Why mixers?

[Serious475]

There are a lot of people would like to use the mixers because the address who received the payment will be mixed or generated a new address so there is no worries about the hacker also some of them for sure will now rotate the funds even there is a transaction fee they will ignore this because the main objective is rotate the money and leave some foot print or we called as the digital foot print in the internet.

[1715501658]

1715501658

[wanted sliter]

That's why you use mixers. Good mixers will completely break the chain between inputs and outputs.

Why are mixers legal? The only purpose I find on them is to money launder. They are literally useless if you don't have anything to hide.

The mixer was not meant to serve scammers as a money laundering tool, it helps people to ensure the privacy of their money and to keep the money safe from hackers' attention.
But accidentally mixing is also a way for hackers to launder money. Just like Bitcoin, monero, dash, Zec ... these cryptocurrencies are not born to serve criminals but they have been used to launder money.
As well as money in your bank account. You have to pay taxes on your income but if you want privacy no one will notice you switching to crypto or anything else of value.
There are two sides to everything.

[o_e_l_e_o]

And my personal opinion is... even if mixers were used in a significant percentage for illegal activity, banning them means taking away my right to privacy. This is what people don't get: we're literally setting our own right to privacy on fire by wrongfully placing privacy and crimes in the same pot.

Agreed. Let's say we did ban mixers. What do people think is going to happen? Criminals will just throw their hands up and say "Oh well, that's my life of crime over, better go get a 9-5 job and be a law abiding citizen."? Of course not. They will use coinjoin, or payjoin, or whirlpool, or atomic swaps, or DEXs, or the thousands of ways they can launder cash which have been going on for hundreds of years. As the old saying (kind of) goes, if you make privacy illegal, then only criminals will have privacy.

That is because one of the main characteristic of Bitcoin is provide you with complete anonymity and privacy with your Bitcoins.

Bitcoin is absolutely not completely anonymous. If it were, we wouldn't need things like mixers in the first place.

[Cryptoreflector_666]

Recently a man was deceived by someone who had change the electrum source code on an old version of it. He lost 1400BTC(!)

I had made a similar question in the past, but the answer didn't satisfy me. Why should that hacker use a mixer? If he try to sell the bitcoins from his main address (the one with the 1400BTC) he will get caught, because he will prove that he is the hacker.

If he send 1BTC to 1400 owned addresses, though, no one can prove that the person that owns those 1400 addresses is the hacker, right? They can only ask them where did you get that one bitcoin.

Look deeper - no one will ask where a person got this bitcoin, since all bitcoin transactions are transparent and you can see who sent it to whom and when. All these wallets that will contain one bitcoin will eventually lead to one wallet and this will cause a huge number of questions. In any case, all transactions are transparent and you need to keep this in mind.

[Astvile]

That's why you use mixers. Good mixers will completely break the chain between inputs and outputs.

Why are mixers legal? The only purpose I find on them is to money launder. They are literally useless if you don't have anything to hide.

Mixers are legal because it is suppose to be used in legal way, hiding your real identity and for privacy of transactions. Some people are just taking advantage of it using it to launder money and even scam people without getting traced using mixers.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I think that @o_e_l_e_o and @20kevin20 said correctly why mixers should exist legally and they changed my mind. In what I really agree is that banning them, doesn't mean that it will damage the criminals. They will find another way like monero etc. So yes, since privacy matters, then mixers matter too.

P.S, great debate for your signature campaign, o_e_l_e_o 

Mixers are legal because it is suppose to be used in legal way, hiding your real identity and for privacy of transactions. Some people are just taking advantage of it using it to launder money and even scam people without getting traced using mixers.

Yes, I agree, but as a conclusion of the posts above you, you can use a knife to make a great dinner or to kill someone. It doesn't make the knife illegal, but the person who uses it to murder.

[Killrbit]

I think that @o_e_l_e_o and @20kevin20 said correctly why mixers should exist legally and they changed my mind. In what I really agree is that banning them, doesn't mean that it will damage the criminals. They will find another way like monero etc. So yes, since privacy matters, then mixers matter too.

