building a crypto criminal database

[TNA]

This company in South Korea is figuring out that once a cyber criminal, always a cyber criminal. They found that two separate big crypto crimes shared the same exchange account for onramping or offramping. Of course most of it was done with Bitcoin. Don't know how it will get better before getting worse.

https://thenews.asia/hyungoo-kim-tracking-cryptocurrency-cyber-crimes/

[20kevin20]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. While I obviously do want these cybercriminals to be found and arrested, I have a bad feeling whenever I see the words "Bitcoin" and "tracking" in the same sentence. It only looks like the "let's find a way to identify BTC users" plot thickens every day.

Hyungwoo Kim, CEO of Uppsala Security explained how domestic South Korean money laundering and cyber crime experts still roam free in the country using cryptocurrency.

(..)

Second, he explained that as he helped law enforcement discover the identities of some of the nth-room degenerates through their ETH, BTC, and Monero transactions, (..)

Kim made a straightforward plea to the audience that as cases of cyber crimes via cryptocurrency proliferate and are exposed, countermeasures against them should evolve. (..) His suggestion was to identify criminal wallets and flag them so that they cannot be used in the future.

Fortunately for law enforcement, cryptocurrency cyber crimes are easy to track.

Reading through the lines, my previous statement is further confirmed. So how are we going to flag criminal wallets so that they cannot be used in the future? Because that's censorship, and Bitcoin is a censorship-free cryptocurrency.

As others have told me in a previous thread of mine about mixers, at one point we will most likely all own Bitcoins that came from addresses that have been used in criminal activity or in mixers. So are we going to flag all these addresses? How do you censor a censorship-free system?

[TNA]

Yeah I feel you on being uneasy about tracking and flagging wallets. Seems like something a centralized system would have levied on it. That said, countries have their best interests in mind. The crimes being committed with cryptos in SK seem pretty bad so they probably want to mitigate that any way they can.

[bittraffic]

Its easy to track they say.  Its their project so if they can track criminals and put it in a database then tis their call. Blockchain tracks can be used to build cases and proof just how as we find it useful in finance.

Korean exchanges and probably the rest of the exchanges in Asia like Binance had already grabbed a lot of information from us as part of their database to scrape.

[Darker45]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. While I obviously do want these cybercriminals to be found and arrested, I have a bad feeling whenever I see the words "Bitcoin" and "tracking" in the same sentence. It only looks like the "let's find a way to identify BTC users" plot thickens every day.

And the worst feeling ever is when the words Bitcoin and crime/criminal are in the same sentence. That's when Bitcoin is dismissed as a dirty currency. And, as such, it has to be severely regulated in such a way that its wings are clipped hard. This means government resources and powers are utilized to arrest the freedom that Bitcoin is providing to the people.

When these two words are almost equated, that's when the mere mention of Bitcoin evokes fear in people and a stereotype is created.

countermeasures against them should evolve.

I guess it is not enough to implement the likes of KYC and all. There might come a time when people will have to register their Bitcoin address.

[tomahawk9]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. While I obviously do want these cybercriminals to be found and arrested, I have a bad feeling whenever I see the words "Bitcoin" and "tracking" in the same sentence. It only looks like the "let's find a way to identify BTC users" plot thickens every day.

bad feeling? that thing that you're thinking is already happening. Bitcoin tracking, blockchain analysis, tracking of users, etc, none of that is new to the crypto ecosystem. The latest news about Coinbanse^[1] was pretty much a confirmation that big exchanges are working hand-to-hand with the govt

1. https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/71261/coinbase-is-selling-blockchain-analytics-software-to-the-us-secret-service

[Assface16678]

There are a lot of people are making a crime with the use of the cryptocurrency because they think no one will detect and find out them because with the use of the transactions they made but they are wrong because once you are a criminal into the world of the internet let's say you are a hacker everything you made there is a digital footprint this is called for the things we are doing to the Internet and we can not avoid leaving a footprint on it that's why they caught immediately I don't think so why they are still doing this job because this is an illegal I know they want to earn money but still there is another way to do this.

