Let's face it, Trump's handling of the pandemic killed private health

[alani123]

The U.S. has become the biggest incubator for the virus as a single country. Even countries with much larger populations have a hard time surpassing it. Oddly enough the only "competitors" are Brazil and India, who are also ruled by extreme right wing presidents friendly to trump. The difference in these countries is that they both had some form of socialized healthcare provided. The US right now is paying a lot of money to private and for profit hospitals to keep its population alive. Yet it's not doing all that well. The country already hit 200k deaths, so much for saving the economy when a 9/11 happens in deaths every few days. And it also turns out that a health system built for profit wouldn't do much to save your country even if shit hit the fan.

I didn't hear of one private hospital denying government cash to treat patients during this time. And what's funnier is that Trump even took a very socialist approach to providing healthcare for coronavirus patients. Basically cut a black check to whoever gets the virus and let the taxpayers worry about it int he next administration. I think that by this point even republican officials know that private healthcare makes little sense. The state pays more, people get the same or worse services, have a reduced real income as a direct effect due to how expensive and variable costs are and the system is basically never designed to handle crises. Meanwhile EU countries have the same wait times for hospitals, same wait times, better survival rates and costs are cut down very dramatically. The benefits of collective bargaining and unionizing shine in their full glory for health and medicine.

Now the biggest Grassroots campaign for the presidential race (Bernie Sanders) was talking about a fully socialized health care system. Bernie won't run again, and Biden sure as hell isn't for a fully socialized health system, but he also adopted many measures leaning more to the social side for health care. And with all the suffering Americans had to go through thanks to Trump's gross mishandling of the pandemic, it's no wonder that all nationwide polls give Biden a steady lead. If one thing changes in this election, it'll be how Americans perceive health. More people are now open to a more social system. By the next administration after this election, who knows, people might demand to make it fully socialized too.

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[PrimeNumber7]

What do you care about the US healthcare system, or US politics.....from "Greece"?

[tidbitcoiner]

I think just like any human Trump is looking for sanity. And what better way to keep sane than by ignorance?
Turn a blind eye, shit doesn't exist!

[BADecker]

The U.S. has become the biggest incubator for the virus as a single country. Even countries with much larger populations have a hard time surpassing it. Oddly enough the only "competitors" are Brazil and India, who are also ruled by extreme right wing presidents friendly to trump. The difference in these countries is that they both had some form of socialized healthcare provided. The US right now is paying a lot of money to private and for profit hospitals to keep its population alive. Yet it's not doing all that well. The country already hit 200k deaths, so much for saving the economy when a 9/11 happens in deaths every few days. And it also turns out that a health system built for profit wouldn't do much to save your country even if shit hit the fan.

What does "incubator for the virus" mean? The virus isn't an identified, microscopic organism of some kind. The virus as a "bug" hasn't been provably identified.

But if it is the "virus" of believing what doctors and the media say, then it is a virus of ignorance among the people. After all, even the medical says that as much as 33% of the people who are healed from diseases, are healed by placebo effect. This percent comes from simple, direct count. It doesn't come from in-depth, psychological study of placebo effect, which might indicate that 100% of healings come from placebo effect.

If even 33% is accurate, this means that the same 33% of people who get sick and die comes from medical placebo effect. For example, a diagnosis that says that a person has cancer and only has 6 months to live, is a placebo effect suggestion from the authority to die in 6 months.

When you put this all together with the numbers which have been skewed all over the place, everything you say about the pandemic is totally hearsay. Nobody knows what is true and real and what is not. It's all a trick to keep people like you ignorant.

I didn't hear of one private hospital denying government cash to treat patients during this time. And what's funnier is that Trump even took a very socialist approach to providing healthcare for coronavirus patients. Basically cut a black check to whoever gets the virus and let the taxpayers worry about it int he next administration. I think that by this point even republican officials know that private healthcare makes little sense. The state pays more, people get the same or worse services, have a reduced real income as a direct effect due to how expensive and variable costs are and the system is basically never designed to handle crises. Meanwhile EU countries have the same wait times for hospitals, same wait times, better survival rates and costs are cut down very dramatically. The benefits of collective bargaining and unionizing shine in their full glory for health and medicine.

