Question to admins: How to I do this right?

[Pmalek]

I opened a thread in the Gambling Discussion board yesterday. I am going to quote the entire OP so you can better understand what it is about first.

Background information

What is this all about? I have read many customer reviews where members of Bitcointalk are claiming that various casinos are refusing to let them withdraw their funds on the grounds that they have gambled and accessed the site from a restricted country/jurisdiction.

The only problem is that some casinos allow users from restricted countries to register and gamble, but when they want to withdraw their winnings, they are told they broke the TOS.

I have decided to test 10 random casinos from the gambling section to see whether or not I could enter their site from a restricted location or if there would be an IP ban or other notification telling me that I can't access their site.

How did I perform this test?

1. I opened the ANN threads of 10 casinos that were on the top of the list in the Gambling board.
2. I read the casino's TOS to find information about which countries are restricted.
3. I used a VPN to access the casino to test whether or not there was an active IP block from restricted countries.
4. I did not register a new account, but I clicked on the register buttons to see if it worked.

What now?

If someone's country is restricted from playing at a certain casino, citizens of that country shouldn't be able to register and deposit money to it. There should be an IP ban as soon as you load the site in your browser.
I am planning to notify the casinos who failed the tests.
I will do more tests in the next days and when I have more time and post the results.

Local Rules 

1. This is not a topic to discuss your favorite casinos, games, promotions, sports, etc. I will self-moderate the thread and delete any posts that promote/attack certain platforms.
2. You are free to do your own tests and post some results, as long as you were successful in accessing a site from a restricted location.
3. Keep the discussion nice and clean. 

If you have any suggestions, don't hesitate to let me know.

Notice the bolded and italicized sentence that says I am planning to notify the casinos who failed the tests.
My question is how do I do this properly without being reported/accused of spamming/advertising/PM harassment? 

My initial thoughts were to send the casinos a PM telling them about my tests, sharing a link to my thread, and advising them that it is possible to enter their platform from a restricted location. In my opinion, that shouldn't be possible and casinos should change their approach and prevent these kind of players from accessing their sites at all, and not when they are attempting to withdraw their winnings. 

I doubt this will be a big success, but I feel like I should try. What are your thoughts?

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[Little Mouse]

If you are fearing of being reported to the forum mod for sending unsolicited PM, I think you would better use other form of communication as most of thr casinos have their telegram group or chat or even email address to contact with them. That would be best in my opinion.
However, I doubt mod would consider such a PM as spam since you are not spamming in reality. You can send one by one and I believe that will not create any problem.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

My question is how do I do this properly without being reported/accused of spamming/advertising/PM harassment?

I think if you are not sending same text to everyone but composing it to meet each of them's need you should be fine. There is another way you can do it to use their ANN thread. In their ANN you can mention the OP of the thread and can post your concern, findings is more appropriate. The other option for you is to contract through their support page in their website.

I am regular with sportsbet.io and always use VPN. When the VPN has USA IP, I usually see a notification that I am from a restricted area etc.

[Casdinyard]

~

TBH, I don't really think that those platforms really care when their users are from the countries they have prohibited. First of all, they know that such users uses VPN as most VPNs have almost the same head IPs. But still, gambling platforms prefer their services to be used wherever country a user resides.

But if you want to report certain users that shouldn't be able to access a certain platform, keep in mind to say the matter in a kind manner like "Seems thacert you are using VPN for accessing this gambling platform which is clearly prohibits the accessing of the platform in your country. Not to be rude but I kinda reported many users, not to kill the joy, but to just maintain that the gamblers and the platform they use do supports the country a person resides. Please no hate, but withdraw your holding in there before I reported the matter". I don't know if this would sound nice or acceptable by the others, but if they really are good gamblers, then they would accept those (IMO hehe)

[Welsh]

Most casinos have a support email which might be more appropriate. Although, I don't see it that big of a deal if you're contacting each casino, and providing them specific information to their site on what they failed on etc. As far as I know, and this might need to be confirmed as long as you aren't spamming the same message to every single one of them there should be little problems. Alternatively, you could open a thread, and get casinos to opt in. I don't know whether this would be of interest to most casinos since they tend to just ignore these issues, and claim ignorance, but could be an option for you.

