high fees to send with electrum wallet (compared to on coinbase)

[user187fr]

hi !

i don't understand something, and i find it quite bad for bitcoin reputation... or for the electrum wallet reputation...

the same day, the same hour, if i try to send the same amount (0.001btc) to the same btc address, using the electrum wallet or using the coinbase exchange, the fees are quite low with the coinbase exchange, but really high with the electrum wallet !

see :

to send 0.001btc to 19ZJTcMRvwd8LzFSebV22bBz57NNTsC22V

with electrum wallet, with min cost per byte, fee = 0.00339709btc = 27.17EUR

with coinbase exchange, fee = 0.00002066btc = 0.16EUR

why ?

what can i do to decrease the sending fee  ? this is not good !

alternatively, can you recommend another wallet (for android) where i can set the address+privatekey (like with electrum wallet) and also choose the fee (less than with electrum wallet)

thanks,

[mocacinno]

Your fee is calculated in Satoshi per vbyte of transaction data. The bigger the transaction the higher the fee.

The size has nothing to do with the value, but depends on the number of inputs, outputs and type of wallet.

Next to this, some wallet might calculate the fee that's necessary to have a big chance of getting into the very next block while another wallet calculated a fee to have a decent chance of getting into one of the 10, 20, 30,... next blocks.

Last but not least, centralized wallets might cover part of the fee for you out of their own pocket, others might overcharge you (fee-wise) depending on how their income model is...

Bottom line: if you collected near-dust inputs (like faucet payment) in your electrum wallet, have a legacy wallet and indicated the transaction is high priority it's possible the fee is much higher than a native segwit wallet with only 1 input of a much higher value that's used to create a low priority transaction

[user187fr]

i have set the transaction to low priority...

what i don't understand is that i have sent the same amount to another wallet a few days ago and the minimum sat per byte was 1.4 but in this case the minimum sate per byte was much higher (for the exact same amount!) (right now the minimum sat per byte is 34.6)

centralized wallets might cover part of the fee for you out of their own pocket, others might overcharge you (fee-wise) depending on how their income model is...

yes i wondered about that, some wallet apps may give priority to their miners friends, so that they can charge more in fees. (only a supposition)

anyway, that's not good and usable (27eur to send 8eur...), i better understand why bitcoin cash was created !


does somebody know if this btc wallet is trustworthy / reliable : https://bitcoin.org/en/wallets/mobile/android/bitcoinwallet/?step=5&platform=android&user=experienced&important=control,transparency,fees&features=legacy_addresses

thanks,

[mocacinno]

Since you said you tried to send the amount on the exact same time, i didn't go into the fluctuations of recommanded fees... But the fees are an incentive for a miner to include your transaction into the block they're trying to solve. Generally speaking: the more unconfirmed transactions, the higher the average fee (because people start to outbid each-other for a space in the next couple of blocks). Average fees can chance dramatically in the blink of an eye.

I'll try to make things a big simpler by giving this analogy... Mind you, the analogy doesn't quite match the technical aspects of the protocol, it is merely a "simple" visualisation trying to explain what's happening.

You have 2 vaults in 2 banks: one bank is called coinbase, the other is called electrum.

In your coinbase vault, you have 20 bills with a denomination of 500€.
In your electrum vault, you have 1.000.000 copper eurocents (0.01€).

Somebody asks you to send them 10.000 € by mail.

You go to your coinbase vault, take the 20 paper bills, put them in an enveloppe and pay 2€ for the enveloppe + stamp
You go to your electrum vault and you'll need 10 big boxes to fit the 1.000.000 copper coins. Each box costs you 100€ in stamps. In total you pay 1000€ to send the 10.000€

Now, you say electrum is no good, since it took you 1000€ to send 10.000€, while coinbase only costed 2€ to send 10.000€... What you don't realise is that it wasn't electrum's fault, the cost was so high because you collected 1.000.000 copper coins.

Same here: i'm 99% sure that electrum was used to collect very small unspent outputs. When you try to spend those unspent outputs, each unspent output will make the transaction bigger, and so it'll increase your fee.
On the other hand, coinbase will probably work with one unspent output, resulting in a very small transaction and a very small fee.

I've been around for a long time, electrum IS trusted. It IS one of the best wallets out there. If the fee is that high, there's a reason for it, and any other decentralised wallet would have resulted in a comparable high fee if it was funded in the same way electrum was.

But, if you really want to know: yes, the wallet you put in your link is trusted (AFAIK), but once again: using that wallet would also have resulted in a very high fee if it was funded with the same small valued unspent outputs.

