Fixed amount vs. infinite coins

[witcher_sense]

you cant just add and add digits unless it is legally introduced and so what if btc is dividable ?

I have never heard that solving mathematical problems require you to comply with legislation, thought you should only need to know how mathematical laws work. Look I can add any digits I want: 1 BTC = 0.00000000001 BTC * 100000000000 millisatoshis. It's a magic! Well, not really. Lightning Network already does that every day and, you know, system is not collapsed, bitcoin economy still works as intended.

[Botnake]

I'll go for fixed amount, the problem of bitcoin on why it's not stable is not because of the supply, but because we are still in the process of massive or real adoption where investors are still the one dictating the price movement, once there's a massive adoption, things will eventually change.

Imagine, 1 satoshi is equal to 1 usd, I guess the supply is more than enough to cater everyone who wants to use bitcoin as a payment system, but transactions should not go directly in the blockchain, a 3rd party project (payment processor) is important to make transactions faster and cheaper.  

[cryptoperkele]

What? You do know that you can just add more digits to the Bitcoin in the future to divide it to smaller amounts then satoshi. "Runnin out of coins" isn't a thing.

you cant just add and add digits unless it is legally introduced...

First of all, you can just add digits after decimal point, secondly i literally don't understand what you even mean by "legally"

...and so what if btc is dividable ? it will still run out in the long run but it can happen slower because of the increasing value  . there could be a coin with a low supply but im curious if all of its supply is already accumulated and what happen to them ?. infinite supply can decrease the value of the coin , why not add only a sufficient amount of supply so that theres still chance for increase .

This is just nonsense based on the idea that it somehow "runs out" because no one is selling it anymore. That doesn't even mean anything. Just because you have tiny amount in relative to "whole" bitcoin doesn't mean you can't use it.

[mezzaluna]

There would be a lot of difference between the both of them since some of the platforms that they might be working on is limited. If we talk about inflation, I guess that would be just a sad way on how can somebody else get money from you since inflation can happen anytime. Looking at fixed amounts of coins is a good way that you know where to buy those Alternate Coins and how to use them. Infinite coins on the other hand, we can say that it also has an unlimited opportunities on how to grow.

[thesmallgod]

I disagree with you in some areas. Firstly, there are many business areas that operate daily that you can buy with bitcoin. I will not start mentioning this because there are many threads this has been discussed. You can search for it yourself. I believe the area you specifically make reference to is the most important to you but with time maybe we shall see more food store accepting bitcoin although there are still some fast-food restaurant that accept it https://cointelegraph.com/news/retailers-around-the-world-that-accept-crypto-from-pizza-to-travel

[viparmenia]

Limitation of amount for a coin like bitcoin or any other altcoin as well low inflation makes it only worth to use as wealth storage.

Gold were also a payment unit till middle of last century, but now it is only wealth storage and speculation object on market.

Same is almost happen with BTCbitcoinBTC, moreover it is to volatile to be used as payment.

I don't think this is true. Low inflation or deflation are just theories people put forward for bitcoin. It is important that it always shows up on Bitcoin's price. If we say Halving, cutting the supply rate makes an asset that will increase its value is not correct. it also depends on human needs. I believe that bitcoin will never be put on our market, because every transaction is anonymous and therefore money laundering will be even easier. the government won't let this happen.

Bitcoin transactions are not anonymous, just it is a bit harder to identify, but with enough computing power all transactions could be followed backed.

[viparmenia]

Just one answer to many claiming bitcoin is used in real stores or online - could you upload a bill when you last time paid with bitcoin?

My point is - people are not ready will never be ready to use bitcoin for anything else than wealth storage because of it is to expensive and getting more and more expensive - it is psychological problem

[philipma1957]

BitcoinBTC maximalists "selling" it since 2015 as an alternative payments.

Last 3 years there were lot of adoptions of BTC Bitcoin mainly on trade markets.
But still no real daily market where the people use bitcoinBTC as a payment - just get out and try to buy a food for Bitcoin - almost impossible.

Limitation of amount for a coin like bitcoin or any other altcoin as well low inflation makes it only worth to use as wealth storage.

