Best Place To Store Your Seed?

[jerry0]

I had an electrum seed and wrote it on piece of paper.  I then decided to write it on a password program like lastpass/keepass.  So in order to get into the lastpass, you need a password.  And i put the lastpass in dropbox/google drive and store it there.  My thought was if someone somehow hacked into my gmail/dropbox, well they still need the password to my lastpass in order to get into my electrum seed.  I put the electrum seed in there as i type it out a long with my other bank account and everything whether its online site or anything.



Then i no longer used electrum.  I used a nano ledger s and store coins there.  But I did not type in my nano ledger seed in lastpass and thus did not store that in gmail/dropbox.  But again if i did... well a hacker would need to first hack into my gmail/dropbox... then get into the lastpass or keepass etc.  Wouldn't that be very hard?  And imagine you encrypt lastpass as well.  Wouldn't that be way too hard?



So i only have the seed written on paper and put it in the house.  But of course things could happen like fire, floods etc.  So what is the best way to store your seed to prevent this?  I heard of cryptosteel where its fireproof and floodproof so that works?  But isn't the issue if someone finds it, well its pretty easy to see oh why is there a bunch of long words and some ppl might even figure out its the seed to a wallet?



Now if you write the seed in a notebook with a ton of stuff there, well that would be hard for someone to find.  Imagine like you have a notebook where you have the seed there but also in the first few pages write down like nursery school rhyme or children books and lot of stuff like that, well obviously it won't look like its important.



Also i hear ppl say break your seed into two or three parts.  That makes sense but do you leave all the parts in the same house/apartment?  You hear about how you give one half to someone else you trust, you keep other half.  Well what if you no longer see the other person anymore or something happens, then what?  Obviously you would need to immediately send your coins to a temporary wallet in the meantime.

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[jerry0]

I heard ppl say put it in bank safety box and put it in two parts.  That seem good idea since well even if someone get access to your box with half the seed, they still need the other half.  But what if someone break into the safe and you didn't know until later on?  Or say it happens and your seed paper is gone... though that person only need to take a picture of it or write it down as taking the paper would be dumb as it would draw suspicion.  But if you lose half the seed, and say your hardware wallet malfunctions, then you are like screwed.


I know ppl say the moment you don't have access to your seed, immediately get the coins out of that current wallet.  But if you are on vacation and you come back and house burn or flood, well then you are screwed.  I mean its like unless you live in one of those nice high rise condos or hotels with security to check in... its like you are always vulnerable?  For example i feel like if you live in those luxury buildings with security and live in the mid to higher floors... well then your seed, device will be pretty safe?



So wouldn't that mean typing your seed in lastpass/keepass and storing that in your google drive or dropbox... would still be relatively safe?  Because hacker need to hack your email... but they need to get in your lastpass/keepass which would be very hard to almost impossible assuming you dont have malware on your laptop?  I feel like its safe this way because well if there is a fire or flood and your seed is destroyed or device is destroyed or whatnot, well as long as you remember your gmail/dropbox password and of course your lastpass/keepass password, well the seed is there.  People say never store your seed in an email, but isn't this way more complex since they need to get through multiple steps?  First the email or dropbox cloud service, then they need the password program password?  And you might even encrypt it as well.  But if you do so much, of course you could forget one of the passwords.

[HCP]

There are millions of ways to store your seed mnemonics. You've listed most of the common ways that people do this, ie. combinations of the following:

- Written on paper/waterproof paper/laminated
- Engraved/Stored using "Cryptosteel"-type solutions
- "Hidden" amongst other info/Stenography
- Encrypted on a cloud service
- Stored in safety deposit box/bank vault/fire and water proof safes etc
- Split seeds over multiple locations

They all have pro's and con's with regards to cost, ease of setup/use, convenience, ease of restoration, susceptibility to accidental loss/damage/fire/flood/theft etc. Find a way that suits your particular level of "risk acceptance", and go with that.

Also, if you're going to go with split seeds, check out the various "Shamir Secret Sharing" options available... this will generally prevent total loss if a single piece is lost (which can be the case in simply splitting in half etc), while still making it impossible to recover the entire seed unless X-of-Y pieces are available (like multisig wallets etc)

[hugeblack]

It is easy to choose place, but it is difficult to say that this method is the best, as each has its pros and cons.

