Can't access my money because of the derivation path

[Folio]

Yes indeed, it doesn't make any sense. It should show period.
The only possible explanation that I can suppose is that the coibase wallet shows you the same addresses because you tried it with an empty wallet, whereas his was full. And here coinbase wallet says that they change the addresses after transactions so that you never use the same address twice https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/why-did-my-wallet-address-change

So maybe coinbase wallet changed his address given that it was already used.

Anyways he said that he's giving me the seed in a week if coinbase doesn't fix this.


With his public key I can see these addresses and his transactions, but not the one he wants.
It's ridiculous, why would the derivation path change? I understand the address but the derivation path too?

[Folio]

He has given me 2 different Zpub public keys, from electrum.

How can he give me a Xpub and a Ypub, so that I can scan them also on that website?

[o_e_l_e_o]

And here coinbase wallet says that they change the addresses after transactions so that you never use the same address twice https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/why-did-my-wallet-address-change

That help page is talking about Coinbase exchange accounts, and not about the Coinbase Wallet app, which are two different things.

With his public key I can see these addresses and his transactions, but not the one he wants.

Try changing that derivation path to m/0, m/2, m/3, etc., and seeing if anything shows up. Note that if the derivation path does follow BIP84 as it seems to from HCP's screenshots above, then you won't be able to find the address with only the master public key due to the hardened derivation.

How can he give me a Xpub and a Ypub, so that I can scan them also on that website?

xpubs and ypubs will not generate "bc1" addresses by default without some tinkering, and I would suspect it is highly unlikely that Coinbase will have done something non-standard like this. If you really want to look at them too, then your friend will need to import his seed in to Electrum, and select either "legacy (p2pkh)" for the xpub or "p2sh-segwit (p2wpkh-p2sh)" for the ypub on the wallet creation screen.

[HCP]

I really don't understand why he has TWO zpubs... he should only have one...

It's ridiculous, why would the derivation path change? I understand the address but the derivation path too?

I doubt that it has changed... what you are seeing is the "change" addresses from his wallet...

When you send Bitcoin, you often end up with change (read here to understand why)... HD wallets adhering to the BIP44 spec generate a separate group of addresses for this purpose... as per the derivation path format:

Code:

m / purpose' / coin_type' / account' / [b]change[/b] / address_index

Because of the way Electrum works, when you put the seed in, it actually derives the master private and public keys at the account level... and stores those in the wallet file. So it's basically "hiding" the m/84'/0'/0' part from you... and you need to use the m/0/x and m/1/y paths to find the receive and change addresses, respectively.

That fact that you can see "used" addresses on the m/1/0 path, indicates that the address you have found is a "change" address... you should be able to see other active addresses on the same public key using m/0/0


Having said that... something seems REALLY off here:


That is technically a "change" address, but the sending address in the transaction that it received coins from is an old Legacy address... so... either:

1. The Coinbase Wallet App is setup to ALWAYS use SegWit change addresses (regardless of sending address type)
or
2. The Coinbase Wallet App gave out a "change" address as a receive address


Can you ask your friend if he recognises either of the "1" addresses in this transaction: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/ac14d45dfa3bfdc5ab026643ab214d2821fe245b401ace85fe01d29583285735

15FfborJuBXicY93ymX9QPf9nrQ6mHeH3k
and
1JuYbj6L8UCtBF5cJHFPaNb3kJEJcPXN8h

Are either of these addresses his? or does he remember receiving from 15FfborJuBXicY93ymX9QPf9nrQ6mHeH3k or sending to 1JuYbj6L8UCtBF5cJHFPaNb3kJEJcPXN8h?

[Folio]

And here coinbase wallet says that they change the addresses after transactions so that you never use the same address twice https://help.coinbase.com/en/coinbase/privacy-and-security/data-privacy/why-did-my-wallet-address-change

That help page is talking about Coinbase exchange accounts, and not about the Coinbase Wallet app, which are two different things.

With his public key I can see these addresses and his transactions, but not the one he wants.

Try changing that derivation path to m/0, m/2, m/3, etc., and seeing if anything shows up. Note that if the derivation path does follow BIP84 as it seems to from HCP's screenshots above, then you won't be able to find the address with only the master public key due to the hardened derivation.

How can he give me a Xpub and a Ypub, so that I can scan them also on that website?

xpubs and ypubs will not generate "bc1" addresses by default without some tinkering, and I would suspect it is highly unlikely that Coinbase will have done something non-standard like this. If you really want to look at them too, then your friend will need to import his seed in to Electrum, and select either "legacy (p2pkh)" for the xpub or "p2sh-segwit (p2wpkh-p2sh)" for the ypub on the wallet creation screen.

Mmh, interesting. I will make him open a new wallet with electrum using the legacy or p2sh-segwit option then. Although I doubt that's going to do anything given that the address with the money starts with bc1 so it should be segwit.

I really don't understand why he has TWO zpubs... he should only have one...

It's ridiculous, why would the derivation path change? I understand the address but the derivation path too?

