I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business...

[LibraryAnn]

Topic inspired by this excellent post: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221497.0

I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business in the USA (and many other places) without it? To be clear, individuals cannot use vital services without obeying the requests, and businesses cannot exist without obeying the SEC rules. We need new ways to help BTC go mainstream without all the BS. Any ideas?

[jackg]

You can trade on the forum or use other services (such as cash in hand or at bank otc - where you can just key in numbers into a cash atm).

[JeromeTash]

If you are an active trader, one way is exchanging your fiat and cryptocurrency using P2P platforms that do not require KYC
You can check out these lists to find one that is suitable for you.
- Help: A list of LocalBitcoin alternatives (P2P marketplaces)
- List of P2P/no-KYC exchanges

[pooya87]

making everything else more decentralized to be closer to bitcoin's decentralization works best. the reason why KYC can be applied to certain services is because they are centralized. for instance for traders the exchanges could become decentralized like the decentralized exchanges (DEX) that we have seen so far but need more work, for marketplaces the marketplace itself could become decentralized like the P2P trades that take place all over the internet or the more sophisticated solutions such as OpenBazaar which offers you a lot more functionality.

[tranthidung]

If you are an active trader, one way is exchanging your fiat and cryptocurrency using P2P platforms that do not require KYC
You can check out these lists to find one that is suitable for you.
- Help: A list of LocalBitcoin alternatives (P2P marketplaces)
- List of P2P/no-KYC exchanges

P2P marketplaces are alternatives but to be exact, not all of P2P marketplaces don't require KYC.

KYC is always risky in my opinion because customers have to submit their personal documents (which types to submit depends on level of KYCs as well as requirements for each exchanges or marketplaces). Another big risky factor is not all exchanges or P2P marketplaces verify KYCs by themselves. Many of them use third-party services to verify KYC documents for their customers. From such hierarchy KYC process, customers have accept double risks: Risks of losing their personal documents to exchanges/ PP marketplaces; and risks of losing theirs to third-party services. As a combined effects, risks for data leaks / privacy breaches are so high.

I would like to say no to KYC as much as I can do.

[gentlemand]

Most people are willing to trade convenience for anonymity, including me. You can smooth that a bit by being picky about who you do business with.

The idea of doing KYC with some no mark ICO is laughable. I wouldn't send them a photo of my stools, let alone anything else. Somewhere like Coinbase may be assholes but at least they should be competent when it comes to data security.

Bitcoin will not go mainstream without centralised third party services. That's a straightforward fact. The overwhelming majority of people want their hand held and someone to moan to. The best we can do is help to kill off the piece of shit operations now by shunning them.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Personally, avoid any centralized exchanges. Use decentralized or peer to peer exchanges like Bisq, LocalCryptos, Hodl Hodl, this forum's currency exchange board, etc. Use local bitcoin meet ups or events to find people you can trade with in person.

For businesses, avoid using centralized payment processors such as BitPay. Set up your own wallet manually, or use a self hosted platform such as BTCPay. Pay your employees and suppliers in bitcoin to avoid the need to exchange to fiat.

More generally, the best way to avoid KYC is to avoid touching fiat. If you can stay entirely within the bitcoin ecosystem, then the need for KYC almost disappears.

[UserU]

Personally, avoid any centralized exchanges. Use decentralized or peer to peer exchanges like Bisq, LocalCryptos, Hodl Hodl, this forum's currency exchange board, etc. Use local bitcoin meet ups or events to find people you can trade with in person.

For businesses, avoid using centralized payment processors such as BitPay. Set up your own wallet manually, or use a self hosted platform such as BTCPay. Pay your employees and suppliers in bitcoin to avoid the need to exchange to fiat.

More generally, the best way to avoid KYC is to avoid touching fiat. If you can stay entirely within the bitcoin ecosystem, then the need for KYC almost disappears.

But for many, they would definitely want to realize their profits at some point.