Places that I do not advise you:

• Save it digitally in any image (on your computer, your email, server, etc.) even if you encrypt it, the risk is still possible.
• Store it in places you do not trust: It is relative, but if there are people in the house or area in which you live, who know about crypto, it is better to store it in a good way and not to put it in a notebook or next to your money.

There are many methods, you can try a mixture of them, and if you want to think about minerals, this person has already done some experiments^[1].

[1] https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

[PrimeNumber7]

When creating backups of your seed, you should follow the "3, 2, 1"
You should have at least 3 copies of your deed
You should have your seed stored in at least 2 mediums of storage
You should store your seed in at least 1 off-site location (such as a safety deposit box)

[bob123]

But I did not type in my nano ledger seed in lastpass and thus did not store that in gmail/dropbox.  But again if i did... well a hacker would need to first hack into my gmail/dropbox... then get into the lastpass or keepass etc.  Wouldn't that be very hard?  And imagine you encrypt lastpass as well.  Wouldn't that be way too hard?

Well.. it basically just comes down to one thing: Compromising your main device.
If you are using the same device to access your cloud storage and password manager, this is the one single point of failure.
Compromising your PC would therefore also compromise your cloud access and your password managers database -> and therefore also your mnemonic code.

I heard of cryptosteel where its fireproof and floodproof so that works?  But isn't the issue if someone finds it, well its pretty easy to see oh why is there a bunch of long words and some ppl might even figure out its the seed to a wallet?

Well.. obviously, yes.
But that's the same with 12/24 words written down on a piece of paper. Even tho you are right that it would look more "suspicious" to others.

Now if you write the seed in a notebook with a ton of stuff there, well that would be hard for someone to find.  Imagine like you have a notebook where you have the seed there but also in the first few pages write down like nursery school rhyme or children books and lot of stuff like that, well obviously it won't look like its important.

Sure, but you again have the same problem with fire/water.

Also i hear ppl say break your seed into two or three parts.  That makes sense but do you leave all the parts in the same house/apartment?  You hear about how you give one half to someone else you trust, you keep other half.  Well what if you no longer see the other person anymore or something happens, then what?

You wouldn't actually "break" it in parts.
What you should do is to use a secret sharing scheme. Then simply create a (for example) 2 out of 3 scheme, where 2 parts are enough to recover the mnemonic code (but 1 part does not leak any information at all) and share them as you wish.

[sheenshane]

Is there anyone here who had been tried to use this kind of storing your Bitcoin seed? (see image below)


It is an anti-natural disaster, has capable protection of fireproof and waterproof and it is a laser-etched instead of stamped. Probably it is safe if you have purchase stuff like this but I think if you can afford to purchase it rather than write it in a piece of paper that might easily for you to fold and place into your personal wallet. Upon searching it cost, $79 and it is worth if you have millions of dollars that have been stored and you want to keep in a better place, and without worrying about any disasters come.

I didn't try this but it looks very cool stuff upon storing your seed.

[HCP]

Is there anyone here who had been tried to use this kind of storing your Bitcoin seed? (see image below)
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/11/15/zYySv.png

You might want to have a read of the website that hugeblack posted earlier: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

It's a fairly comprehensive test of a lot of "seed storage" systems... the Billfodl scored:
C - Overall grade
C - Heat grade
A - Corrosion grade
D - Crush grade

[jerry0]

Is there anyone here who had been tried to use this kind of storing your Bitcoin seed? (see image below)
https://i.imgur.com/Ojf0Qbx.png

You might want to have a read of the website that hugeblack posted earlier: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/

It's a fairly comprehensive test of a lot of "seed storage" systems... the Billfodl scored:
C - Overall grade
C - Heat grade
A - Corrosion grade
D - Crush grade

HCP, im curious but do you leave your nano ledger s in the box?  I assume you dont leave it out in the open though in your apartment/house right?  Like you just dont leave it there in the open on the table with your computer and say your usb sticks etc?


I always felt if you put it in a safe ... well you going to need those silica packs inside it right?

[HCP]

I don't leave it in the box. I have it in an airtight container (with silica packs), inside a fireproof/waterproof/airtight safe (with more silica packs), inside a pool that contains sharks with laser beams strapped to their heads, which is surrounded by a moat of lava, inside my evil genius lair, in a volcano, on an uncharted island in the middle of an unspecified ocean... It's pretty quiet out here, but the weather is generally quite nice


Note: When I'm not being an evil genius, it sits in my desk drawer.