I doubt that it has changed... what you are seeing is the "change" addresses from his wallet...

When you send Bitcoin, you often end up with change (read here to understand why)... HD wallets adhering to the BIP44 spec generate a separate group of addresses for this purpose... as per the derivation path format:

Code:

m / purpose' / coin_type' / account' / [b]change[/b] / address_index

Because of the way Electrum works, when you put the seed in, it actually derives the master private and public keys at the account level... and stores those in the wallet file. So it's basically "hiding" the m/84'/0'/0' part from you... and you need to use the m/0/x and m/1/y paths to find the receive and change addresses, respectively.

That fact that you can see "used" addresses on the m/1/0 path, indicates that the address you have found is a "change" address... you should be able to see other active addresses on the same public key using m/0/0


Having said that... something seems REALLY off here:


That is technically a "change" address, but the sending address in the transaction that it received coins from is an old Legacy address... so... either:

1. The Coinbase Wallet App is setup to ALWAYS use SegWit change addresses (regardless of sending address type)
or
2. The Coinbase Wallet App gave out a "change" address as a receive address


Can you ask your friend if he recognises either of the "1" addresses in this transaction: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/ac14d45dfa3bfdc5ab026643ab214d2821fe245b401ace85fe01d29583285735

15FfborJuBXicY93ymX9QPf9nrQ6mHeH3k
and
1JuYbj6L8UCtBF5cJHFPaNb3kJEJcPXN8h

Are either of these addresses his? or does he remember receiving from 15FfborJuBXicY93ymX9QPf9nrQ6mHeH3k or sending to 1JuYbj6L8UCtBF5cJHFPaNb3kJEJcPXN8h?

He gave me 2 different zpub public keys because I made him open different wallets on electrum trying to manually change the derivation path with some that I found online.
Now I'll ask him to open a legacy wallet too, maybe that's the issue, no idea.
I'll ask him your question regarding those 2 addresses as well. Thanks

[Folio]

What if he does this:

1. creates a watching-only wallet with the interested address
2. selects the address with the money and sets up a payment transaction toward an address that he controls
3. saves the transaction to a .psbt file
4. open a new wallet with his seed
5. load the transaction from the file, sign it and broadcast it


Would it work? Even if the address does not show in the wallet, that's the private key so it should still sign the transaction without any issue, right?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Would it work?

No. The wallet still needs to know which derivation path to look for the private key in question. It will only be able to sign the transaction if you have found the correct derivation path and told the wallet what it is. If you can't find the path, then the wallet won't be able to either.

Has he had any response from Coinbase yet?

[Folio]

Would it work?

No. The wallet still needs to know which derivation path to look for the private key in question. It will only be able to sign the transaction if you have found the correct derivation path and told the wallet what it is. If you can't find the path, then the wallet won't be able to either.

Has he had any response from Coinbase yet?

No, nothing.
Isn't it absurd that you can't find the derivation path having the address? No one tells you to write down your derivation path when you open a wallet.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I'm still not convinced this is a derivation path issue. As HCP showed on the previous page, a seed phrase generated by the Coinbase Wallet App imports no problem in to Electrum and Ian Coleman, and both show the correct addresses at the default derivation path. He also shouldn't have two zpubs - there is only one master private key and one master public key per seed phrase.

This sounds more like either a seed phrase or a passphrase issue to me than a derivation path issue.

[Folio]

I'm still not convinced this is a derivation path issue. As HCP showed on the previous page, a seed phrase generated by the Coinbase Wallet App imports no problem in to Electrum and Ian Coleman, and both show the correct addresses at the default derivation path. He also shouldn't have two zpubs - there is only one master private key and one master public key per seed phrase.

This sounds more like either a seed phrase or a passphrase issue to me than a derivation path issue.

Yes it's weird that coinbase didn't show that address once he logged back in.

The 2 different public keys are explained (I think) by the fact that he manually modified the derivation path on electrum.

[HCP]

I have a suspicion that o_e_l_e_o is correct... It's starting to look a lot like the classic "have (valid) seed for a different wallet" scenario

I've seen a few instances on these forums of users that have been experimenting/testing wallet applications and have setup multiple wallets (accidentally or deliberately). Then they end up with a situation where they think they have the correct seed mnemonic written down, but are in fact using a wallet derived from a completely different seed.

Inevitably, "Murphy's Law" strikes and they lose access to the wallet (computer failure, lost password etc)... then they go to restore... only to discover the seed they have derives a completely different wallet and they're like "W.T.F??!?"

With his public key I can see these addresses and his transactions, but not the one he wants.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/11/15/zfO4I.png

What I find a bit confusing tho, is that apparently you found some transactions/coins... but not others??!?

As I mentioned earlier, it's possible that the wallet was doing strange stuff and had both Legacy/SegWit addresses... and so was actually using multiple derivation paths for the one wallet... or it was generating SegWit address off "Legacy" derivation paths or vice versa...

So, the address that you couldn't find... it it SegWit or Legacy?