That's the reason why some of the platforms requiring the use of the KYC so they can verify all of their users and avoid getting too many problems and the help if there is. trouble might happen with their platform even in data.

[thesmallgod]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. While I obviously do want these cybercriminals to be found and arrested, I have a bad feeling whenever I see the words "Bitcoin" and "tracking" in the same sentence. It only looks like the "let's find a way to identify BTC users" plot thickens every day.

Hyungwoo Kim, CEO of Uppsala Security explained how domestic South Korean money laundering and cyber crime experts still roam free in the country using cryptocurrency.

(..)

Second, he explained that as he helped law enforcement discover the identities of some of the nth-room degenerates through their ETH, BTC, and Monero transactions, (..)

Kim made a straightforward plea to the audience that as cases of cyber crimes via cryptocurrency proliferate and are exposed, countermeasures against them should evolve. (..) His suggestion was to identify criminal wallets and flag them so that they cannot be used in the future.

Fortunately for law enforcement, cryptocurrency cyber crimes are easy to track.

Reading through the lines, my previous statement is further confirmed. So how are we going to flag criminal wallets so that they cannot be used in the future? Because that's censorship, and Bitcoin is a censorship-free cryptocurrency.

As others have told me in a previous thread of mine about mixers, at one point we will most likely all own Bitcoins that came from addresses that have been used in criminal activity or in mixers. So are we going to flag all these addresses? How do you censor a censorship-free system?

It is difficult in the sense most people want to trade anonymously but bad eggs are using it in a wrong way. Cryptoscam addresses are being stamped but the problem is that when it is being mixed, the scammer receive a new coin into addresses that were not be stamped. The only way forward is if the mixing services can detect crypto from addresses associated with scam which might be generally against their services. I literally think it is impossible to separate tracking from bitcoin if you want to retrieve stolen coin

[CODE200]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. While I obviously do want these cybercriminals to be found and arrested, I have a bad feeling whenever I see the words "Bitcoin" and "tracking" in the same sentence. It only looks like the "let's find a way to identify BTC users" plot thickens every day.

bad feeling? that thing that you're thinking is already happening. Bitcoin tracking, blockchain analysis, tracking of users, etc, none of that is new to the crypto ecosystem. The latest news about Coinbanse^[1] was pretty much a confirmation that big exchanges are working hand-to-hand with the govt

1. https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/71261/coinbase-is-selling-blockchain-analytics-software-to-the-us-secret-service

Yet they can't be trace, what can we do more for bitcoin address flagging? we can't do much on that thing tho, they can just create bitcoin addresses with simple clicks. All we can do is track all the transaction interconnected to the addresses made for scam and fraud, then we can just warn the others to stay away from those addresses and that's it. It would be more challenging for a particular organization to find these criminals than they think of it. So it is more like of just an online blotter, nothing more, nothing less.

[20kevin20]

bad feeling? that thing that you're thinking is already happening. Bitcoin tracking, blockchain analysis, tracking of users, etc, none of that is new to the crypto ecosystem. The latest news about Coinbanse^[1] was pretty much a confirmation that big exchanges are working hand-to-hand with the govt

I'm getting a bad feeling as in I feel like it's only getting worse every time a new article pops up with these two terms.

And the worst feeling ever is when the words Bitcoin and crime/criminal are in the same sentence. That's when Bitcoin is dismissed as a dirty currency. And, as such, it has to be severely regulated in such a way that its wings are clipped hard. This means government resources and powers are utilized to arrest the freedom that Bitcoin is providing to the people.

When these two words are almost equated, that's when the mere mention of Bitcoin evokes fear in people and a stereotype is created.

This shows how silly and lazy the world has become. It literally takes you one "USD used in crimes in 2019" Google search to find out how manipulated you get by reading the press. Personal opinion: most of the people who get different things shaped up in their minds the wrong way are the same people who only read article titles and get to a conclusion solely based on them.