[jerry0]

I don't leave it in the box. I have it in an airtight container (with silica packs), inside a fireproof/waterproof/airtight safe (with more silica packs), inside a pool that contains sharks with laser beams strapped to their heads, which is surrounded by a moat of lava, inside my evil genius lair, in a volcano, on an uncharted island in the middle of an unspecified ocean... It's pretty quiet out here, but the weather is generally quite nice


Note: When I'm not being an evil genius, it sits in my desk drawer.

For a second there... i thought you were serious... until i read more of it...

[o_e_l_e_o]

-snip-

Yeah, as HCP says, these "tiles in a holder/template" designs all perform very poorly. Even very minor bending of the device under pressure or warping of device when heated can result in the tiles becoming loose, leading to catastrophic data loss and loss of your seed phrase. By far the best performing devices are the simplest - a plate or thick sheet of solid metal, usually stainless steel or titanium, with your seed phrase etched, engraved, or stamped in to them. You do not need to buy a special device just for this. You can go in to any decent hardware store and pick up such a piece of metal for less than 10 bucks.

-snip-

What, you still haven't got the robotic Richard Simmons yet? Talk about a security risk!

I have a few hardware wallets. One is stored in an airtight/waterproof/fireproof safe without any additional environmental protection. The others are stored in various hidden places in my house and one other secure location, but not in any sort of protective packaging or atmosphere, and so would be exposed to the same temperature and humidity as if they were simply sitting out on my desk. But having said that, my house is always air conditioned to a comfortable temperature and humidity.

[HCP]

For a second there... i thought you were serious... until i read more of it...

Yeah sorry... it's been a relatively long week and my sense of humour has always been a bit "dry"

Anyway, my Nano S has been living in various desk drawers for going on 3+ years now... it's been taken on a couple of international holidays (ie. long haul flights), crossed various borders, been "soft-bricked" once during a bad firmware update, connected to PCs, Laptops and a couple of mobile phones, used with Ledger Chrome Apps, Electrum, MEW, MyCrypto, Ledger Live and Mycelium (and probably other wallets that I've forgotten), reset and restored several times and is still going strong.

I'm not particularly careful with it, but I also don't throw it around or "abuse" it either. Guess I just got lucky and got a solid unit.

[xenon131]

The others are stored in various hidden places in my house and one other secure location, but not in any sort of protective packaging or atmosphere, and so would be exposed to the same temperature and humidity as if they were simply sitting out on my desk.

To prevent from atmospheric impact  you could put those others Ledgers  into  tightly knotted condom. Air humidity depends on temperature that  appears to change from night to day which in turn may lead to the smallest droplets inside Ledger's case (even if your house is air conditioned ), phenomenon  known to be not friendly to  any electronic device.  In the span of the short period it won't do any harm to Ledger  but after the long-term exposure to moisture the wallet  may be out of commission.

[o_e_l_e_o]

-snip-

The problem with putting the device in any air tight container is that the humidity inside that container will be the same as the ambient humidity when you seal it. If the temperature then drops (such as over night), then the moisture in the air will condense out and form droplets as you say, even inside the container. You need a method to remove the moisture from the air inside the container once it has been sealed. The easiest way to do this is to throw in a dessicant, such as the silica gel packets that you sometimes see packaged with electronics.

[jerry0]

https://www.investopedia.com/news/how-winklevoss-twins-store-their-crypto-fortune/


So the winkelvoss store them throughout safety deposit boxes throughout the US.  So in that article, its a paper wallet in each one?  It says a printout of their private keys ... so does that mean like them writing the seed in paper or like a paper seed?


So wouldn't this be very safe?  Thus imagine they split the seed into two with two banks?  But of course they make a copy of each.  So wouldn't that mean like it take four banks for one seed?  Thus imagine they have ten wallets, they they get forty safe deposit boxes throughout the US?


I thought one idea was to have two safety deposit boxes.. where you split it into two pieces of paper.  That seem to be what the winkelvoss does but obviously they do it much more complex.





Also i thought about something else.  What about writing it in a notebook with your other things.  I mean if you look at the notebook with nothing there, well aren't they not going to scroll the notebook right?