[nc50lc]

I have a suspicion that o_e_l_e_o is correct... It's starting to look a lot like the classic "have (valid) seed for a different wallet" scenario

But you know that a different seed phrase will generate a different "@username", if it's new to their server, it will ask you to create a new user.
And Folio claimed in the OP that his friend generated the same wallet username when he restored from the backup seed phrase.

For the BIP39 passphrase, I don't think Coinbase wallet app has an option to enable it;
the PIN however is just an app security feature and I tried to load the same seed phrase with different PIN and both generated the same addresses.

If Folio's friend is telling the truth, this is an issue with Coinbase wallet app itself (I'll take it with a pinch of salt).

[HCP]

But you know that a different seed phrase will generate a different "@username", if it's new to their server, it will ask you to create a new user.
And Folio claimed in the OP that his friend generated the same wallet username when he restored from the backup seed phrase.

True. I had forgotten about that part of it... it's been a busy couple of weeks with lots of very early starts

So, I'm wondering if it just a Legacy/SegWit thing then?

[Folio]

Is there a way to verify if the seed he's using is in charge of that address? If that is so, then it must be a derivation path issue, right?
Maybe signing a message?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Is there a way to verify if the seed he's using is in charge of that address? If that is so, then it must be a derivation path issue, right?

There's no wallet which will automatically do this. It is the same situation as your suggestion above regarding creating an unsigned transaction. If you haven't found the correct derivation path, then the wallet won't be able to either.

Scanning or searching for addresses with zpubs is unlikely to be successful either since if the derivation path uses hardened derivation at any point, as all BIP 44/49/84 paths do, you cannot derive these levels using only the zpub.

You could potentially write some code which would scan thousands of derivation paths, but you would need your friend's seed phrase or zprv (master private key).

Edit: Actually, a bit of searching seems that this exact feature is currently in development for Electrum - type in your seed, and it scans for a variety of commonly used derivation paths and script types to see if have been used. Perhaps this could help your friend - https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/pull/6219

[bob123]

Is there a way to verify if the seed he's using is in charge of that address? If that is so, then it must be a derivation path issue, right?
Maybe signing a message?

Unfortunately, no.

The only way would be to bruteforce it yourself.
This would mean you'd need a short script to try each derivation path until you are successful. You should find someone to code it for your for ~10$.
If you decide to do so, make sure to check the code tho.

[Folio]

I now have the seed and I have entered the wallet.
When I enter the wallet though, the addresses to receive are in the form of 15..., 14... whereas the address that contains the money is bc1.

With that seed, I tried to access the wallet with electrum. I click "detect existing account" and it finds me a bip44 legacy wallet (but the address I need is bc1 so not legacy), I open it anyway and I do see the old transactions.

I am able to retrieve another wallet (always with the same seed), this time with bc1 addresses, I open it and I see some transactions, so this wallet was used too. Unfortunately though the address I am looking for is not there.

What else can I do?

He certainly screwed it up by using a legacy wallet and giving out a segwit address.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I am able to retrieve another wallet (always with the same seed), this time with bc1 addresses, I open it and I see some transactions, so this wallet was used too.

It's possible then there are further segwit (bc1) accounts which were generated using this seed phrase. Electrum should have detected them, but you can try doing it manually just to be sure. Recover your seed phrase on Electrum, and on the Script Type page, select "native segwit (p2wpkh)" but change the derivation path from m/84'/0'/0' to m/84'/0'/1'. You could also try changing to 2', 3', 4', etc. just to be sure.

If that still shows up blank, then the options are either a very nonstandard derivation path, an additional passphrase which has been forgotten about, or the wrong seed phrase entirely.

[BASE16]

m/84'/0'/0' == bip84 == bc1 == zpub

If you have the keys you do not need any coinbase wallet at all.
You can import them into any application that is able to handle the protocol and your friends funds will be spendable immediately.

Hey by the way what do you mean with bip84? When he made the wallet and writes the seed in electrum (12 words), you can't click next. So I told him to press the option button and select bip39 so that he could click next (and also because as far as I know the seed phrase is taken from the bip39 list).
Could this bip84/bip39 be the issue???

Probably you are currently looking at the external and change addresses, while you are searching for the address that belongs not to external or change, but to the root, or master key.
This is the hard key from 256 bits HMAC512 and all child addresses will be generated from the other 256bits HMAC512 chain code.

The chance that you found a used address that belonged to someone else is neglectable, so this means that you are looking into the right direction you most likely only need to look up one more level.



You can also use the public key to generate a variety of non standard addresses but since this seems to be a online wallet issue the chances on non standard protocol implementations are very slim. 

I have a slight feeling that your friend has a seed from a previous or older wallet.
It can help to ask him how many wallets he made and if he still has the seeds to all of them.

For now i would advise you to use the keypair, or public key to generate an extended address list including roots.

[Folio]

I am using the website https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ on an offline computer, telling it to scan for thousands of addresses but the one I want is not listed there.
I have selected bip84 and it doesn't show up. Then I tried to put "1" in the "account" box but it's not there either.