Is it OK to use Bitcointalk to organize criminal enterprises?

[woetohice]

There's a thread in the alt coin section in which members are organizing an extortion ring.  They will demand payment from alt coin creators, and if they don't pay they will launch DDOS attacks and attempt to fork the coin.

Regardless of your feelings about alt coins, this is extortion and it is illegal.

I've reported this thread, and others said they have as well, but it remains open.

Is Bitcointalk OK with the forum being used to organize a criminal enterprise?

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[woetohice]

Sure.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=522235.0

[QuestionAuthority]

There's a thread in the alt coin section in which members are organizing an extortion ring.  They will demand payment from alt coin creators, and if they don't pay they will launch DDOS attacks and attempt to fork the coin.

Regardless of your feelings about alt coins, this is extortion and it is illegal.

I've reported this thread, and others said they have as well, but it remains open.

Is Bitcointalk OK with the forum being used to organize a criminal enterprise?

No one is demanding payment but there is a group forming. I am in the process of building an anonymous pool for the group that will have the power 51% most scrypt alt coins.


~BCX~

You don't need an anonymous pool or any payment. LukeJr loves to kill altcoins. He'll do it for free. He's done it before.

[Luke-Jr]

You don't need an anonymous pool or any payment. LukeJr loves to kill altcoins. He'll do it for free. He's done it before.

No need to slander me.
I killed one scamcoin before, simply by mining it.
Was pretty funny until the scammers got up in arms.

But I have no problem with legit altcoins.
It doesn't sound like these guys do either (but I only read the first post).
I don't see any extortion either, sounds like they're just a volunteer community service team.

[woetohice]

We're actually going to great lengths to white list any coins that have innovation, serve a purpose or has a real developer team and services.

AND/OR pay the extortion fee:

To be fair, we could probably have this committee determine how much payment each altcoin must make to the Operation funds.

If a coin seems to have some legitimate innovation, which we decided is good for the crypto community, perhaps we waive the fee.

If a coin is borderline, we charge some fee like 10 BTC.  

If the coin seems like a scam, then we charge double, like 20 BTC.

If any coin does not comply with the application/audit and payment process, they are instantly targeted and destroyed via BCX's methods.  

We would need to put together a team of DDOS, multi pool operators, and volunteer hackers to enforce the mandate.

It'll be no small feat, and will require some organization, obviously.

Obviously you are not going to call it an extortion fee, so you call it a "listing fee" or whatever.  It's still extortion.  People have to pay up or suffer the consequences.

This has nothing to do with cleaning up alt coins.  The guy who started the thread is a producer of "scam coins" himself.  Other members are pool operates, and part of the plan is to launch DDOS attacks on their competitors.  They are "cleaning things up" in exactly the same way the mafia "cleans up" neighborhoods.

[woetohice]

For those who did not see the extortion in the thread.

From Miriam Webster Dictionary:

Extortion:  "Unlawful exaction of money or property through intimidation or undue exercise of authority. "

If any coin does not comply with the application/audit and payment process, they are instantly targeted and destroyed via BCX's methods.

[QuestionAuthority]

You don't need an anonymous pool or any payment. LukeJr loves to kill altcoins. He'll do it for free. He's done it before.

No need to slander me.
I killed one scamcoin before, simply by mining it.
Was pretty funny until the scammers got up in arms.

But I have no problem with legit altcoins.
It doesn't sound like these guys do either (but I only read the first post).
I don't see any extortion either, sounds like they're just a volunteer community service team.

I've been here a long time sweetheart. Do you really want me to list the fucked up shit you've done? The lead dev (everyone's beloved Gavin) himself has called you poisonous.

I don't want YOU as a judge and jury of what's right or wrong and I certainly don't want you to take unilateral action to destroy anything. Thanks

[Raize]

The lead dev (everyone's beloved Gavin) himself has called you poisonous.

Gavin also once changed his signature to try to get Deepbit to "vote" on the blockchain for BIP 16, risking a network fork. Developers shouldn't beseech miners as it sidesteps the community itself and can potentially set folks at odds with each other financially. There are no innocents here.

Tycho made his position clear as to why this was a bad idea. If he switched before others did, it would reflect poorly on his pool's consensus ability, putting him at odds with other miners and devs.

I'm not defending Luke, but the BIP16/BIP17 stuff should never have hit the community or become something for miners to "vote" on, IMHO.

Killing premined altcoins sounds like a great idea, IMHO.

[woetohice]

Killing premined altcoins sounds like a great idea, IMHO.

Do you also agree with extorting money from them?  Under the plan outlined, premined coins are OK as long as they pay the 20 BTC protection fee.  If they do not pay, "they are instantly targeted and destroyed via BCX's methods."

[QuestionAuthority]

The lead dev (everyone's beloved Gavin) himself has called you poisonous.

Gavin also once changed his signature to try to get Deepbit to "vote" on the blockchain for BIP 16, risking a network fork. Developers shouldn't beseech miners as it sidesteps the community itself and can potentially set folks at odds with each other financially. There are no innocents here.

Tycho made his position clear as to why this was a bad idea. If he switched before others did, it would reflect poorly on his pool's consensus ability, putting him at odds with other miners and devs.

I'm not defending Luke, but the BIP16/BIP17 stuff should never have hit the community or become something for miners to "vote" on, IMHO.

Killing premined altcoins sounds like a great idea, IMHO.

