Best Place To Store Your Seed?

[jerry0]

HCP to confirm... say your passphrase was georgelikesjuice59


Someone has access to your seed.  But when they type it in.. it shows a tiny amount of coins there as the hidden wallet with most of the coins is in the passphrase wallet.  But that person, if they think you have more coins in the hidden wallet with that passphrase, it would take them 241 days to brute force that passphrase?  But you said they have to rent those servers you mentioned so how much would that cost them?


But could they already have the equipment for that?

[HCP]

HCP to confirm... say your passphrase was georgelikesjuice59

Someone has access to your seed.  But when they type it in.. it shows a tiny amount of coins there as the hidden wallet with most of the coins is in the passphrase wallet.  But that person, if they think you have more coins in the hidden wallet with that passphrase, it would take them 241 days to brute force that passphrase?  But you said they have to rent those servers you mentioned so how much would that cost them?

But could they already have the equipment for that?

No, it would take 241 if they only use one "p3.16xlarge" instance... if they spun up 2, it would potentially halve the time required to bruteforce the password... if they spun up 10, it could be as low as ~24 days.

They could have the equipment, but it is expensive. Renting seems to be the "cheaper" option, but I think the cheapest one run at around ~$5/hr.

The point of the story is that using "words" is not the best idea, unless you're going to be using a lot of them (like 12/24 )... random mix of letters/numbers/symbols is definitely the preferred option, in my opinion.

But if you want pick 3 or 4 random words and chuck a number or 2 in there, then go for it... it'll likely stop all but the most determined (and wealthy) attackers from bruteforcing your password if the seed is compromised.

[jerry0]

Okay so in other words, unless they know for sure that person has a lot of hidden coins in their wallet, it wouldn't be even worth the money to then try to find out right?  I mean imagine they got the correct seed... and it shows say 0.8 btc... but they think there is more in a hidden wallet... but unless they are damn sure... it could even cost them money since now they could pay like a thousand dollars... then find out there is no btc in the hidden wallet right?


Well if renting is 5/hr... a day is 120.  Oh wait... then 241 days... would mean they would have to spend over 30,000 USD then right?  Thus it wouldn't be worth it unless they are hundred percent sure about this?  I had no idea about the equipment whether buying or renting.

[HCP]

While those numbers are true for today's prices and equipment... what if BTC moons to like US$20K in the next 6-12 months... and NVidia bring out faster GPUs? Even a hidden 2 BTC would be starting to look attractive.

Don't plan for today... plan for the future.

[bob123]

Well if renting is 5/hr... a day is 120.  Oh wait... then 241 days... would mean they would have to spend over 30,000 USD then right? 

No.
They could guess the correct passphrase in the fest 3 seconds.

Bruteforcing is like gambling. You might win with the first try, or you'd need to exhaust the whole space.
On average, you "win" after searching 50% of the space.


By the way, if your mnemonic code gets stolen and the passphrase is being bruteforced.. what stops you from moving your coins? Does it really matter whether a person needs 240 days or 240 years to bruteforce it?

Don't overcomplicate your setup.

[Pmalek]

Safe deposit boxes tend to be safe.  But I heard of few cases where burglars drilled in into it.  Also, when there are bank robberies, how safe are the customer deposit boxes though?  But then again, if you have one bank deposit on one bank... the other say much farther way, that is generally safe right?  I mean imagine having 2 safe deposit boxes in 2 different banks but say they were just a short few blocks walk from each other... surely you wouldn't feel that comfortable right?

If you have two deposit boxes in two different banks you always have to take into consideration the following scenario.

A big petrol tanker stops at a red light at the corner of where your first bank is. What the driver doesn't know is that the tank is leaking petrol and an event is about to happen that will change his life forever. An unsuspecting man smoking a cigarette walks by. He is still drunk from the night before. Unaware of the smell of fuel, he throws his cigarette butt under the big truck. Within a few seconds, the fuel catches fire. The driver of the truck notices the flames, he leaves his truck and runs off. A huge explosion happens that destroys part of the bank where the safety deposit boxes are located. Luckily nobody died, but your seed phrase has been lost in the rumble.

On the opposite end of town, underground waters are discovered under a building complex. A huge crater opens in the ground causing the west wing of the building to collapse and disappear in the water stream. Unfortunately, the west wing is where your bank was located and all safety deposit boxes have been destroyed by the flood.

Both copies of your seed are now gone. Now what do you do? I bet you never considered this threat, did you? 
Jerry just use one of the methods suggested to you here, or in any of the threads you created last year and try to relax a bit.   

[HCP]

Don't overcomplicate your setup.

This --^

...trolololololololol...
I bet you never considered this threat, did you?  

Please don't feed the paranoia... I really feel like we're close to a breakthrough

[PrimeNumber7]

Safe deposit boxes tend to be safe.  But I heard of few cases where burglars drilled in into it.  Also, when there are bank robberies, how safe are the customer deposit boxes though?  But then again, if you have one bank deposit on one bank... the other say much farther way, that is generally safe right?  I mean imagine having 2 safe deposit boxes in 2 different banks but say they were just a short few blocks walk from each other... surely you wouldn't feel that comfortable right?

If you have two deposit boxes in two different banks you always have to take into consideration the following scenario.

A big petrol tanker stops at a red light at the corner of where your first bank is. What the driver doesn't know is that the tank is leaking petrol and an event is about to happen that will change his life forever. An unsuspecting man smoking a cigarette walks by. He is still drunk from the night before. Unaware of the smell of fuel, he throws his cigarette butt under the big truck. Within a few seconds, the fuel catches fire. The driver of the truck notices the flames, he leaves his truck and runs off. A huge explosion happens that destroys part of the bank where the safety deposit boxes are located. Luckily nobody died, but your seed phrase has been lost in the rumble.