While i agree with everything that's been said here, the problem in these type of situations is that government's often don't care about this. Most end up taking a heavy handed approach to these issues and push out or at least attempt to push out bans even when they know themselves that such bans will be difficult to enforce. It doesn't matter to them that criminals will always manage to find away around their bans and it is always the average user that ends up bearing the brunt of their arbitrary laws.


Take Tax laws as an example here. Most states try to impose heavy penalties including imprisonment etc for non payment of taxes, late filings etc. Again this is done to deter criminal and large organizations yet most times its the little guy that ends up getting targeted or bearing the brunt of these laws while the larger entities who can hire the best lawyers ( or the best options that money can buy depending on what scenario we are talking about) will often find a loop hole around the problem.

Mixers are legal because it is suppose to be used in legal way, hiding your real identity and for privacy of transactions. Some people are just taking advantage of it using it to launder money and even scam people without getting traced using mixers.

Yes, I agree, but as a conclusion of the posts above you, you can use a knife to make a great dinner or to kill someone. It doesn't make the knife illegal, but the person who uses it to murder.

Yea the thing with any technology or anything for that matter is that there will always be some people who use said product in an illegal manner . That however does not mean that any fault lies in  the product only in the entity using it.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Most end up taking a heavy handed approach to these issues and push out or at least attempt to push out bans even when they know themselves that such bans will be difficult to enforce.

You are spot on here, and this is by no means unique to cryptocurrencies. Regulations aimed at building backdoors in to end-to-end encryption messengers or the ever hilarious "banning encryption", and laws such as the "EARN IT" Act or the newer "Lawful Access to Encrypted Data" Act. And this kind of nonsense is by no means unique to the US, with governments around the world introducing similar laws and bills aimed at removing all privacy for the common citizen. Despite being unable to prove a single instance where this kind of privacy invasion has prevented a crime, the US government pushes ahead with it nonetheless under the guise of "safety" and "won't you think of the children!". It is mass surveillance, nothing more, nothing less.

Having said that, however, we should be by no means just rolling over and accepting it. If we let the governments of the world pass these kinds of laws with no fight, then any and all privacy will rapidly become a thing of the past. And when it comes to bitcoin, that means the community not accepting ever more invasive KYC and certainly not rubbishing the vital service that things like mixers and coinjoins provide.

[Killrbit]

Despite being unable to prove a single instance where this kind of privacy invasion has prevented a crime, the US government pushes ahead with it nonetheless under the guise of "safety" and "won't you think of the children!". It is mass surveillance, nothing more, nothing less.

Having said that, however, we should be by no means just rolling over and accepting it. If we let the governments of the world pass these kinds of laws with no fight, then any and all privacy will rapidly become a thing of the past. And when it comes to bitcoin, that means the community not accepting ever more invasive KYC and certainly not rubbishing the vital service that things like mixers and coinjoins provide.

Yes whether in Bitcoin or some other facet of life you have to fight these things or states will just take one liberty at time inch by inch, all the while having the gall to brand you and anyone else that talks about about privacy and mass surveillance as some sort of conspiracy theorist nut job or as someone who is being selfish and not thinking of the greater good. However nothing can be used as an excuse/justifaction for actions like this or we will soon find our selves in an Orwellian.  

I think the best example of this is the Prisim debacle ( which many people seem to have either forgotten or simply ignored) where despite being caught red handed the government working hand in hand with many media outlets was able to change the whole narrative from one of spying/mass surveillance ( which ironically we so quickly condemn other nations for however when we do it, it is only for the greater good, orwellian much) to one of treason ( for disclosing our governments illegal activities against our own citizens) against the Edward Snowden.

[Yamifoud]

Not all transactions run into Bitcoin mixer are illegal or something say it was coming from scamming or hacking. No, the mixer doesn't rush to make questions with that to a person who did the transfer. But, don't you surprise hearing some hackers get in hunts with the authorities because of their crimes? The mixer does the monitoring of every transaction and if that is suspicious, they'll have to trace it where it comes and whos owned the wallet address.

[Peanutswar]

On the first place, I don't have any idea what does the bitcoin mixer is because when I'm making a transaction I just send the address and add some transaction fee that's it and a friend of mine introduced me a bitcoin mixer and this helps to make my transaction anonymously and also im trusting him I just try to transfer some little amount of funds and it works well.