There's a very small chance i'm wrong, but that chance is not very big to tell you the truth... I've been around long enough to recognize the common pitfalls new users usually get caught up in. Don't throw away a perfectly good desktop wallet because you didn't understand how fees work. Btw: properly generated paper wallets, airgapped wallets and hardware wallets are the most secure wallets out there. Don't hold a lot of funds on a desktop/mobile wallet!

[LoyceV]

I think you're going to want to read Fees are low, use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs!

[Charles-Tim]

@ mocacinno, I am confused, I have used electrum wallet for many times now to transfer such amount and a bit higher amount, I even transfer 0.0025 some days back using android electrum wallet, it charged me 0.00005 btc for the transaction at the normal fee price. I think what user187fr is complaining about is very wrong, or something went wrong somewhere, bitcoin mining fee has never been as high as that.

The link to the image above is http not https?

[mocacinno]

@ mocacinno, I am confused, I have used electrum wallet for many times now to transfer such amount and a bit higher amount, I even transfer 0.0025 some days back using android electrum wallet, it charged me 0.00005 btc for the transaction at the normal fee price. I think what user187fr is complaining about is very wrong, or something went wrong somewhere, bitcoin mining fee has never been has high as that.

Sure it can be that high. Something could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it, like I said before: it's probably a wallet with lots of small inputs...

The optimal fee at this moment is 31 sat/byte.
A transaction from a native segwit wallet with 100 inputs and 2 outputs is about 21000 bytes
This results in an optimal fee of 0.0065 btc.

Like I tried to explain with the postage cost analogy: it's about the number of inputs and outputs, not about their value...
You can transfer a very low value and pay a huge fee, or a huge value with a low fee... Just don't collect dust amounts in your wallet

[BitMaxz]

does somebody know if this btc wallet is trustworthy / reliable : https://bitcoin.org/en/wallets/mobile/android/bitcoinwallet/?step=5&platform=android&user=experienced&important=control,transparency,fees&features=legacy_addresses

thanks,

That wallet is safe but the only problem with this wallet it needs a big space of your phone to download the whole blockchain and it needs to fully synced before you were able to use this wallet properly.

So if you want to use this you need to use a phone with an updated version and has a big amount of space.

Electrum mobile is a great wallet and I think you are just confused using it.

Other alternative mobile wallets that you can use below

- Mycelium - You can able to choose from low priority to high priority(Miners fee) it also supports some altcoin.
- Coinomi - You can able to choose from custom, low, normal, and high priority and it supports many altcoins.

[Charles-Tim]

That wallet is safe but the only problem with this wallet it needs a big space of your phone to download the whole blockchain and it needs to fully synced before you were able to use this wallet properly.

Bitcoin core (desktop) wallet is the wallet that requires the download of the whole blockchain, bitcoin android wallet is just an spv version and does not require the download of the whole blockchain.

- Coinomi - You can able to choose from custom, low, normal, and high priority and it supports many altcoins.

If talking about bitcoin wallet on mobile phones, mycelium will be good alternative to electrum, it is open source. Coinomi is close sources, but I do not have options for altcoins, so, I use coinomi for altcoins.

[tranthidung]

I strongly believe that you don't modify options in your Electrum wallet and you sent your bitcoin out with default option and automatically suggested fee that is higher than what you can do to save fees (if what you care about are fees, not speed and waiting time for your transactions).

In Electrum
Tools - Preferences - Edit fees manually (check current status of this option in your wallet)
I believe the option is not chosen in your wallet. Tick at it from now on
Consolidate your inputs whenever you can with as lowest fee as possible, as suggested by LoyceV.

Always check the mempool before doing so. If you notice you will see three options for fee esitmation in Electrum:

• Mempool
• Static
• ETA

You can check the mempool status at https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#1,30d The link I gave you is for latest 30 days, you can modify the time period to 2h, 8h, 24h, 2d, 4d, 1w, 2w, etc. for your needs.

I think you're going to want to read Fees are low, use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs!

There are often (not always) times in days you can move your funds at 1 satoshi/ byte but days in weekend often give you lowest fees and higher opportunities to fastly move your funds at 1 satoshi/byte.

• Bitcoin transaction fees (in sats/kb). Sunday, Saturday are best to move BTC

[Lucius]

Like I tried to explain with the postage cost analogy: it's about the number of inputs and outputs, not about their value...
You can transfer a very low value and pay a huge fee, or a huge value with a low fee... Just don't collect dust amounts in your wallet

The whole wisdom is actually that everyone should be aware that they can’t generalize things without being aware of facts that are unfortunately technical so people don’t understand them. As for Electrum, at least there is a Preview button where all the parameters of the transaction can be seen and, everyone should use this option to see how many transactions have inputs and how many outputs + what is the size of the transaction.