Gold were also a payment unit till middle of last century, but now it is only wealth storage and speculation object on market.

Same is almost happen with BTCbitcoinBTC, moreover it is to volatile to be used as payment.

Except Satoshi Nakamoto will defreeze his million BTCbitcoinBTC there is no chance for bitcoin to became real payment alternative to 100 of fiats and inbetween 3000 alternative coins, some with infinite supply.

Like it or not too many people have read and followed my signature.

BTC acts as a 10,000 treasury bill
LTC act like cash
Doge acts like small purchase cash

It is backed by a ton of asic gear and it works.

All other ideas won't be better than this. They would be different but not better.

My signature is looked at every day. Like it or not it is viable and it works.
I am of the opinion if people just followed that all scaling goes by-by as it is fixed and would be able to make  cashless world.  Or at least a world of lessor cash needs.

the resistance to my signature is it fucks banks and rich mother fuckers big time.

So rich people keep trying to scale btc into  workable single crypto system. Which won't work. Which is why they keep trying to do it.

One exception is Elon Musk as he has touted Doge more than once.

[cryptoperkele]

Just one answer to many claiming bitcoin is used in real stores or online - could you upload a bill when you last time paid with bitcoin?

My point is - people are not ready will never be ready to use bitcoin for anything else than wealth storage because of it is to expensive and getting more and more expensive - it is psychological problem

Why should anyone jump hoops and upload any bill for your amusement? So that people could track them and their purchaces? Technically most of the purchases are handled in fiat money anyway. With wirex you have to swap btc/xrp or what ever crypto to eur/usd first with your app and then use it with your card.

And bitbay converts it to the fiat for merchant (at least i think that's the process) but who cares, i bought a laptop with it without touching fiat. And people are constantly using it, why do you need proof exactly? Hell. I just changed btc to eur and ordered beer with my wirex and i am oblicated to give proof now to impress a random person in the internet who doesn't "believe" people are using bitcoin?

[enhu]

The number of cryptocurrencies listed on CMC and the supply they have must have been more than enough for the 8B people in the world though. There are tokens thats more than 100B and there are infinite supply like ETH. Not all of these tokens are going to be used widely though. Fixed amount however isn't a problem. In the case of BTC is that 1BTC has 8 decimals which we can send by a fraction.

[jostorres]

If there is a chance for any cryptocurrency to become adopted as a real payment method, we all know very well that only Bitcoin stands a chance of being adopted by so many people as a payment method, none of those alternative cryptocurrencies stands such a chance to be adopted. The way I see Bitcoin, it all depends on the users, it was created to give you freedom to use it anyhow you want.

There are those who wants to be making use of cryptocurrency for transaction and there are those who are using for other purposes. I don’t make use of bitcoin for making purchase, I just use it for transfer to people living in other countries, because it’s more easy than when you make use of banks. I also use it as a store of value.

[Twinkledoe]

The number of cryptocurrencies listed on CMC and the supply they have must have been more than enough for the 8B people in the world though. There are tokens thats more than 100B and there are infinite supply like ETH. Not all of these tokens are going to be used widely though. Fixed amount however isn't a problem. In the case of BTC is that 1BTC has 8 decimals which we can send by a fraction.

Also, for me it doesn't matter whether fixed amount or infinite supply. As long as there is real usage of the coin. But sadly, most of them are crap. So we always go back to btc, even with fixed supply, as you said, we can just work those 8 decimals and each decimal will have a value. Because in the future, even 1 sat maybe valuable in the market.

[freedomgo]

The number of cryptocurrencies listed on CMC and the supply they have must have been more than enough for the 8B people in the world though. There are tokens thats more than 100B and there are infinite supply like ETH. Not all of these tokens are going to be used widely though. Fixed amount however isn't a problem. In the case of BTC is that 1BTC has 8 decimals which we can send by a fraction.

Also, for me it doesn't matter whether fixed amount or infinite supply. As long as there is real usage of the coin.

Agree as only adoption will make bitcoin as a payment system more than an investment.