Doesn't really qualify as spam to me, you're informing each casino of a "bug" that directly goes against their own terms of service. Some casinos might in fact appreciate it, while others will likely ignore it since they'll want as many users as possible to be playing on their site.

[Pmalek]

There is another way you can do it to use their ANN thread.

That is the first thing I considered, but the post would probably be buried in between all the other user comments. 

TBH, I don't really think that those platforms really care when their users are from the countries they have prohibited.

That would say a lot about them and their way of doing business. It would also be good for the users to see which casinos don't care where you are from until it is time to make a withdrawal.

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I couldn't figure out what you are talking about in the 2nd part of your post. Something about reporting users

Snip

I will probably end up using a combination of contact via live chat. If that is not available, I will make a post in their ANN and make them aware of my thread and what I found. I will stay away from PMs not to risk unnecessary complications.   

[hilariousetc]

Maybe post in their thread with a link to your thread. I'm sure some won't appreciate a PM so they'd be likely to report it. I doubt most would care though. I do agree that businesses shouldn't be blocking/withholding funds like this though. If some sort of kyc is going to be involved then they should have to do this at the start and not when they try to withdraw money as it seems like a loophole the casinos can choose to exploit when they want.

[AB de Royse777]

If some sort of kyc is going to be involved then they should have to do this at the start and not when they try to withdraw money as it seems like a loophole the casinos can choose to exploit when they want.

The casinos are not going to do this. Imagine they are doing this (doing KYC at the start) and in that case they will lose enough percentage of clients that will make their life hard (not making much money). I can't imagine how much money they earn from these users. In scam accusation board we see users are complaining regularly that their account has been frozen, money seized etc. Most of the time these casinos are only refunding the deposits and taking the winnings.

^^ This you got only those who think or find the forum to complain. What percentage do you think these people are? Most of the users in the casinos do not know where to complain, they just talk to the customer service and when the customer service stops responding, they give up eventually and accept the losses. I believe the number of these type of users are way to high then the cases we see in the forum or askgambler.

I do not think the casinos will appreciate if anyone wants to fix something that is making them good money. If OP PM them then they will immediately report the PM so that they can stop OP.

[hilariousetc]

If some sort of kyc is going to be involved then they should have to do this at the start and not when they try to withdraw money as it seems like a loophole the casinos can choose to exploit when they want.

The casinos are not going to do this. Imagine they are doing this (doing KYC at the start) and in that case they will lose enough percentage of clients that will make their life hard (not making much money). I can't imagine how much money they earn from these users. In scam accusation board we see users are complaining regularly that their account has been frozen, money seized etc. Most of the time these casinos are only refunding the deposits and taking the winnings.

Their life will be hard when people are constantly complaining about not being able to withdraw funds and I'm seeing this more and more. They should either be using KYC properly and requesting it upon sign-up or not at all. I think most if not all legit sites will make you set up KYC before you can even proceed in the first place. A bank wouldn't let you create an account then ask for KYC after you've deposited or tried to withdraw money. Bitcoin sites shouldn't be knowingly let you play from an excluded country then asking for KYC as a barrier to withdrawal as this is just giving them an opportunity to not pay out. If this becomes common it's only a matter of time before someone is due a huge pay out and the casino blocks it through this loophole just because they don't want to take their loss. Their reputations will quickly become tarnished if this is so.

[AB de Royse777]

Their life will be hard when people are constantly complaining about not being able to withdraw funds and I'm seeing this more and more.

You missed my point. Life becoming hard in terms of making less money, not having the hassle of facing complaints. These casinos are happy to face all the fights and complaints against them because they know they have their defence ready. They always hide them behind their T&C.

lose enough percentage of clients that will make their life hard (not making much money).

They should either be using KYC properly and requesting it upon sign-up or not at all. I think most if not all legit sites will make you set up KYC before you can even proceed in the first place. A bank wouldn't let you create an account then ask for KYC after you've deposited or tried to withdraw money. Bitcoin sites shouldn't be knowingly let you play from an excluded country then asking for KYC as a barrier to withdrawal as this is just giving them an opportunity to not pay out. If this becomes common it's only a matter of time before someone is due a huge pay out and the casino blocks it through this loophole just because they don't want to take their loss. Their reputations will quickly become tarnished if this is so.

