Mr Coins -- Purchase Bitcoins with your Credit Card [Mt. Gox Codes]

[mr.coins]

Dear Richard Holland,

Thank you for contacting PayPal in relation to using PayPal for your website.

I can confirm Mr Holland that this is possible to create redeemable vouchers. Please let me provide you with our sales number 1800 729725 or you can reply to this email and request that a member of our sales team contacts you by phone to discuss this further.

 

Thanks for your email. For more information about using your account, visit http://www.youtube.com.au/paypalau.

 

Sincerely,

Adrian

PayPal, an eBay Company

 

PayPal Australia Pty Limited.

Copyright © 1999-2011 PayPal. All rights reserved. PayPal Australia Pty Limited ABN 93 111 195 389 (PPA) holds an Australian Financial Services Licence, number 304962. Any general financial product advice provided in this email is provided by PPA and has not taken into account your objectives, financial situations or needs.

I have just called them again, and asked for a more specific written statement along the lines of "we authorize you to sell coupons redeemable for bitcoin using PayPal." This is now in the works. The PayPal agent claims he will get back to me within 24 hours.

[finway]

Seems you'll be on <<Good Wife>> TV Show at CBS. 

[btc_artist]

I have just called them again, and asked for a more specific written statement along the lines of "we authorize you to sell coupons redeemable for bitcoin using PayPal." This is now in the works. The PayPal agent claims he will get back to me within 24 hours.

You should read up on what happened to coinpal.  They had permission from a Paypal customer service representative, yet Paypal shut them down anyway (and took $5k from the owner's Paypal acct.).

[Matthew N. Wright]

I have just called them again, and asked for a more specific written statement along the lines of "we authorize you to sell coupons redeemable for bitcoin using PayPal." This is now in the works. The PayPal agent claims he will get back to me within 24 hours.

You should read up on what happened to coinpal.  They had permission from a Paypal customer service representative, yet Paypal shut them down anyway (and took $5k from the owner's Paypal acct.).

As I mentioned at the beginning of his thread, what he should be doing is his homework. He is apparently a total newb to the forums, has not done any research on the viability of this business, has ignored people on his thread warning him that his solutions are immature and not practical in the real world, and now not only has he lost his Google checkout account (which I warned would happen), he's going to lose his paypal one too (guaranteed).

Accesscoin.com has been through this before.

CoinPal has been through this before.

Mr.Coins is special! It won't happen to them!  

[btc_artist]

Meh, on the other hand you can tone it down.  You've already said your piece. Richard is an adult; he can weigh your advice and make his own decision.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Meh, on the other hand you can tone it down.  You've already said your piece. Richard is an adult; he can weigh your advice and make his own decision.

I'm not a troll, but I definitely have no respect for people who assume everyone is a troll who disagrees with what they do. I'll tone it down when people in our community stop being a total embarrassment to us and start following some standards.

Everything does not just magically work because "BITCOIN".

[mr.coins]

I have just called them again, and asked for a more specific written statement along the lines of "we authorize you to sell coupons redeemable for bitcoin using PayPal." This is now in the works. The PayPal agent claims he will get back to me within 24 hours.

You should read up on what happened to coinpal.  They had permission from a Paypal customer service representative, yet Paypal shut them down anyway (and took $5k from the owner's Paypal acct.).

This is a risk I have already accepted. I am prepared to lose all the capital I have invested in this venture. And I am aware of Coinpal and previous failures -- this is why I did not start out accepting PayPal.

However, this said, my PayPal business account is five years old and in good standing, and has transacted a considerable amount of business every year since its creation. Based on my past experience with PayPal, I do not think they will simply close the account and take my money. If they do I may want to file a complaint against them in small claims court here in Brisbane, and this is why I want the written statement from them -- as admissible evidence for a court of law.

My entrepreneurial experience over the years has mostly been in high risk areas (particularly virtual goods) and I think I have some experience in dealing with these matters. Although Matthew would like you and everyone else to believe I'm a 'complete newb' this is not the case. I don't think this really needs to be pointed out, but: my post count on bitcointalk.org does not reflect my actual business experience or wisdom.

Something I have learned about high risk areas is that many who can't will attack those who can to cover their own failings. It may well be the case that it is simply 'impossible' to accept PayPal for bitcoin. But all we know for sure at the moment is that those who have tried -- incuding Matthew -- have failed. In otherwords we know Matthew has failed. He doesn't need to advertise the fact further, especially not on this thread. I don't want or need his 'help' and as I said orginally at the start of this thread, he should go mind his own 'serious business'.

Further, I have been in discussions with 'Maged', a Global Moderator here, and it seems bitcointalk protects its trolls, particularly those pestering honest business threads. To this end I have resolved to simply ignore all further trolling in my threads.

[ALPHA.]

Mr. Coins has earned my respect. Failure, success, you have my admiration. Keep standing your ground.

[btc_artist]

Sounds like you have evaluated your risk. I wish you the best of luck.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Although Matthew would like you and everyone else to believe I'm a 'complete newb' this is not the case.

Further, I have been in discussions with 'Maged', a Global Moderator here, and it seems bitcointalk protects its trolls, particularly those pestering honest business threads.