So I think that many people would like to commit or do this kind of use with the mixer because they can easily manipulate the number of transactions and make it anonymously even there is a small transaction fee amount it's nothing because it's better to become safe.

Also, I have a question too is there any possibility you can detect the main address at the same time the transaction ID even with the use of mixer.?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Also, I have a question too is there any possibility you can detect the main address at the same time the transaction ID even with the use of mixer.?

Yes. If you use a mixer of poor quality, then it is possible to break the mixer and link inputs and outputs together. See this discussion for more information: Breaking Mixing Services.

Even if you use a high quality mixer, then you can still de-anonymize yourself in other ways. If I send coins from address A to the mixer and then from the mixer to address B, and I later use address A and B in the same transaction, or use A and B in different transactions but both paired with address C, for example, then it is trivial to link these addresses back together.

[20kevin20]

Take Tax laws as an example here. Most states try to impose heavy penalties including imprisonment etc for non payment of taxes, late filings etc. Again this is done to deter criminal and large organizations yet most times its the little guy that ends up getting targeted or bearing the brunt of these laws while the larger entities who can hire the best lawyers ( or the best options that money can buy depending on what scenario we are talking about) will often find a loop hole around the problem.

Many of the big guys are working off grid with corrupted governments anyway, so we, the lower classes, end up being treated the crappiest way although the vast majority of us are the most compliant. Tax laws are there for the poor to pay, as large companies and multi-millionaires afford having off-shore accounts and various ways to legally minimize taxes while we pay ours under fear.

This is exactly why we should never look past privacy as if it shouldn't be there. If it goes away, the big ones are going to be private while we'll have to comply with pathetic regulations and restrictions, sharing every little detail of our private life under the "fight against criminal activity". Privacy should be part of our lives, one of our main rights and something you shouldn't feel like it's shrinking on a daily basis. Presumption of innocence should mean that we should not have to fear being tagged as criminals for willing to be the only persons knowing where one of our assets go, how many we hold and what we're doing with them.

Using mixers is basically the same thing as cashing out your bank account balance and hiding it in some well-hidden safe in your house: nobody knows how much you have left, if there are other stacks of cash inside the vault, if anyone else holds any of your just cashed out sum and so on. Guess that's one of the main reasons why they desperately want to push the cashless society to the front. All anyone knows besides you is how much you've cashed out. Keep that money in a "transparent ledger" (transparent for the banks and authorities, not for everyone unlike Bitcoin) and they'll know the course of every single penny you hold.

If there's one interesting thing I have noticed, it's that constantly banning various services, use cases and opportunities you have with BTC (introducing KYC restrictions on exchanges, having almost no more anonymous ATMs around, Binance freezing accounts for using mixers etc) only makes me want to go even more off the grid and find even better ways to hide under a cloud of privacy.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If there's one interesting thing I have noticed, it's that constantly banning various services, use cases and opportunities you have with BTC (introducing KYC restrictions on exchanges, having almost no more anonymous ATMs around, Binance freezing accounts for using mixers etc) only makes me want to go even more off the grid and find even better ways to hide under a cloud of privacy.

I still do not understand why people put up with this. They use a centralized exchange and say "Oh well, KYC is the price I have to pay". Then the exchange gets hacked and leaks personal information and they say "Oh well, if my info has already been compromised, then I might as well just keep using the exchange". Then the exchange starts locking accounts and they say "Well, they haven't locked my account yet so I'll just keep using them". And then the exchange starts dictating how they can spend their coins, or selling their data, or working with governments, and they come up with some other excuse.

When does it end? What does an exchange actually have to do for 99% of crypto users to say "Enough is enough"? How much control over their bitcoin and their lives will they let the exchange take before they look elsewhere?

[pokeronlinestatus]

Recently a man was deceived by someone who had change the electrum source code on an old version of it. He lost 1400BTC(!)

I had made a similar question in the past, but the answer didn't satisfy me. Why should that hacker use a mixer? If he try to sell the bitcoins from his main address (the one with the 1400BTC) he will get caught, because he will prove that he is the hacker.

If he send 1BTC to 1400 owned addresses, though, no one can prove that the person that owns those 1400 addresses is the hacker, right? They can only ask them where did you get that one bitcoin.