I am pretty sure you do not visit the scam accusation board more often or you would know that we who get involve with resolving the cases arrives in the forum - we all say the same but none of them cares. They won't care since this will reduce the money they get from this grey source.

[hilariousetc]

Their life will be hard when people are constantly complaining about not being able to withdraw funds and I'm seeing this more and more.

You missed my point. Life becoming hard in terms of making less money, not having the hassle of facing complaints. These casinos are happy to face all the fights and complaints against them because they know they have their defence ready. They always hide them behind their T&C.

lose enough percentage of clients that will make their life hard (not making much money).

I think you miss my point as well: more complaints and scam accusations = less money fore them as well (including tarnished reputations). The whole point of using bitcoin casinos is to not have to go through KYC. If they're going to demand it after a win then more people will just stay away and I would advise them to do so if they're demanding this information only after an attempted cash out.

They should either be using KYC properly and requesting it upon sign-up or not at all. I think most if not all legit sites will make you set up KYC before you can even proceed in the first place. A bank wouldn't let you create an account then ask for KYC after you've deposited or tried to withdraw money. Bitcoin sites shouldn't be knowingly let you play from an excluded country then asking for KYC as a barrier to withdrawal as this is just giving them an opportunity to not pay out. If this becomes common it's only a matter of time before someone is due a huge pay out and the casino blocks it through this loophole just because they don't want to take their loss. Their reputations will quickly become tarnished if this is so.

I am pretty sure you do not visit the scam accusation board more often or you would know that we who get involve with resolving the cases arrives in the forum - we all say the same but none of them cares. They won't care since this will reduce the money they get from this grey source.

If this has become common practice then people should push for change and react accordingly if casinos are abusing this to withhold money from people.

[Pmalek]

Maybe post in their thread with a link to your thread. I'm sure some won't appreciate a PM so they'd be likely to report it. I doubt most would care though. I do agree that businesses shouldn't be blocking/withholding funds like this though. If some sort of kyc is going to be involved then they should have to do this at the start and not when they try to withdraw money as it seems like a loophole the casinos can choose to exploit when they want.

That's what I did in the end. I posted in their ANN so that it is all out in the public.

The problem with KYC is that many gamblers will not want to do that. Even though that is a common practice on fiat-based casinos. On fiat-based casinos they have no choice, you have to verify both your identity and address soon after registering your account.

I have mixed feelings about the results because I think there might be a mistake, especially for the casinos where IPs for 2 countries were blocked but 1 wasn't. Or the other way around. I could access the site from 2 restricted locations, but couldn't from a 3rd.

[hilariousetc]

The problem with KYC is that many gamblers will not want to do that. Even though that is a common practice on fiat-based casinos. On fiat-based casinos they have no choice, you have to verify both your identity and address soon after registering your account.

I have mixed feelings about the results because I think there might be a mistake, especially for the casinos where IPs for 2 countries were blocked but 1 wasn't. Or the other way around. I could access the site from 2 restricted locations, but couldn't from a 3rd.

I'm sure they won't want to do that and that's why it should be stated upfront if it's required, as many people will just assume it's not needed only then to be annoyingly blocked when they win and try cashout which isn't fair. I feel like casinos should be upfront about this regardless of if it turns people away or not. They're only going to turn many more away when this happens or if there's uncertainty.

[Harlot]

Recording your tests I think will be a good proof that you are actually testing their casinos and not just promoting them that they are some kind of TOS trap for banned countries. You can't really 100% have no haters when it comes to these kinds of content as there will always be people thinking that your reviews has biased or are not properly executed. And based from what I have seen in the past with some related cases there are people who actually have bypass the country restriction by actually registering with a use of vpn and only the time when they will withdraw their winnings is where their accounts will be frozen.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

However, I doubt mod would consider such a PM as spam since you are not spamming in reality.

Nah, even if the recipients reported the PMs, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be viewed as spam--and they aren't.