If a person wants to jump into a cage with a lion, that's his right. There are loads of healthy people in the USA, who would never step into a hospital even for a broken arm. The people have been deceived into thinking that they should go to a hospital or doctor for every little ache or pain. If the people don't want to wake up, in a free country like the USA, nobody has the right to force them to wake up. Hospitals are there to make money. People are free to remain healthy without the hospitals... or to remain ignorant about the medical, if they want. There is plenty of info flying around these days about medical fails. People can wake up, or not, if they want.

Now the biggest Grassroots campaign for the presidential race (Bernie Sanders) was talking about a fully socialized health care system. Bernie won't run again, and Biden sure as hell isn't for a fully socialized health system, but he also adopted many measures leaning more to the social side for health care. And with all the suffering Americans had to go through thanks to Trump's gross mishandling of the pandemic, it's no wonder that all nationwide polls give Biden a steady lead. If one thing changes in this election, it'll be how Americans perceive health. More people are now open to a more social system. By the next administration after this election, who knows, people might demand to make it fully socialized too.

Trump is the president of a corporation called the United States. This US is the leader of fictitious entities called persons. If people want to identify with their person that the government owns, that's up to them. They don't have to if they don't want.

Trump is the better of the presidents around. Bernie and others would be just as bad or worse.

The President isn't a king. If idiots want to worship him as a king, that's up to them. Things in India are similar to what they are in the USA governmentally. The difference is that the people of India never understood about the freedoms that the British were trying to give them. Rather, they wanted and still want to go back into traditional slavery.

Brazil has a different way of doing it. Unlike the USA, they are slaves to their government. But the Brazilian government is smart enough to offer enough freedom to keep the people from revolting. If the people revolted, the top dogs in the Brazilian government would lose, economically. And how would that benefit anybody?

If you are really a Greek person as PrimeNumber7 suggests, you probably don't understand about the basic freedoms in the USA. It's a combination of governmental rules and laws like Greece, but it is also the 12-person jury that can nullify any governmental laws locally, for the case at hand.

What this means is that the President doesn't really have any control. If he pushes his control too far in a direction that the people don't like, the people can use the courts and the jury to stop him. He knows this. So he has to play the politics game to look like he is on the side of the people, even if he isn't in his heart. Bernie is out there for Communistic control. It won't really work for him in the USA, even if he is somehow elected.

[squatz1]

What do you care about the US healthcare system, or US politics.....from "Greece"?

Not a fair reason to shoot down concerns. Just like Americans talk about other countries policies, I think it's TOTALLY fair for other people to comment on it.

If you were to sit here and say "well you're wrong and don't understand this as much as an American because x, y, z and you've never lived here" that's different. But just dismissing without showing any evidence isn't fair.

But to the point. This isn't something that could've been solved fully just by having a socialized healthcare system. Period. We had cultural problems with accepting the fact that a highly infectious disease was spreading. People here don't like listening to the government, so they weren't a fan of following guidelines. Further, we have HUGE cities in the US where it would make sense to spread so quickly.

While we have tons of deaths though, per capita we're NOT at the top. We just have a lot of people living in this county (360 or so m) compared to Europe. Infections we are not doing good in at the moment, but things are starting to slow.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-confirmed-cases-of-covid-19-per-million-people

[Jet Cash]

Why do they call it "health care", when they don't care about your health. The best thing they could do is to ban all vaccines, and most of the pharmaceuticals, and do some public research into the causes of illness. Think how much money that would save. The ancient Chinese had the right idea - doctors were paid for the healthy people on their books, and if one became ill, then they lost the money for him. Modern doctors are paid to make people ill, and thus increase their work load.

[alani123]

The ancient Chinese had the right idea - doctors were paid for the healthy people on their books, and if one became ill, then they lost the money for him. Modern doctors are paid to make people ill, and thus increase their work load.

Surprisingly, that's close to a public system. Everyone pays the same amount every month, regardless of health status, and in the end the economy of scale takes care of many things. Increased bargaining rights put pharmaceutical corporations in their place. They'd rather give a good price than lose a market of millions. Countries can use the patent policies in their own benefit too. Even the libertarian party has this position acknowledging collective bargaining.