I laughed at 'creating 1400 addresses'. I don’t think anyone, whether your a hacker or not, would have that kind of time to sit down and create up to 1400 cryptocurrency addresses and then start moving one Bitcoin to each of them, like you’re going to do that up to 1400 times, lol like who will have that kind of time?

By the way, I think if you’re creating addresses on the same computer you can still be traced not hundred per cent sure about this though, just saying; but if those addresses are running on the same comp, you will caught. But no one has that time, so they will make use of mixers to escape.

[imstillthebest]

I laughed at 'creating 1400 addresses'. I don’t think anyone, whether your a hacker or not, would have that kind of time to sit down and create up to 1400 cryptocurrency addresses and then start moving one Bitcoin to each of them, like you’re going to do that up to 1400 times, lol like who will have that kind of time?

By the way, I think if you’re creating addresses on the same computer you can still be traced not hundred per cent sure about this though, just saying; but if those addresses are running on the same comp, you will caught. But no one has that time, so they will make use of mixers to escape.

theres wallet that are almost instant or no sign up required . they can used it  , sending coin is also quick ( not the process ) but thats not a problem because coins will still arrived soon .

 by that theyd be able to complete the task within a few hours and lets not forget that they also have friends to do the task with them  but we forgot that they are hackers  . hackers are pretty slick and dont want such hustle , they can think of less stressful ways to cleanse the coins .

[Lorence.xD]

That's why you use mixers. Good mixers will completely break the chain between inputs and outputs.

Why are mixers legal? The only purpose I find on them is to money launder. They are literally useless if you don't have anything to hide.

Why are privacy coins like Monero legal? They are even more suitable for money laundering than Bitcoin. Privacy is on of the basis human rights.

As long as there are people with ill intent then that will be a problem. Privacy is important when it comes to online finances and the crimes that have been perpetrated does not outweigh the benefits of anonymity. I agree that money laundering is a big problem but if investigations and audits were efficient then they can apprehend who's behind the laundering.

[Natalim]

If he send 1BTC to 1400 owned addresses, though, no one can prove that the person that owns those 1400 addresses is the hacker, right? They can only ask them where did you get that one bitcoin.

When there's an investigation the authorities will trace all the transactions especially the amount involve is a significant amount.

If the hacker send the hack BTC to an exchange where he slowly withdraw according the limit using a non verified account then the exchange would never know if who owns the bitcoin, however, there are always a trail since everything goes to the blockchain and the exchange knows the transaction.

If the hacker then will send the btc to a mixer, then I would say it's hard to find but it's not impossible since like I said everything goes in the blockhain and I don't know if it's possible for a mixer to cooperate with the authorities.

[kotajikikox]

That's why you use mixers. Good mixers will completely break the chain between inputs and outputs.

Why are mixers legal? The only purpose I find on them is to money launder. They are literally useless if you don't have anything to hide.

Why are privacy coins like Monero legal? They are even more suitable for money laundering than Bitcoin. Privacy is on of the basis human rights.

As long as there are people with ill intent then that will be a problem. Privacy is important when it comes to online finances and the crimes that have been perpetrated does not outweigh the benefits of anonymity. I agree that money laundering is a big problem but if investigations and audits were efficient then they can apprehend who's behind the laundering.

And besides there are cases now that being resolved and some of them comes from using mixers yet they have been found.
I think this is why governments are very strict in Mixing company and couple had been banned and stop operation this past years.
Only the strongest and finest remain like Chipmixer.
Money laundering is not only in Crypto because like what says here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5277249.0

Banks is more on the option of criminals before bitcoin even arrived.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I don’t think anyone, whether your a hacker or not, would have that kind of time to sit down and create up to 1400 cryptocurrency addresses and then start moving one Bitcoin to each of them

This is not a difficult or time consuming thing to do. In a good wallet you can generate that many addresses with a single command, and then a couple more commands to generate a few pay to many transactions to distribute 1 BTC to each address. Doable in 5 minutes.

I don't know if it's possible for a mixer to cooperate with the authorities.

A good mixer, like a good VPN, should not keep logs and so be unable to give any useful information to the authorities. If your mixer is handing over your transaction details to the authorities, then I would suggest that you find a new mixer.