[Lordhermes]

making everything else more decentralized to be closer to bitcoin's decentralization works best. the reason why KYC can be applied to certain services is because they are centralized. for instance for traders the exchanges could become decentralized like the decentralized exchanges (DEX) that we have seen so far but need more work, for marketplaces the marketplace itself could become decentralized like the P2P trades that take place all over the internet or the more sophisticated solutions such as OpenBazaar which offers you a lot more functionality.

Additionally, KYC system disrupt the concept business relationship in both physical and digital world, China preventing US to stay away from there products vice versa but the essence question here is, how about African that is not from either China and US but perform KYC  when the platform would automatically verify the VPN as once.

[minairia3]

For businesses, avoid using centralized payment processors such as BitPay. Set up your own wallet manually, or use a self hosted platform such as BTCPay. Pay your employees and suppliers in bitcoin to avoid the need to exchange to fiat.

For example wanted to launch a business using crypto and my target customers or clients are prefered their bank or known centralized fiat money. How would my business grow? Forcing them to pay cryptocurrency, let say the payment for the business includes fiat and crypto, but they dont know how to use crypto, it will be tough for my business to progress if only crypto payment alone.

But for many, they would definitely want to realize their profits at some point.

Yes, I believe anyone doing cryptocurrency will trade their profits for cash, and will not settle for bitcoin cause if you think about it, how can you buy food or goods with crypto if its not accepted. We dont have a choice but to convert it to fiat, and centralized market forces as the KYC to do so. Unless we can find someone to transact with us peer to peer but this will be hassle to look for and have some trust issue. Yes we can do it here. But some those who wanted to transact does not have account here, which hassle for them to do business since they will be needed to create an account first and not a good start cause they will be alleged as scammer since their account is newbie.

[skarais]

More generally, the best way to avoid KYC is to avoid touching fiat. If you can stay entirely within the bitcoin ecosystem, then the need for KYC almost disappears.

Sound good, but not many people can do it, sir. For many reason I think bounty hunter, signature participant, trader, investor, miner, gambler and other will likely exchange crypto asset for fiat. This is very possible for those who are under the law of a country that still prohibit the use of bitcoin and other crypto as legal tender.

Your suggestion might be accepted by those who can make bitcoin as a means of payment where the country has legalized the use of bitcoin as a payment tool that is the same as fiat. Meanwhile, I have to exchange my bitcoin or crypto to fiat because of the demand made by the regulation.

[o_e_l_e_o]

But for many, they would definitely want to realize their profits at some point.

You can realize profits without cashing out to fiat by spending your bitcoin directly on goods and services. I've taken profits, so to speak, by buying everything from computer parts to groceries.

Forcing them to pay cryptocurrency, let say the payment for the business includes fiat and crypto, but they dont know how to use crypto, it will be tough for my business to progress if only crypto payment alone.

The vast majority of businesses which accept bitcoin accept it alongside fiat, not exclusively.

We dont have a choice but to convert it to fiat, and centralized market forces as the KYC to do so. Unless we can find someone to transact with us peer to peer but this will be hassle to look for and have some trust issue.

There are entire platforms designed to make peer to peer trading as simple as possible, as I said above. Or if you really want to use a centralized service, then you could buy gift cards without KYC to then buy goods.

[UserU]

You can realize profits without cashing out to fiat by spending your bitcoin directly on goods and services. I've taken profits, so to speak, by buying everything from computer parts to groceries.

You mean via local services/ shops in your country?

[o_e_l_e_o]

You mean via local services/ shops in your country?

Yes. I spend bitcoin everywhere from a couple of vendors at a local farmers' market who accept bitcoin mostly because I constantly asked them to, right up to massive corporations like Newegg and Overstock.

See if you can find places to spend your bitcoin directly in your own country. There are a number of directory sites which list shops and merchants who accept bitcoin. If you can't find any, then try asking small independent retailers to consider it or use one of the many gift card sites. Doing so not only allows you to avoid KYC but also helps to spread adoption and encourage growth.

[wxa7115]

Topic inspired by this excellent post: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221497.0

I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business in the USA (and many other places) without it? To be clear, individuals cannot use vital services without obeying the requests, and businesses cannot exist without obeying the SEC rules. We need new ways to help BTC go mainstream without all the BS. Any ideas?