But sadly, most of them are crap. So we always go back to btc, even with fixed supply, as you said, we can just work those 8 decimals and each decimal will have a value. Because in the future, even 1 sat maybe valuable in the market.

Most of them what? I thought we are just talking about bitcoin here, that's stated in the OP, let's not talk about altcoins as that is really true, most of them are a bad projects and that's the reason why bitcoin is dominating in the market.

As for me, I believe in bitcoin, there's nothing to change or to add in the system by making a fork, that's why I'm not a fan of the BTC forks.

[beerlover]

I would say fixed amount, infinite coins do not make any sense at all. If you think that it would never be used for payments you are quite wrong, people do not even have as much as printed, most of it is either frozen like you said or they are lost or even some other people froze it or even saved aside like you guessed. This means that there is still a ton of bitcoin left but not as much as 18 million which was mined.

Even with that little amount people are still trading it, using it and all around send and receive, because bitcoin is not something like gold, it is something like fiat but digital and more trustworthy. Bitcoin is not a commodity, it is a high tech currency and currency is there to use and spend it. However gold was used as well until fiat was discovered, gold coins were means to transactions, so I can't really guarantee my opinion neither.

[teosanru]

You are talking shit about gold - it is used as wealth storage against inflation because there is limited amount of gold available.
Same is with bitcoin or any other limited supply coins - they will be used only for speculation or storage.
Bitcoin will never be used for payments so it could not be used for real economy.
Economy needs working fiat / assets / currency used for payment and you need to control it by emitting new coins or burning useless one.
As soon as there not enough bitcoins and last one would be mined, there will no possibility to make transactions using bitcoins.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Gold is not used by everyone because it is inconvenient. It is impossible to pay 2.99$ for beer using gold bar. 90% people that you will ask on the street what "inflation" is and how high inflation is now and why will not know the answer. Don't tell me that people love fiats because government and banksters can steal money from them. Its stupid. They are using it because it is an official way of payments, and they are too focused on earning and spending it that they don't have time to educate how money work and why they are doomed to work till death because of banksters greed.

A gold standard is a monetary system in which the standard economic unit of account is based on a fixed quantity of gold. The gold standard was widely used in the 19th and early part of the 20th century. Most nations abandoned the gold standard as the basis of their monetary systems at some point in the 20th century

Currency without inflation can work and was working for hundreds years.

We had gold standard before 1971 so you basically can't imagine how people leave 50 years ago? What happened after 1971?








source of all

Don't think that this is done to help the poor and needy

Sure, wages have gone up, but prices have gone up more.

The biggest inflation fault is that you are doomed to work till the end of your life. You can't be a smart 20 yo guy who earned 1 mln and retired. You have to work all the time because all your saving are secretly stolen by devaluating them. Your money are not yours. You have to spend them on useless shit (stimulating the economy in the wrong direction) and continue to work. You have to buy a flat that you dont need (China Has 65 Million Empty Apartments) just to put your money somewhere. You need to buy gold that you dont need. You need to buy someone debt and so on. To simply not be robbed by inflation.

Fixed amount vs. infinite coins

Fixed mount is dumb, because there will sooner or latter run out of coins.  Infinite supply is solution.  What matres is schedule that is set in stone before first block is mined and stay that way forever. So at any point we exactly know how many coins will be in existence at any time.

There is now way to run out of coins. I guess it is 10 times less possible than hitting hyperinflation. Maybe that's the reason why there is no hyperdeflation word ??

Even thought i can't completely disagree with your point it makes certain sense but yeah inflation is not a monster eating anything even if there would be zero inflation there still would be the similar return you would be getting in real terms.

coming to second part there might not be hyperdeflation but have you heard of  the deflationary spiral theory? A person spends money because it's remaining the same tomorrow or even getting cheaper. But in case of bitcoin or any other deflationary currency. Why would someone spend a deflationary currency? A currency which would become more dearer to me tomorrow. Moreover, at time when credit availability is the basic requirement of certainly every business how will economies work in case of a deflationary currency? We already know how easily credit is generated today.