[TwitchySeal]

What do you care about the US healthcare system, or US politics.....from "Greece"?

Not all Americans act like this.  I promise.

[squatz1]

Why do they call it "health care", when they don't care about your health. The best thing they could do is to ban all vaccines, and most of the pharmaceuticals, and do some public research into the causes of illness. Think how much money that would save. The ancient Chinese had the right idea - doctors were paid for the healthy people on their books, and if one became ill, then they lost the money for him. Modern doctors are paid to make people ill, and thus increase their work load.

Jet Cash.... What in the flying fuck are you trying to prove here?

Like I truly don't know what you think is going on. There is no massive conspiracy that everyone is apart of. Do we have a billing problem in the US? Yes. But do we also have some of the best doctors and medicines in the world here in the US? Yes.

Fucking hell not everything is a conspiracy for profit. Vaccines are good, medication is good, not everything is going inside of you so the government can track you or a medical provider can make more money. Is money apart of the reason for making it? Yes. But people buy medicines BECAUSE they work.

[suchmoon]

But to the point. This isn't something that could've been solved fully just by having a socialized healthcare system. Period. We had cultural problems with accepting the fact that a highly infectious disease was spreading. People here don't like listening to the government, so they weren't a fan of following guidelines. Further, we have HUGE cities in the US where it would make sense to spread so quickly.

A proper healthcare system would go a long way towards reducing some of the risks. For one, having healthcare tied to employment is utterly ridiculous. Millions of people losing their jobs also means losing health insurance (don't get me started on COBRA) and those "lucky" to have one of those remaining essential jobs are under ludicrous limits of how many sick days they can take. So all that talk about quarantining for 14 days and whatnot... useless for a lot of people since they simply can't afford it.

It's been proven by pretty much every civilized country in the world that it's far more efficient to have a comprehensive system for everyone but we're going to spend trillions and sacrifice thousands of lives to prove them right. Muh free market.

[squatz1]

But to the point. This isn't something that could've been solved fully just by having a socialized healthcare system. Period. We had cultural problems with accepting the fact that a highly infectious disease was spreading. People here don't like listening to the government, so they weren't a fan of following guidelines. Further, we have HUGE cities in the US where it would make sense to spread so quickly.

A proper healthcare system would go a long way towards reducing some of the risks. For one, having healthcare tied to employment is utterly ridiculous. Millions of people losing their jobs also means losing health insurance (don't get me started on COBRA) and those "lucky" to have one of those remaining essential jobs are under ludicrous limits of how many sick days they can take. So all that talk about quarantining for 14 days and whatnot... useless for a lot of people since they simply can't afford it.

It's been proven by pretty much every civilized country in the world that it's far more efficient to have a comprehensive system for everyone but we're going to spend trillions and sacrifice thousands of lives to prove them right. Muh free market.

I agree with the fact that reducing the risks would've happened. Though what I don't agree with is saying 'Well if we had socialized medicine in the US, Covid would've been x times less bad' Covid was bad in places with and places without socialized medicine. This isn't really something that we experience that often.

But you're right on the whole employment and medical insurance being tied is a VERY BAD DUO. Economic downturns are usually just that, isolated economic downturns. We don't typically have a HEALTH CRISIS which causes an economic downturn which then causes people to lose their jobs, which are their only safety nets to making sure they (and their families) are healthy.

What's your proposed plan SuchMoon? Single Payer? Medicare for All? Government Option? etc?

[suchmoon]

What's your proposed plan SuchMoon? Single Payer? Medicare for All? Government Option? etc?

Honestly I have no idea what Medicare for all actually is, because there have been too many different ideas under that name.

Aside from that, any option that relies on people purchasing insurance (I guess that's what government option would be) is doomed. It needs to be a tax, it needs to replace all that insurance garbage that wastes 20-30% of our healthcare spending on beaurocracy, and it needs to cover absolutely everyone with no exceptions. Having small copays is ok if it can prevent wasteful use of healthcare resources but beyond that money should not enter healthcare decisions.