He can then find some Bitcoin fee calculator and try to determine the amount of the fee that suits his needs at that time. But it all takes a little time and understanding, far from inserting a bank card into an ATM and typing a 4-digit PIN.

anyway, that's not good and usable (27eur to send 8eur...), i better understand why bitcoin cash was created !

BCH was created to enrich individuals like Roger Ver and CW Faketoshi, not to solve problems that exist with the speed of confirmations or the amount of fees. If that were the case then everyone would use BCH, and we wouldn’t call it shitcoin today. There is nothing problematic in the fees we pay to transfer BTC, the problem is the fact that some users use something they do not fully understand.

[HCP]

There is nothing problematic in the fees we pay to transfer BTC, the problem is the fact that some users use something they do not fully understand.

Quoted for truth... a lot of people jumped on the Bitcoin hype train when it was exploding through $10K the first time as they seemed to believe there was "Easy Money"™ to be made, but had zero understanding of how it all worked...

And then we saw the increase in "stuck transaction" and "omg I just paid $100 in fees, wtf??!?" type threads... along with the stories of "seed/private key entered into fake website", "scam wallets downloaded" etc etc.

Cryptocurrency can be an unforgiving place if you don't take the time to read and learn.

[user187fr]

@mocacinno :

you say electrum is no good, since it took you 1000€ to send 10.000€, while coinbase only costed 2€ to send 10.000€... What you don't realise is that it wasn't electrum's fault, the cost was so high because you collected 1.000.000 copper coins.

what why are you talking about 2 different money kinds ? i just tried to send btc in both cases same amount (0.001btc), to the same address, at same day / time

i'm 99% sure that electrum was used to collect very small unspent outputs. When you try to spend those unspent outputs, each unspent output will make the transaction bigger, and so it'll increase your fee.
On the other hand, coinbase will probably work with one unspent output, resulting in a very small transaction and a very small fee.

no idea what this means... i just want to transfer btc from one address to another address...




@tranthidung :

I strongly believe that you don't modify options in your Electrum wallet and you sent your bitcoin out with default option and automatically suggested fee that is higher than what you can do to save fees (if what you care about are fees, not speed and waiting time for your transactions).

i have used the ETA option lowest priority, but i see the STATIC option where i can set a specific sat/byte
i will test this, thanks !



@lucius :

There is nothing problematic in the fees we pay to transfer BTC, the problem is the fact that some users use something they do not fully understand.

well i have read all the answers and will try to understand how to set a more appropriate sat/byte depending on network condition, but be sure that most people won't do that, if they have a similar issue they will just complain and not use btc anymore...

not to solve problems that exist with the speed of confirmations or the amount of fees. If that were the case then everyone would use BCH, and we wouldn’t call it shitcoin today.

it is not popular because newcomers go to bitcoin core first, and don't try to understand why btc and bch are separate versions of bitcoin. and many are here to invest money to gain more, they don't care about the usefulness / greater cause. (personally i like both, but i don't fully trust any, but i don't trust my bank or the central bank, so here i am...  )



anyway, i just did an experiment  to transfer the same amount (0.001btc) to the same address, at the same day / time (right now!)
0.001btc = 80eur (assuming 1btc = 8000eur)

with coinbase :
fee = 0.00002404btc = 0.19eur

with electrum wallet (android) :
EPA, lowest priority, fee = 0.00023188btc = 1.85eur (yesterday evening, for same amount sent the fee was 0.00339709btc = 27.17EUR...)
STATIC, 10sat/byte, fee = 0.0000374btc = 0.29eur

with bitcoincore wallet (android) :
fee = 0.000956btc = 7.64eur (yesterday evening, for same amount sent the fee was 0.000056btc = 0.44eur...)

well this is annoying... i forsee how mass people won't use btc with such variable (sometimes high!) fees...


anyway i will take a look at the threads you suggested, thanks!
 

[hosseinimr93]

what why are you talking about 2 different money kinds ? i just tried to send btc in both cases same amount (0.001btc), to the same address, at same day / time

The fee you pay for a transaction doesn't depend on the amount you send. It depends on transaction size.
The size of a transaction depends on number of inputs and outputs.
So, more outputs you receive, higher fee you need to pay when sending them.