The biggest issue I felt is theft or natural disaster.  And people who say use crytosteel... i mean is it easy to hide it?


I thought of something else like imagine you use a code or something.  Like imagine instead of letters for each word, you use a code... like A means C, B means  D.... etc like a code.  The issue is if you forget the code... well it shouldn't be that hard as you move two spots... then wouldn't that be good?  Because its not even words right

[o_e_l_e_o]

Also i thought about something else.  What about writing it in a notebook with your other things.

It is much safer to have your seed phrase securely stored somewhere that other people are not going to find it, rather than have it stored out in the open in a notebook for example, and rely on the fact that someone might not recognize it for what it is because it is somewhat disguised or hidden in among other words/sentences/data/etc.

I thought of something else like imagine you use a code or something.  Like imagine instead of letters for each word, you use a code... like A means C, B means  D.... etc like a code.  The issue is if you forget the code... well it shouldn't be that hard as you move two spots... then wouldn't that be good?  Because its not even words right

Such a simple encoding method is completely trivial to break and adds essentially zero additional security. If you want to store your seed in a protected format then you should encrypt it, and you should back up the encryption key on paper separately.

[Pmalek]

Also i thought about something else.  What about writing it in a notebook with your other things.

If you own a decent book collection that is displayed somewhere in your home, one option is to write it on one of the pages in one of your books. Or divide the seed on 2, 5, 10 books. Preferable located in your work studio. Those shouldn't be books you lend out and that other people take and they should be out of reach for children.

Good luck finding the correct book here. You can only hope the thieves wont burn it all down disappointed they didn't find anything. 

[jerry0]

Also i thought about something else.  What about writing it in a notebook with your other things.

It is much safer to have your seed phrase securely stored somewhere that other people are not going to find it, rather than have it stored out in the open in a notebook for example, and rely on the fact that someone might not recognize it for what it is because it is somewhat disguised or hidden in among other words/sentences/data/etc.

I thought of something else like imagine you use a code or something.  Like imagine instead of letters for each word, you use a code... like A means C, B means  D.... etc like a code.  The issue is if you forget the code... well it shouldn't be that hard as you move two spots... then wouldn't that be good?  Because its not even words right

Such a simple encoding method is completely trivial to break and adds essentially zero additional security. If you want to store your seed in a protect format then you should encrypt it, and you should back up the encryption key on paper separately.

The issue here is a thief would check everywhere so even if you hide it, isn't it still chance they can find it?  Like you mean a hiding spot and not something hidden like a safe right?  I always felt safe is bad idea because isn't that the first place a thief would look besides it in the open and the table/drawers?


Now if you hide it in a notebook or in the open, but its like hidden in words or things like that, well a thief wouldn't even check that wouldn't you agree?


You say the code is trivial, but how would they even figure it out?  I mean it could mean a password that is in code form or something.  Unless that thief knows what it is... wouldn't that be good idea?


What do you mean store it in protect format and encrypt it?  You mean like in a document and encrypt it with axcrypt or bitlocker?  But what you mean encryption key on paper separately?  I dont get the paper part. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

I always felt safe is bad idea because isn't that the first place a thief would look besides it in the open and the table/drawers?

So hide the safe. Bolt it to some concrete underneath your floorboards. No thief is going to find it unless they demolish your house.

Now if you hide it in a notebook or in the open, but its like hidden in words or things like that, well a thief wouldn't even check that wouldn't you agree?

Why wouldn't they? I assume in this scenario the thief knows that they are looking for a bitcoin seed phrase. Words circled in a book or a list of words in a notebook is going to be entirely obvious.

You say the code is trivial, but how would they even figure it out?  I mean it could mean a password that is in code form or something.  Unless that thief knows what it is... wouldn't that be good idea?

A thief who is looking for a seed phrase and finds a list of 24 items will almost immediately realize what they are looking at, even if they aren't "words" as such. A half decent computer will be able to break any simple cipher such as an Caeser cipher or Vigenère cipher almost immediately.

What do you mean store it in protect format and encrypt it?  You mean like in a document and encrypt it with axcrypt or bitlocker?  But what you mean encryption key on paper separately?  I dont get the paper part.  

I mean encrypt the seed phrase and store the encrypted file or text. Whatever key you used to encrypt it should then be stored on paper separately, otherwise you are relying entirely on your memory for your back up.