And of course whatever entity would be managing this, it should be able to negotiate pricing with private providers and vendors unlike the current restrictions on Medicare/Medicaid where the government is paying some average market price or some shit like that... totally backwards, an incentive for drug companies etc to jack up their "market" prices.

[alani123]

What's your proposed plan SuchMoon? Single Payer? Medicare for All? Government Option? etc?

Honestly I have no idea what Medicare for all actually is, because there have been too many different ideas under that name.

Aside from that, any option that relies on people purchasing insurance (I guess that's what government option would be) is doomed. It needs to be a tax, it needs to replace all that insurance garbage that wastes 20-30% of our healthcare spending on beaurocracy, and it needs to cover absolutely everyone with no exceptions. Having small copays is ok if it can prevent wasteful use of healthcare resources but beyond that money should not enter healthcare decisions.

And of course whatever entity would be managing this, it should be able to negotiate pricing with private providers and vendors unlike the current restrictions on Medicare/Medicaid where the government is paying some average market price or some shit like that... totally backwards, an incentive for drug companies etc to jack up their "market" prices.

You make some good points, but universal healthcare under a single payer system isn't a backwards system. It's proven to work in most EU countries.
But it's exactly due to the points that you bring up that many supporters of this system are absolutists. You either go all the way with how you structure the system, or you risk your state involvement becoming corporate welfare ending up in for profit "healthcare providers".

[suchmoon]

You make some good points, but universal healthcare under a single payer system isn't a backwards system.

What I meant is that current Medicare/Medicaid pricing system is backwards since it relies on inflated and likely manipulated "market" prices. Some stupid law (pushed by lobbyists no doubt) hobbled the ability of the US federal government - the largest healthcare "customer" in the world - to actually negotiate prices. I can't even begin to convey how ridiculous that is.

[squatz1]

What's your proposed plan SuchMoon? Single Payer? Medicare for All? Government Option? etc?

Honestly I have no idea what Medicare for all actually is, because there have been too many different ideas under that name.

Aside from that, any option that relies on people purchasing insurance (I guess that's what government option would be) is doomed. It needs to be a tax, it needs to replace all that insurance garbage that wastes 20-30% of our healthcare spending on beaurocracy, and it needs to cover absolutely everyone with no exceptions. Having small copays is ok if it can prevent wasteful use of healthcare resources but beyond that money should not enter healthcare decisions.

And of course whatever entity would be managing this, it should be able to negotiate pricing with private providers and vendors unlike the current restrictions on Medicare/Medicaid where the government is paying some average market price or some shit like that... totally backwards, an incentive for drug companies etc to jack up their "market" prices.

Yep, that's typically the argument that people have against public option.

Insurance can't really be 'affordable for all' unless everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) is on the same plan at the same time. The most efficient insurance plan (in regards to health insurance) is one plan that a party with no profit incentive runs, and has every single American on it and paying into it (either directly, or indirectly through taxes) With that, this party running health insurance, typically the gov, can negotiate as they please and any medical provider has no choice but to accept whatever government says.

I don't think we'll go to that instantly though. I see SLOW changes -- like the one you said about letting Medicare/Medicaid negotiate more effectively.

You make some good points, but universal healthcare under a single payer system isn't a backwards system.

What I meant is that current Medicare/Medicaid pricing system is backwards since it relies on inflated and likely manipulated "market" prices. Some stupid law (pushed by lobbyists no doubt) hobbled the ability of the US federal government - the largest healthcare "customer" in the world - to actually negotiate prices. I can't even begin to convey how ridiculous that is.

but....free market capitalism?

[BADecker]

Why do they call it "health care", when they don't care about your health. The best thing they could do is to ban all vaccines, and most of the pharmaceuticals, and do some public research into the causes of illness. Think how much money that would save. The ancient Chinese had the right idea - doctors were paid for the healthy people on their books, and if one became ill, then they lost the money for him. Modern doctors are paid to make people ill, and thus increase their work load.

Jet Cash.... What in the flying fuck are you trying to prove here?