Yea... you're no newb....

This is a risk I have already accepted. I am prepared to lose all the capital I have invested in this venture. And I am aware of Coinpal and previous failures -- this is why I did not start out accepting PayPal.

I'm having a hard time fathoming what you've 'invested' from looking at your website.

I do not think they will simply close the account and take my money

Please visit paypalsucks.com for more people who thought the same thing.

Although Matthew would like you and everyone else to believe I'm a 'complete newb' this is not the case.

You know, when you posted the first time, you could have avoided me altogether by just answering honestly. Tip for the future.

those who have tried -- incuding Matthew -- have failed.

I lol'ed. Why do you think I'd ever try this failed business idea? I have never tried selling bitcoins through paypal or google checkout. That would be business suicide.

In otherwords we know Matthew has failed.

At quite a few things in life, but not at swimming upstream and ignoring advice. That's you.

Further, I have been in discussions with 'Maged', a Global Moderator here, and it seems bitcointalk protects its trolls, particularly those pestering honest business threads.

I believe the explanation you're looking for is "they don't remove posts I disagree with personally", and more power to them.

I mean this will all the sincerity in my heart: You are not special. You will need luck. Your attitude in dealing with people giving you advice and requiring 2 pages of posts just to break a moment of honesty tells me you are not likely to stand a chance in bitcoin businesses. Good luck-- really.

Let the whiteknighting-- begin!

[mndrix]

This is a risk I have already accepted. I am prepared to lose all the capital I have invested in this venture. And I am aware of Coinpal and previous failures -- this is why I did not start out accepting PayPal.

However, this said, my PayPal business account is five years old and in good standing, and has transacted a considerable amount of business every year since its creation. Based on my past experience with PayPal, I do not think they will simply close the account and take my money. If they do I may want to file a complaint against them in small claims court here in Brisbane, and this is why I want the written statement from them -- as admissible evidence for a court of law.

Kudos for trying PayPal again.  The high-risk stuff is where all the fun is :-)  As you probably already know, I own CoinPal.  I just wanted to interject a couple extra data points to the discussion.  My business account was also several years old, in good standing and transacted business since it was created.  If PayPal considered those factors in their decision, they never mentioned it to me when freezing my account.

When requesting a written statement from PayPal, it might help to be sure you speak with the PayPal Compliance Department.  All other PayPal departments assured me that my business was acceptable.  However, the compliance department overturned all those earlier decisions with 5 minutes warning and a phone call.  Unfortunately, my earlier attempts to reach the compliance department failed and I naively assumed the rest of PayPal staff knew what they were doing.  I'd encourage you to persist until you reach Compliance.

Last point, PayPal removed no funds from my account.  They froze the account for 6 months prohibiting me from withdrawing.  Once the six months expired, they allowed me to withdraw all my funds.  The account is still restricted which prevents me from sending or withdrawing any additional funds.

Just to be clear, I wish you the best of luck in your venture.  I'm not trying to rain on your parade; just helping you know where to hold the umbrella :-)

[btc_artist]

Thanks for the clarification mndrix.

[BurtW]

I lol'ed. Why do you think I'd ever try this failed business idea? I have never tried selling bitcoins through paypal or google checkout. That would be business suicide.

I am very sorry.  This rumor may have started with my failure to read one of your posts as carefully as I should have.  You said:

one of our very own, AccessCoin.com had worked very hard on keeping fraud to a minimum by using Facebook to confirm identities, and even he has been shutdown by Google Checkout and accounts frozen.

And upon my quick reading of this statement I incorrectly read that you were involved with AccessCoin.com and/or it was one of your businesses.

I now see that you were using "our" as in the Bitcoin community.

Sorry about that.  I will get new reading glasses and be more careful in the future.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I lol'ed. Why do you think I'd ever try this failed business idea? I have never tried selling bitcoins through paypal or google checkout. That would be business suicide.

I am very sorry.  This rumor may have started with my failure to read one of your posts as carefully as I should have.  You said:

one of our very own, AccessCoin.com had worked very hard on keeping fraud to a minimum by using Facebook to confirm identities, and even he has been shutdown by Google Checkout and accounts frozen.

And upon my quick reading of this statement I incorrectly read that you were involved with AccessCoin.com and/or it was one of your businesses.

I now see that you were using "our" as in the Bitcoin community.

Sorry about that.  I will get new reading glasses and be more careful in the future.

Ain't no thang.

[Maged]

Mr.Coins, I suggest following the instructions listed here in the Acceptable Use Policy:
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full&locale.x=en_US#Activities Requiring Approval

Based on the business type, you need to send contact information, business website URL and a brief business summary to compliance@paypal.com

[mr.coins]

Kudos for trying PayPal again.  The high-risk stuff is where all the fun is :-)  As you probably already know, I own CoinPal.  I just wanted to interject a couple extra data points to the discussion.  My business account was also several years old, in good standing and transacted business since it was created.  If PayPal considered those factors in their decision, they never mentioned it to me when freezing my account.