I know, I remember the whole BIP16/17 fiasco. I don't agree that turning to the community for a decision is wrong. It's not like I think killing premined altcoins is bad. I just don't want LukeJr, without telling his miners or getting their support, to turn his mining power away from what it is supposed to be doing to whatever he wants to do with it. He can put prayers in the blockchain all day long for all I care. I just want him to get consent from his miners before he does shit like that and stop wielding his mining power like a sword. He doesn't have the right to do it. I would think it would be a red flag for him that his supporter is Realsolid Coinhunter BitcoinEXpress.

[Luke-Jr]

I know, I remember the whole BIP16/17 fiasco. I don't agree that turning to the community for a decision is wrong. It's not like I think killing premined altcoins is bad. I just don't want LukeJr, without telling his miners or getting their support, to turn his mining power away from what it is supposed to be doing to whatever he wants to do with it. He can put prayers in the blockchain all day long for all I care. I just want him to get consent from his miners before he does shit like that and stop wielding his mining power like a sword. He doesn't have the right to do it. I would think it would be a red flag for him that his supporter is Realsolid Coinhunter BitcoinEXpress.

I shutdown CoiledCoin by myself. Eligius miners were not involved.

[Zeglamancer]

How exactly is this a criminal enterprise? The community needs this. In fact, I think BitcoinTalk administrators should be pressured to moderate the alt-coin announcement forums more severely

[QuestionAuthority]

I know, I remember the whole BIP16/17 fiasco. I don't agree that turning to the community for a decision is wrong. It's not like I think killing premined altcoins is bad. I just don't want LukeJr, without telling his miners or getting their support, to turn his mining power away from what it is supposed to be doing to whatever he wants to do with it. He can put prayers in the blockchain all day long for all I care. I just want him to get consent from his miners before he does shit like that and stop wielding his mining power like a sword. He doesn't have the right to do it. I would think it would be a red flag for him that his supporter is Realsolid Coinhunter BitcoinEXpress.

I shutdown CoiledCoin by myself. Eligius miners were not involved.

I don't believe you. I notice you selectively didn't respond to Eligius miners spamming the blockchain with Christian prayers.

[Luke-Jr]

I don't believe you.

That's your problem, not mine.

[QuestionAuthority]

How exactly is this a criminal enterprise? The community needs this. In fact, I think BitcoinTalk administrators should be pressured to moderate the alt-coin announcement forums more severely

Get serious, it doesn't fit into our profit model. None of us are holding any altcoins, we don't profit when altcoins succeed and this is a Bitcoin forum. I don't even understand why altcoins want to be here anyway. There are some perfectly reasonable altcoin forums out there and they are setting themselves up to be attacked by Bitcoin lunatics.

[QuestionAuthority]

I don't believe you.

That's your problem, not mine.

No, it's not my problem it Bitcoins problem. You have proven yourself to be an untrustworthy negative force in Bitcoin development. You also selectively ignored the spam question again.

[woetohice]

How exactly is this a criminal enterprise? The community needs this. In fact, I think BitcoinTalk administrators should be pressured to moderate the alt-coin announcement forums more severely

I thought I spelled this out VERY clearly, but lets try again.

Extortion is a crime.

Extortion is intimidating people into paying you money, and if they don't bad things will happen to them.

These thugs are requiring alt coin providers to pay them a fee (20 BTC), and if they don't pay, they destroy they coin and launch a DDOS attack against pools mining it.

Two of the organizers are themselves creators of shit coins.  The just want to reduce the competition so the price of their coins go up.

Other organizers are pool operators who are excited about getting idiotic sheep to launch DDOS attacks against their competitors.

But it has NOTHING to do with cleaning up alt coins.  If a coin dev pays, they won't touch that coin, no matter how shitty it is.

That is extortion.  No question about it. 

[flower1024]

For the record, I am not part of any extortion team. You cannot pay me enough to not kill your coin if I decide to. I'm not sure how these guys are going to use "BCX" method to kill anything as I have a rather large "private pool" along with a substantial amount of my own hash rate both Scrypt and ASIC SHA.

My part is in this operation is brute strength, what ever coins they decide to kill as long as it is not a primary alt is fine by me. I don't even need a reason.



~BCX~

what is your opinion on more innovative coins (eg nxt, pts or mcs; hopefully more in the future).
i like your reasoning

[greyhawk]

How exactly is this a criminal enterprise? The community needs this. In fact, I think BitcoinTalk administrators should be pressured to moderate the alt-coin announcement forums more severely

I thought I spelled this out VERY clearly, but lets try again.

Extortion is a crime.

Extortion is intimidating people into paying you money, and if they don't bad things will happen to them.

These thugs are requiring alt coin providers to pay them a fee (20 BTC), and if they don't pay, they destroy they coin and launch a DDOS attack against pools mining it.

Two of the organizers are themselves creators of shit coins.  The just want to reduce the competition so the price of their coins go up.

Other organizers are pool operators who are excited about getting idiotic sheep to launch DDOS attacks against their competitors.

But it has NOTHING to do with cleaning up alt coins.  If a coin dev pays, they won't touch that coin, no matter how shitty it is.

That is extortion.  No question about it. 

Sounds like free market action to me. I dont't understand your problem.

[woetohice]

Sounds like free market action to me. I don't understand your problem.

So if someone came up to you and said, give me $2,000 or I'll burn your house down while you're sleeping, that would be fine with you?  Just the free market at work, right?

In any case, it doesn't matter what you or the members of this criminal gang think. It's not a surprise that thugs think it's perfectly OK to strongarm people into giving you money.  But the law is clear.  This is extortion.