It is difficult in the sense most people want to trade anonymously but bad eggs are using it in a wrong way. Cryptoscam addresses are being stamped but the problem is that when it is being mixed, the scammer receive a new coin into addresses that were not be stamped. The only way forward is if the mixing services can detect crypto from addresses associated with scam which might be generally against their services. I literally think it is impossible to separate tracking from bitcoin if you want to retrieve stolen coin

I understand there are criminals out there, but it's not my fault and I don't think it's right for them to take yet another right/freedom away from me because a douche is using BTC for his illegal activity. Nor is it okay at all to try censoring a free currency. This is probably going to be a continuous cat-and-mouse chasing game where at one point there's going to be a winner: the authorities or us.

There surely has been an instance even you have been through where you paid in cash at a shop and the banknotes you've used have once been used in an assassination or some other crime. This "used in crimes" excuse is just without sense .. honestly. It's a stupid excuse for abusive control.

[avikz]

Its easy to track they say.  Its their project so if they can track criminals and put it in a database then tis their call. Blockchain tracks can be used to build cases and proof just how as we find it useful in finance.

Korean exchanges and probably the rest of the exchanges in Asia like Binance had already grabbed a lot of information from us as part of their database to scrape.

Yes and that surprises me! I know bitcoin is not completely anonymous. But unless and until the money is flown into a regulated business like exchanges, payment services, it's very difficult to track the sender. So this bold statement is really surprising. Quote from the article below,

Fortunately for law enforcement, cryptocurrency cyber crimes are easy to track. Every single transaction on the Bitcoin and Ethereum blockchains are recorded and immutable, meaning they are permanent and cannot be altered. Therefore, the transaction history of every wallet, including those on exchanges, can be tracked from the instant they are created. As more information about cyber crimes is collected, the faster the public and law enforcement can react to the crimes themselves.

But at the end of the day, innocent people shouldn't be tracked and questioned for no reason. In any way, if someone is not related to any crime, they should be safe!

[Twentyonepaylots]

Its easy to track they say.  Its their project so if they can track criminals and put it in a database then tis their call. Blockchain tracks can be used to build cases and proof just how as we find it useful in finance.

Korean exchanges and probably the rest of the exchanges in Asia like Binance had already grabbed a lot of information from us as part of their database to scrape.

Yes and that surprises me! I know bitcoin is not completely anonymous. But unless and until the money is flown into a regulated business like exchanges, payment services, it's very difficult to track the sender. So this bold statement is really surprising. Quote from the article below,

Exchanges can freeze an account if anything needs to be investigated, you can actually see this on their terms and conditions, by this authority ( cyber crime group ) can enter the scene to look for something shady in relation to any crime that can be committed online. Tracking is easy, in fact every one can do this since the blockchain is publicly stored however the tracing for who is the one using the address is nearly impossible, I haven't heard any one that has been tracked because they located their IP, just remember the fact that IP can be faked using VPNs.

[DoubleEdgeEX]

Companies like chainalyses can easily track BTC already so that´s not the point. I´m afraid to gain more users and to reach some sort of mass adoption it needs to be safer to use Bitcoin, perceived safer from the newbies! A criminal database could help emowering that feel of security, again especially for rookies

[Coyster]

This "used in crimes" excuse is just without sense .. honestly. It's a stupid excuse for abusive control.

Our government over here passed a bill sometime last year to regulate posts made on social media, it was called the social media bill, and the excuse was that people used their social media accounts to defame the government. But in truth, it's more of used to expose to the rest of the world how corrupt and inefficient the government is.

You and i should not be surprised with how governments make excuses to suit their own policies, when India banned Chinese apps, the excuse was China were spying on their citizens, but the true reason is the border war between the two countries. Ironically, bitcoin being used in crimes is really very microscopic in scale, fiat covers more than 90% of the tools used in crimes or money laundering; the government only want censorship, they want to regulate/mediate it, so we're being presented with the best possible excuse as usual.

[dothebeats]

It's as if most of them are finding a way or two to monitor the movements of people, and are just using the words "criminals' vaguely to further their agenda and have a justification on what they do. I do not condone criminal activities and any activities relating to it, but if it crosses the line on civilian's privacy and right to keep their information safe and secure, that's when I step up. Besides, there are tons of analysis tools that law enforcement use to catch criminals on their feet doing nefarious things, why add yet another method on doing so? Idk, perhaps they are exaggerating their response to criminal activities concerning crypto, when in reality most of the dirty stuff happens in fiat.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So how are we going to flag criminal wallets so that they cannot be used in the future? Because that's censorship, and Bitcoin is a censorship-free cryptocurrency.