Like I truly don't know what you think is going on. There is no massive conspiracy that everyone is apart of. Do we have a billing problem in the US? Yes. But do we also have some of the best doctors and medicines in the world here in the US? Yes.

Fucking hell not everything is a conspiracy for profit. Vaccines are good, medication is good, not everything is going inside of you so the government can track you or a medical provider can make more money. Is money apart of the reason for making it? Yes. But people buy medicines BECAUSE they work.

Obviously you take medications and get vaccinated. Have you never looked at what's in vaccines? Have you never looked at what's in medicine? Have you never read the side effects? Medicine and vaccines are pure poison. Obviously these substance have overcome your ability to think.

How do medicines and vaccines work in a person. Something like this.

Imagine somebody out on the ocean from a ship wreck. The poor guy doesn't even have a lifeboat, or life jacket. He has been treading water for some time, and is  all tired out. He has found that if he lies on his back in the water and relaxes, breathing deeply, he can remain afloat without much effort. Then a wave comes and nearly swamps him. He struggles to regain his status quo, and is able to do it, relaxing on his back again, trying to rest up and regain his strength. But he has lost valuable energy. He won't be able to fight the waves many more times.

We are living in the ocean of poisons and toxins. Our body has been fighting them off for a long time. We are getting tired, but our immune system has stabilized us, and we are relaxing. Then some medical jokers come along and tell us that we need to get vaccinated and take medication. We do this, and suddenly our bodies have to go into action to keep us from drowning in the administered poisons.

Our bodies fight like the dickens for a while, and we are able to overcome both, the medicine, and the toxins we were drowning in. But we are weakened. One of these medication times we won't survive the poisons and toxins of either, the medications or the world we live in.

Why not forget the medication poisons? There's enough poison in the world from everything from volcanoes to Fukushima. We don't need more. Rather, what we need is good nutrition, the building blocks of the body. Instead we get not only the poison of medicine, but also the poison of being trained in the direction of medicine, and not being able to even think properly about how things really work.

I can't blame you for promoting death. You are doing it inadvertently. It's the way you've been trained. All Jet Cash is trying to do is to wake you up from your stupidity sleep.

[suchmoon]

but....free market capitalism?

Except it's not free because the largest entity (US govt) is prevented from negotiating so it's getting thoroughly fucked by corporations.

Not to mention that we have figured out long time ago that certain infrastructure and service need to be funded by taxes. For some inexplicable reason, despite spending 1/6 of our GDP on healthcare, we still haven't figured out that it's in everyone's best interest to provide healthcare for all.

[BADecker]

Health care is not free. Nobody works for nothing, therefore somebody pays.

Free is donated services. Fulltime donated services drives the server to work that pays. No more free health care.

Government pays for our health care? Then taxes us to make their payments to health care people.

Get rid of free health care. It is destroying any nation that has it. On top of not really being free, the medical doesn't know what it is talking about regarding viruses like Covid.

[suchmoon]

Get rid of free health care. It is destroying any nation that has it.

Bullshit. I'd ask you to list all nations destroyed by free healthcare but I know you'd just respond with some antivaxxer ramblings.

There is no perfect system but what the US calls healthcare is borderline criminal. It deliberately disenfranchises 50+ million uninsured or underinsured and puts a massive burden on businesses, particularly small businesses, to provide healthcare as a "benefit", which basically means paying a third-party to manage it.

There is a factoid being thrown around that the US as a whole spends nearly twice as much per capita than most other sane countries (that have the same or better healthcare outcomes, life expectancy etc) but it's doesn't even reflect the full stupidity of it all because it includes everyone (even the uninsured/underinsured) in the "per capita" part. I don't really know how anyone can consider this a better system than what those less-spending countries have.

[coins4commies]

Health care is not free. Nobody works for nothing, therefore somebody pays.

Free is donated services. Fulltime donated services drives the server to work that pays. No more free health care.

Government pays for our health care? Then taxes us to make their payments to health care people.

Get rid of free health care. It is destroying any nation that has it. On top of not really being free, the medical doesn't know what it is talking about regarding viruses like Covid.

The US government does not tax to spend.  It spends money and then taxes to take excess money out of the system.