[cengat]

Except Satoshi Nakamoto will defreeze his million BTCbitcoinBTC there is no chance for bitcoin to became real payment alternative to 100 of fiats and inbetween 3000 alternative coins, some with infinite supply.

I was thinking the same thing recently. Even tho bitcoin's limited supply makes each sat worth more - it immobilize it and won't let it be freely distributed and exchanged among people.
So the question is - is the mechanism of altcoin being harder to mine as we mine into the depth of it will be able to handle and cut the demand enough so it won't become worthless overtime?

[STT]

just get out and try to buy a food for Bitcoin - almost impossible.

Its used to buy pizzas every day, depends what you mean but I presume convenience.   I think the spread, the price regularity and the fees vs speed is a possible issue but I dont see any of those are linked to a limited total of BTC.    We are still increasing BTC in circulation, it hasn't stopped just the schedule slowed the amount issued every day.     The limited supply is to oppose the price instability of Dollar from continual production in excess of GDP growth.   If BTC growth exceeds the number of new coins produced then it's likely to bring value, encourage holding the currency  (base demand) over just spending and hopefully will ensure stability in worth.   Since BTC isnt backed by any government this seems quite necessary.
  Gold wasn't dropped because there isnt enough of it, they are producing increasingly large amounts of gold via advances in mining technology similar to oil production.   The issue there is the GDP and population growth for usage of both those products, if demand is greater then supply then price of gold rises which creates a lower retail price when paying in gold not a negative.   Recently oil dropped quite alot as we have a natural drop in GDP and so to BTC price can drop as its not always going to be surging in usage but require further refinement and development of the economy.   There no real negative to less block reward except for miners perhaps who must calculate costs more carefully to accommodate both the lows and highs in price.  BTC as an economy is a benefactor of a tighter value then otherwise would be true with excessive supply.

[BrewMaster]

it is funny how many topics like this are popping up these past couple of days that bitcoin price crushed the dreams of those who were waiting for its price to drop

and all of them are in the same theme, someone has put his head in the sand and is screaming it is night while the sun is up.
if you ever bothered to loo how many people are using bitcoin as payment and how merchants there are that have been accepting bitcoin as payment for years and how much money is transferred hand to hand using bitcoin then you would know that the adoption of bitcoin as a currency has been great even though it is still not mass adoption.

[stompix]

Bitcoin will never be used for payments so it could not be used for real economy.

Bitcoin has been used for payments, is used for payments and will be used for payments.
I have done it, others have done it and if you would really want to do it you could do that easily.

Economy needs working fiat / assets / currency used for payment and you need to control it by emitting new coins or burning useless one.

I understand your desire for inflationist coins, but I'm quite puzzled on the last part.
How can you say some coins in the chain ar "useless"?
This is not happening even in the inflationist fiat world, you don't burn old money that has been sitting in a bank for 20 years, the worst you can do is issue a demonetization of old coins and notes but nobody, no authority and no government will simply decide that one set of notes with a certain serial number will not be considered of any value from tomorrow.

As soon as there not enough bitcoins and last one would be mined, there will no possibility to make transactions using bitcoins.

Because....

I was thinking the same thing recently. Even tho bitcoin's limited supply makes each sat worth more - it immobilize it and won't let it be freely distributed and exchanged among people.

You can start by distributing your coins for free to people that have got none. When do you plan to start?

Like it or not too many people have read and followed my signature.

Although I don't really agree with your vision, Phil, the author is not claiming anything related to your, he has simply decided that BTC is flawed and it will not go anywhere.
Not like a highway, nor like a truck, nothing, it will simply be useless because it has no inflation and no central authority.

[Spaffin]

Bitcoin is a very good digital asset that is profitable for a long-term investment. Already today, those owners who bought Bitcoin at the end of August 2018 or at the beginning of 2019 have received very good profits. It seems to me that in some cases it makes no sense to keep bitcoin for too long, and at the same time not to use it for its intended purpose, since our life is very fleeting and unpredictable. Therefore, I personally try to use Bitcoin to buy the valuable things that I need, because I am not sure if I can live up to the time when Bitcoin possibly reaches the price of a million dollars.