption does not make you anonymous. It protects the content against tampering and curious participants of the network.

What if you hash each peer identity IP?

[FreeStreamer]

This structure allows every peer to be their own ISP and therefore it's free and secure.

If you have a mesh network with no corporate sites hosted there, then you can't access those websites at all. ISPs group together in these formations called Internet Exchange Points which peers internet traffic through underground lines to another ISP, to access the sites hosted on that ISP. So the way you access internet today is already decentralized as long as the sites you access are hosted on different ISPs from your current ISP.

Mesh are connected to internet via NAT. [MESH] -> [VPN/Gateway] -> NAT -> [Internet]

[gmaxwell]

Are there even any open source mesh protocols which are viable and maintained,  searching for a bit left me with a lot of stuff that hasn't changed in 4+ years.

[FreeStreamer]

Are there even any open source mesh protocols which are viable and maintained,  searching for a bit left me with a lot of stuff that hasn't changed in 4+ years.

The Batman protocol seem to be constantly upgraded. It's the router protocol of The German Freifunk community which is probably the worlds largest Mesh Network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.A.T.M.A.N.

[FreeStreamer]

One great option is to use the blockstream satellite feed: it's available most of the world and has no ongoing cost.

If I am not mistaken, this has the same issue as any other centralized ISP as you are trusting the operator of the satellite, blockstream, to provide accurate data, as it is in control of the satellite.

But there is a useful thing you can do-- have a diverse network connection.

Having multiple connections to the internet will help you detect any tampering with the information being sent to you. If you can establish a connection to a server you control located in a different country to connect to the internet as an additional means to connect to the internet, you can become increasingly sure you are receiving untampered information. It should be easier to establish a secure connection that any malicious ISP would have no interest in interfering with.

Check out LoRa Mesh with Batman protocol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY6m6fS8bxU&feature=youtu.be

[NotATether]

Mesh are connected to internet via NAT. [MESH] -> [VPN/Gateway] -> NAT -> [Internet]

Yeah, but the thing about NAT is that it replaces IP addresses in the mesh, each of the nodes, with a single outward-facing IP address. I can say this since you showed a gateway or VPN connecting the mesh to the NAT. So from the IP protocol point of view, the mesh appears no different than a typical internal network with private IP addresses.

[FreeStreamer]

Mesh are connected to internet via NAT. [MESH] -> [VPN/Gateway] -> NAT -> [Internet]

Yeah, but the thing about NAT is that it replaces IP addresses in the mesh, each of the nodes, with a single outward-facing IP address. I can say this since you showed a gateway or VPN connecting the mesh to the NAT. So from the IP protocol point of view, the mesh appears no different than a typical internal network with private IP addresses.

Well it's free of charge. You don't have to pay a fee to the operator. That's a major difference and perhaps the key feature that people are most interested in.

[FreeStreamer]

Without access to the rest of the internet a meshnet is reduced to a local area network. Which still has its use cases but is not viable for any global applications such as a cryptocurrency.

Yep.


But there is a useful thing you can do-- have a diverse network connection.


One great option is to use the blockstream satellite feed: it's available most of the world and has no ongoing cost.

Another useful thing you can do is run tor and connect to peers over hidden services, functionally it's like having a second network connection riding over the first. At least any bitcoin-specific tampering with your network connection wouldn't work.


Aside, -- I wouldn't exactly call any of the mesh things I've seen *secure*-- generally they hardly work even when there is no attacker!

Right, so you are Mesh expert and you have examined all the projects and you know this for sure? No wonder Bitcoin is slow if uses a satellite as third party in its centralized pyramid scheme.

[FreeStreamer]

Mesh network is a great idea but transfer speeds are an issue and bandwidth

The thing with Mesh is that the more nodes are interconnected, the faster the internet will become. This is easier to accomplish in a large city. Also with Mesh you are never queued because it always chooses the optimal available node for connection.

[gmaxwell]

The thing with Mesh is that the more nodes are interconnected, the faster the internet will become. This is easier to accomplish in a large city. Also with Mesh you are never queued because it always chooses the optimal available node for connection.

What you're describing is currently only true in the land of spherical cows.

The reality of mesh technology is that it's extremely challenging and as a result underdeveloped.

E.g. up thread I asked for examples, and the primary example is a lora mesh that achieves extremely low bandwidth SMS like messaging.

It's really cool, but it's not "fast internet".

No one has even really started to answer questions like how you can handle malicious mesh nodes in a way that doesn't compromise performance or just require all nodes to be approved.

Right, so you are Mesh expert and you have examined all the projects and you know this for sure? No wonder Bitcoin is slow if uses a satellite as third party in its centralized pyramid scheme.

I've certainly been a networking expert (e.g. my CV would support that claim).  I'd be totally happy to see mesh projects that delivered the properties that you're claiming, but I haven't seen them.  Please -- feel free to find examples. I'd be happy to discuss them.

You're not making a case for your own expertise by calling satellite slow. For a natural broadcast usage like Bitcoin it can be exceptionally efficient.  For example, the cumulative directtv video bandwidth is multiple gigabit/s per second--  available to every location over entire entire landmasses with costs like femto-cents-per-megabyte-per-potential-user.  No other technology is even comparable for broadcast use.   It doesn't do all things well, but it's still a very powerful technology.