I think this is a great experiment and wish you luck, but if you're using a VPN that tells the casino that you're in an unrestricted country, how are they supposed to know the truth?  I'm not expert as far as VPNs go, but I suspect you won't have any trouble registering (or at least getting past the first click in the process) with any of these casinos. 

And when it comes to users wanting to withdraw their funds, how are they getting caught in the end if they're presumably still using a VPN?  I've definitely read a lot of scam accusations regarding denial of withdrawal of winnings, etc., but as I don't visit casinos myself I don't know exactly how they operate.

[Rikafip]

I think this is a great experiment and wish you luck, but if you're using a VPN that tells the casino that you're in an unrestricted country, how are they supposed to know the truth?  I'm not expert as far as VPNs go, but I suspect you won't have any trouble registering (or at least getting past the first click in the process) with any of these casinos.  

He is using VPN to appear accessing gambling site from restricted countries. So, if he chooses US server and gambling sites is restricted to US users, he shouldn't be able to access that site if they are blocking properly. People are usually using VPN to avoid IP detection, so for example if they are from US, they will choose some other server to avoid the ban.

"Fun" starts when you win a lot of money and then they ask for KYC, and on your ID it shows that you played from restricted country. Or they may  let you play even tough they know that you are playing from restricted country, but won't mind you playing and loosing until you want to withdraw big winning. As others pointed out, fair thing would be to ask for KYC before even letting you deposit (if they plan to do that later) but we all know that won't happen.

[-CryptoViking-]

He is using VPN to appear accessing gambling site from restricted countries. So, if he chooses US server and gambling sites is restricted to US users, he shouldn't be able to access that site if they are blocking properly. People are usually using VPN to avoid IP detection, so for example if they are from US, they will choose some other server to avoid the ban.

"Fun" starts when you win a lot of money and then they ask for KYC, and on your ID it shows that you played from restricted country. Or they may  let you play even tough they know that you are playing from restricted country, but won't mind you playing and loosing until you want to withdraw big winning. As others pointed out, fair thing would be to ask for KYC before even letting you deposit (if they plan to do that later) but we all know that won't happen.

Or properly blocking the country. I play on only 1 casino and didn't want to experiment solely because of this reason. When you get to a point to withdraw they can use any of your transgressions to avoid paying you. I also think it is unethical to let people play from restricted county, VPN or not, and then deny the withdrawal.

Every casino that does not want issue that could tarnish their rep should be extremely transparent about his VPN issue.

[AB de Royse777]

I think you miss my point as well: more complaints and scam accusations = less money fore them as well (including tarnished reputations).

We are even, the truth is casinos do not care much once they become big.

The whole point of using bitcoin casinos is to not have to go through KYC. If they're going to demand it after a win then more people will just stay away and I would advise them to do so if they're demanding this information only after an attempted cash out.

In the recent time in scam accusations board we had enough drama to know how it is happening. Bitcoin casinos are demanding KYC once a user is winning big and giving the deposited funds back only after telling their so-called investigation found out the user is breaking t&c. This only happens when a user wins big. But how about those users who do not win but still breaking t&c. The number of these users are larger than the number of lucky users who won big.

If this has become common practice then people should push for change and react accordingly if casinos are abusing this to withhold money from people.

And how are you going to stop the paid shills? There are users in this forum who are established members but shamelessly they will do anything to protect their employers even they will gather together, call each others and will try to protect their bosses.

But this push thing is working for some selective casinos but not for all.

[Pmalek]

Recording your tests I think will be a good proof that you are actually testing their casinos and not just promoting them that they are some kind of TOS trap for banned countries.

You are welcome to carry out your own tests if you don't trust my findings and check for yourself. I don't have ulterior motives here nor any reasons to promote/bash certain platforms. I am not going to go to the trouble of recoding myself, that is just unnecessary. If I am proven wrong, I will test some more and say that I was wrong, I misunderstood how their system works, or that they have changed their setup.

Snip

Rikafip explained everything very well so there is nothing else for me to add.

4 casinos have been informed about what I discovered. 1 has decided to join the discussion and offer their point of view, which is a positive thing. 3 are keeping quiet or have not seen/have no interest in commenting.