When requesting a written statement from PayPal, it might help to be sure you speak with the PayPal Compliance Department.  All other PayPal departments assured me that my business was acceptable.  However, the compliance department overturned all those earlier decisions with 5 minutes warning and a phone call.  Unfortunately, my earlier attempts to reach the compliance department failed and I naively assumed the rest of PayPal staff knew what they were doing.  I'd encourage you to persist until you reach Compliance.

Last point, PayPal removed no funds from my account.  They froze the account for 6 months prohibiting me from withdrawing.  Once the six months expired, they allowed me to withdraw all my funds.  The account is still restricted which prevents me from sending or withdrawing any additional funds.

Just to be clear, I wish you the best of luck in your venture.  I'm not trying to rain on your parade; just helping you know where to hold the umbrella :-)

Hi Mndrix,

Thanks for the information.

I am currently still trying to contact PayPal Australia at their AUP department. When I do, I'll ask how to contact compliance.

If I can get PayPal Australia to issue a written statement then they cannot simply 'overturn it.' As far as I am aware: Under the law of Agency it shouldn't matter which department or which employee's hand the statement comes from. If the agent acts as though they have the authority to make the statement, and sign it binding PayPal Australia, and the company is aware of the actions of its employee but does nothing to stop them, then the company is bound. I'll call the ACCC as well to make sure this is legally the case in Australia.

Cheers,
Richard

[Maged]

If I can get PayPal Australia to issue a written statement then they cannot simply 'overturn it.' As far as I am aware: Under the law of Agency it shouldn't matter which department or which employee's hand the statement comes from. If the agent acts as though they have the authority to make the statement, and sign it binding PayPal Australia, and the company is aware of the actions of its employee but does nothing to stop them, then the company is bound. I'll call the ACCC as well to make sure this is legally the case in Australia.

Two things that I noticed in the user agreement:

1) Any agreement you have with them goes out the window the first time you get a chargeback. And yes, you will get chargebacks. Once you get a chargeback, the user agreement allows them to re-evaluate the risk assessment for you.

2) The standard catch-all clause that allows them to terminate their business with you at any time:

we may close your Account at any time, for any reason, including but not limited to a breach of this Agreement or the policies and documents this Agreement incorporates by reference.

My point here is that no agreement you make with them will legally protect you. The only way around this is to get a lawyer and amend the user agreement, etc. appropriately, then somehow get them to agree, in writing, to this new agreement.

[mr.coins]

Two things that I noticed in the user agreement:

1) Any agreement you have with them goes out the window the first time you get a chargeback. And yes, you will get chargebacks. Once you get a chargeback, the user agreement allows them to re-evaluate the risk assessment for you.

2) The standard catch-all clause that allows them to terminate their business with you at any time:

we may close your Account at any time, for any reason, including but not limited to a breach of this Agreement or the policies and documents this Agreement incorporates by reference.

My point here is that no agreement you make with them will legally protect you. The only way around this is to get a lawyer and amend the user agreement, etc. appropriately, then somehow get them to agree, in writing, to this new agreement.

Thanks for your points.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe in Australia the doctrine of Estoppel produces an automatic ammendment of contractual obligations based on the promisses and assurances of a party to the contract.

Here is a short article on the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Australian_law

But I am hoping not to take them to court or any such drawn-out nonsense. If I can talk to them and get a water-tight written statement of permission to conduct this business from them, then I think this will be adequate. If not, I will look at finding another payment processor.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Two things that I noticed in the user agreement:

1) Any agreement you have with them goes out the window the first time you get a chargeback. And yes, you will get chargebacks. Once you get a chargeback, the user agreement allows them to re-evaluate the risk assessment for you.

2) The standard catch-all clause that allows them to terminate their business with you at any time:

we may close your Account at any time, for any reason, including but not limited to a breach of this Agreement or the policies and documents this Agreement incorporates by reference.

My point here is that no agreement you make with them will legally protect you. The only way around this is to get a lawyer and amend the user agreement, etc. appropriately, then somehow get them to agree, in writing, to this new agreement.

Thanks for your points.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe in Australia the doctrine of Estoppel produces an automatic ammendment of contractual obligations based on the promisses and assurances of a party to the contract.

Here is a short article on the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Australian_law

But I am hoping not to take them to court or any such drawn-out nonsense. If I can talk to them and get a water-tight written statement of permission to conduct this business from them, then I think this will be adequate. If not, I will look at finding another payment processor.

As an experienced 'high-risk' businessman, I have a hard time believing you haven't already prepared numerous processors, estimated their risk levels, and predicted their time-to-life.

[mr.coins]

Notice to our customers:

We have increased our rates and decreased our re-stock speed. This is to reduce our overall sales volume to give us time to better assess charge-back risk over the coming weeks.

Mr Coins is not presently intended for large volume sales. (If you want to buy large volumes of bitcoins, please seek out a seller here on bitcointalk.) We aim to provide liquidity for small bitcoin transactions (typically under 10 BTC.) That is: customers who need a small number of bitcoins for a transaction on short notice can obtain them at Mr Coins.

Depending on our success over the coming weeks in mitigating charge-back and fraud risk, we may increase volume and decrease rates.

Thank you for understanding.

-Richard