There is no way to disable to an address at the protocol level without a fork, which obviously the community will never agree to. So the best they can do is build a database of "flagged" addresses and appeal to centralized exchanges and services to refuse service to these addresses.

How is that a viable option, though. They can't stop those coins from moving, so what if the coins are mixed? What if they are sent to an exchange which doesn't follow the blacklist? What if they take part in a coinjoin transaction? Do you add every known output of said mixer or exchange to the blacklist? Do you blacklist every output from the coinjoin? What if the coins are simply sent to a new address? What about after 10 transactions? 100? 1000? How many addresses do you blacklist? It's a completely untenable solution, and soon enough, every bitcoin in circulation will have been tainted in some way.

I'm all for identifying and apprehending individuals who steal other user's money, but I draw at line at when doing so infringes on my rights. Whenever there is talk about banning encryption, banning bitcoin, banning privacy, then not only do you lose my support, but you also reveal that you don't know what you are talking about.

[20kevin20]

~

The only option they have is pushing for mandatory KYC for any kind of usage of BTC, with no more anonymous limits. Feels like they're slowly starting to whisper "KYC isn't enough anymore, guys", doesn't it?

Their "anti-criminal strategy" falls off a huge cliff the moment you start wondering how these hackers will cash out.. because they are most likely not that stupid to ever move their coins to a centralized exchange anyway. They'll probably use Bisq or other p2p methods in combination with mixers to get through unseen, so how useful is this blockchain identification thing then if the ways they'll cash out are KYC-less anyway?

Is it really useful in the case of preventing cybercrimes or is it not useful at all and just a pretext to try and take a good grip over the control/surveillance handle? Will it do more criminal prevention than it will harm the average Joe's privacy?

We'll probably reach the boiling point the moment they'll ask you to show your ID whenever you want to pay with or use crypto for the same excuse: Crime prevention.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Is it really useful in the case of cybercrimes or is it not at all, and just a pretext to try and take a grip over the control handle? Will it do more criminal prevention than it will harm the average Joe's privacy?

Of course not, but that's never stopped governments before. Facial recognition scanners on the streets, despite the fact they don't work and don't reduce crime. Attempting to force backdoors in to services like WhatsApp, ignoring of course the hundreds of other methods criminals will use to communicate instead. Attempting to ban encryption, despite the fact that doing so is impossible. Wide-scale mass surveillance, despite it not reducing crime. It's the same nonsense "Won't you think of the children!" argument, just being applied to bitcoin. It's an excuse to increase their control over the population, not to reduce crime.

We'll probably reach the boiling point the moment they'll ask you to show your ID whenever you want to pay with or use crypto for the same excuse.

Some services already do that. BitPay for example, one of the worst anti-bitcoin/anti-privacy services, demand KYC from customers, not just merchants, over a certain spending limit. Thankfully, you will always be able to trade bitcoin peer-to-peer. The more and more difficult centralized services like these make it to pay or trade with bitcoin, the faster they accelerate their own downfall.

[bitbunnny]

And what did we expect? To have broader and broader use of Bitcoin and services and that everything will remain the same? Including the illegal use of Bitcoin?
Of course not, Bitcoin should also fit into legal framework and that means that we need to sacrifice a part of of our privacy and anonimity and there is no sense in fighting it.

[TGD]

Bitcoin mixer is the dead end for all the investigation in case this blockchain criminal database will be implement. There is no way to track a transaction that process by mixer. This article show us that Bitcoin is traceable and not anonymous at all.

Of course not, Bitcoin should also fit into legal framework and that means that we need to sacrifice a part of of our privacy and anonimity and there is no sense in fighting it.

The only reason I used Bitcoin because it was anonymous and decentralized. If ever this feature will be compromised then it's not really the use case of bitcoin. We should not compromise our privacy in exchange for finding this criminal. Exchange must tighten there security because the problem starts there or maybe they cooperate with them.