Let's say, you have received 0.001 BTC from address A in a single transaction and you are going to send the 0.001 BTC to address B. In this case, your transaction has 1 input and 1 output.
Assuming you are sending the 0.001 BTC from a legacy address to a legacy address, the transaction size would be about 200 bytes.

Now, assume that you have received 10 transactions. 0001 BTC in each of them. Now you have 0.001 BTC and you are going the 0.001 BTC to another address.
In this case, you are sending a same amount, but your transaction has 10 inputs. Assuming you are sending from legacy address to a legacy address the transaction size would be about 1500 bytes.

Assuming you pay 10 sat for every byte, the fee you need to pay when you have only one input is 2,000 satoshi while it's 15,000 satoshi when you have 10 inputs.

Also note that, even if you send 1 BTC instead of 0.001 BTC, but have same number of inputs and outputs, there won't be any difference in the fee you need to pay.

[BitMaxz]

~snip~
 

I have another suggestion if you want to have full control of your mining fees every time you make a transaction, what you need to do is make a raw transaction from here https://coinb.in/#newTransaction use chrome browser or any browser that supports javascript.

Now start making your own unsigned raw transaction in Coinb.in. This time you can fully edit the transaction fee. Just put the BTC address of your wallet.

You can follow the guide from here below.
- How to create, sign and broadcast transactions using coinb.in

Once you make an unsigned raw transaction, you can copy it and paste it to your Electrum wallet on the mobile and sign the transaction, but before you sign the transaction make sure to review the transaction first before you sign and broadcast the transaction.

This is an advanced option and optional if you are willing to edit the mining fees to the lowest fees or fees you want, you can follow the guide from mocacinno blog from the link above as a reference guide.

[HCP]

anyway, i just did an experiment  to transfer the same amount (0.001btc) to the same address, at the same day / time (right now!)
0.001btc = 80eur (assuming 1btc = 8000eur)

with coinbase :
fee = 0.00002404btc = 0.19eur

with electrum wallet (android) :
EPA, lowest priority, fee = 0.00023188btc = 1.85eur (yesterday evening, for same amount sent the fee was 0.00339709btc = 27.17EUR...)
STATIC, 10sat/byte, fee = 0.0000374btc = 0.29eur

with bitcoincore wallet (android) :
fee = 0.000956btc = 7.64eur (yesterday evening, for same amount sent the fee was 0.000056btc = 0.44eur...)

well this is annoying... i forsee how mass people won't use btc with such variable (sometimes high!) fees...

Your problem is that you're possibly not comparing apples to apples...

As the others have tried to explain, it's not the amount of BTC you're trying to send... Or the address you're sending to...

It's the actual data size of the transaction you are creating... Measured in bytes... And the thing that has the largest effect on the data size, is the number of inputs (and to a smaller extent, the number of outputs being generated).

Because of the way Bitcoin is received and "stored" when you are using Desktop/Mobile wallets, this can sometimes result in transactions that you generate from these wallets having larger data sizes than when using centralised services like Coinbase... As these services can use various tricks to minimise transaction sizes (like batching transactions etc)

The trade off is that you have full control over these desktop/mobile wallets (unlike centralised custodial wallet services like Coinbase) and don't need to worry about KYC etc.

Also, don't just accept whatever fee rate a wallet tells you that you need to use... They're "best guess" algorithms... and the Bitcoin network can be quite volatile. Read the various threads and learn how to determine what a "good fee rate" is based on the network conditions at the time you are sending your transactions.

[Lucius]

@lucius :

There is nothing problematic in the fees we pay to transfer BTC, the problem is the fact that some users use something they do not fully understand.

well i have read all the answers and will try to understand how to set a more appropriate sat/byte depending on network condition, but be sure that most people won't do that, if they have a similar issue they will just complain and not use btc anymore...

I fully understand your opinion when you refer to certain things, but the fact is that if you do not fully understand something, you can not use its full potential and you come to quite confusing situations. What confuses you is that you have to pay a different fee for the same amount of BTC that you send from your desktop wallet or from Coinbase, and that this fee is further changed (not the same in the morning and evening).

But you have to differentiate your desktop wallet from Coinbase, and try to understand all the factors that affect the amount of the fee, everything is already explained in great detail, but of course you need time to connect all the points. Bitcoin is far from perfect, but it is still technically improving and moving towards becoming more user-friendly - but as I wrote before it can't be that simple to equate to a bank card you insert into an ATM and type in a PIN of 4 digits.

If you really want to understand how everything works, I'm sure you can quickly reach a sufficient level of experience - understand Bitcoin as a currency used by slightly more technically advanced people