This is easy to explain but difficult to implement, we need to go back to the idea of being your own bank, big exchanges and business will always attract the attention of governments and they will be regulated, if you want to avoid this then there is only one way to do it and that is for people to accept to trade bitcoin among each other.

This is not as convenient as it is to use a centralized service but if you want to go out of your way to guarantee your privacy you do not really have any other option.

[famososMuertos]

Yes! we are in a bitcoin forum and it is presumed that generally 99% is always about bitcoin.

But if you use in your title:
Re: I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business...

And OP:

Topic inspired by this excellent post: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221497.0

I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business in the USA (and many other places) without it? To be clear, individuals cannot use vital services without obeying the requests, and businesses cannot exist without obeying the SEC rules. We need new ways to help BTC go mainstream without all the BS. Any ideas?

At no time do you mention bitcoin or even cryptocurrencies. Let's go! It's about how you handle information and what kind of business you do. (please understand my point)

By not placing after "business ..." nothing specific, to unleash the use of any currency, Fiat or cryptographic, even other types of payment.

...Fiat.
In the 100% of "serious" businesses that Fiat involves, you need KYC.
But we go to the most earthly or "common" (working class) in their day to day, buy in the e-commerce (eg) they do not ask for KYC but you pay with credit card, so, what I call the KYC in disguise.

So what happens? You cannot do business without KYC.
Companies like Paypal (for...not to make the story so long) emerged in the late 90s, but it had its boom in the early 21st century, names such as Neteller, Skrill, etc. can be added. The traditional Wallets dominated  the Internet shopping boom.

At that time, the issue of access to privileged information by those with whom you did business began to become massive, yes! massive! that is to say, you were no longer a few (the pioneers of the cryptogram, experts users ...) who worried about how our information was available with and without consent.

Those traditional wallets served to prevent third parties with whom we did business from accessing personal information.

But

You had to "do or do" KYC with these companies, the positive (if this qualification fits) is that the privileged information was reduced to one, to do business with many.

Opinion based on my experience with this type of KYC:
I think there are at least more than 50 traditional wallets that are still used today, which can be called reliable, of those I have used at least 8 of the most popular, that is, in some I did KYC, more than 20 years ago, until today I have had no problems.

KYC is not okay, but when there is no other alternative, try common sense in conjunction with very good information.

... Bitcoin.
Simple, It is not KYC, although here if there is YES and No.

[Asuspawer09]

Topic inspired by this excellent post: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221497.0

I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business in the USA (and many other places) without it? To be clear, individuals cannot use vital services without obeying the requests, and businesses cannot exist without obeying the SEC rules. We need new ways to help BTC go mainstream without all the BS. Any ideas?

It is obvious that KYC could be dangerous in some ways concerning some issues in your informations.

however KYC always a requirement when it comes to legitimate companies, like for example banks etc. Could also help with some issues or scams to easily track someone.

It is only dangerous when you give it to scam websites or companies. We know that legitimate companies somehow sell our data but identity is different.

[pixie85]

I buy gift cards and avoid KYC exchanges, although I made a mistake and had a Coinbase account for a few years.

KYC is not mandatory everywhere, but if you are a trader it's going to be very difficult to avoid it in the US, especially if you're trading more than 4 figures, then it becomes almost impossible.

If you're a normal investor and want to sell some coins and buy yourself something nice you can still do it without going through KYC by trading P2P, buying gift cards or selling coins in person. Just remember to not go alone

[Febo]

Topic inspired by this excellent post: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221497.0

I am concerned about the dangers of KYC, but how do you do business in the USA (and many other places) without it? To be clear, individuals cannot use vital services without obeying the requests, and businesses cannot exist without obeying the SEC rules. We need new ways to help BTC go mainstream without all the BS. Any ideas?

You nee dot do KYC for anything related to fiat money so KYC already is mainstream. It is not something mainstream is afraid of.

What you should do is to do KYC at places where you speculate ( you can never be sure) that they will hold your information secured.  So you pick reputable exchanges and services. You dont pick many. You pick just enough to fit your needs. Best just one. They you pray god that that exchange will be information leak free for the next 50 years.