On the opposite end of town, underground waters are discovered under a building complex. A huge crater opens in the ground causing the west wing of the building to collapse and disappear in the water stream. Unfortunately, the west wing is where your bank was located and all safety deposit boxes have been destroyed by the flood.

Both copies of your seed are now gone. Now what do you do? I bet you never considered this threat, did you? 
Jerry just use one of the methods suggested to you here, or in any of the threads you created last year and try to relax a bit.   

In general, having a single 'offsite' backup is sufficient for most threat models.

While your scenario is possible, it is not common. Most threat models involve creating a new backup of your seed if one gets destroyed.

[HCP]

While your scenario is possible, it is not common. Most threat models involve creating a new backup of your seed if one gets destroyed.

Based on their last line:

Jerry just use one of the methods suggested to you here, or in any of the threads you created last year and try to relax a bit.   

I suspect that might have been a somewhat sarcastic reply from Pmalek, with a purposely ridiculous scenario... OP is a bit of an "over thinker" who seems to suffer from "analysis paralysis"... by which I mean they spend so much time dreaming up "...but what if?" scenarios that they never actually get around to taking concrete action to mitigate any of them

[jerry0]

Well with how much btc price has increased, I got to assume more people now are putting their seeds in bank safety deposit boxes and putting it in two pieces?  Thus at two different banks? 


But i got to assume people with a lot of money might be paying for multiple deposit boxes at multiple different banks?  Thus imagine having four different bank deposit boxes at all different banks... so in case something happens to one of the deposit boxes, then they are still safe because they have the backup?


Also i never had a safe deposit box but how often are those broken into?  Also if it does happen, the bank notifies you within a day or two at the most right?


I got to assume the Winklewoss twins probably have like over ten plus safe deposit boxes then right for multiple backups?  Then again if you do that, it exposes you more.  But all the safe deposit boxes need to be hit at around the same time though.


The other thing I thought was if you live in a luxury high rise buliding with security, then wouldn't that be really safe since keeping it in a safe deposit box in your apartment/condo would be extremely secure?  Like imaging living in the trump tower or one of those high rises in las vegas.  Wouldn't you feel very secure keeping your seed in a safe deposit box or even in your desk if you live in a high secured place like that?



But for regular people, wouldn't it make sense to have multiple deposit boxes?  I mean if you have 6 figures worth of crypto, wouldn't that be the point when you probably should do it with how much btc has increased?

[HCP]

What is with the obsession with safe deposit boxes? and also with what everyone else is doing?

You've been told repeatedly... figure out what your particular level of risk acceptance is and find a solution that matches that... safe deposit boxes aren't for everybody... and I would actually guess the vast majority of people don't actually use them... especially given that they are getting harder and harder to actually find (given banks keep closing branches and don't usually install safety deposit vaults in new branches etc)

I mean, the irony of using Bitcoin to get free of the traditional banking system... only to rely on (and pay!) the traditional banking system to secure your funds?

As for being broken into... safety deposit boxes are usually not in a publicly accessible area and generally require monitored access to open the locked storage compartment and will then generally provide a private area for you to place or retrieve items from the box itself.

This NY Times story from a couple of years ago indicates that out of 19000 bank robberies, over a number of years, in the US, only 44 involved safety deposit boxes...

Of the 19,000 bank robberies reported to the F.B.I. in the last five years, only 44 involved safe-deposit heists.

[PrimeNumber7]

What is with the obsession with safe deposit boxes? and also with what everyone else is doing?

You've been told repeatedly... figure out what your particular level of risk acceptance is and find a solution that matches that... safe deposit boxes aren't for everybody... and I would actually guess the vast majority of people don't actually use them... especially given that they are getting harder and harder to actually find (given banks keep closing branches and don't usually install safety deposit vaults in new branches etc)

I mean, the irony of using Bitcoin to get free of the traditional banking system... only to rely on (and pay!) the traditional banking system to secure your funds?

As for being broken into... safety deposit boxes are usually not in a publicly accessible area and generally require monitored access to open the locked storage compartment and will then generally provide a private area for you to place or retrieve items from the box itself.

This NY Times story from a couple of years ago indicates that out of 19000 bank robberies, over a number of years, in the US, only 44 involved safety deposit boxes...

Of the 19,000 bank robberies reported to the F.B.I. in the last five years, only 44 involved safe-deposit heists.

A safety deposit box heist is going to be a targeted attack. This means that someone needs to know that you specifically have a large amount of coin, and the specific location you are keeping your keys. The boxes are numbered, the names of their owners are not public information, and there are tens of thousands of banks in the US. This means if someone knows that [HCP's IRL name] has 100 BTC with a backup stored in a safety deposit box in Springfield, figuring out which bank your safety deposit box is located in will be difficult in itself.

[HCP]

All the stories I could find seemed to indicate that the safety deposit box heists weren't really targeted at all... thieves just broke into the vault and drilled as many boxes as they could and took anything and everything of value.

That being the case, I'm not even sure most thieves would see anything other than a notebook and just toss it in favour of taking cash, jewels and other assorted things that are obviously resellable etc.

But, given how "mainstream" Bitcoin has become... you never know... maybe the more astute thieves are on the lookout for 12/24 word seeds these days?

[PrimeNumber7]

All the stories I could find seemed to indicate that the safety deposit box heists weren't really targeted at all... thieves just broke into the vault and drilled as many boxes as they could and took anything and everything of value.

That being the case, I'm not even sure most thieves would see anything other than a notebook and just toss it in favour of taking cash, jewels and other assorted things that are obviously resellable etc.

But, given how "mainstream" Bitcoin has become... you never know... maybe the more astute thieves are on the lookout for 12/24 word seeds these days?

If you assume your safety deposit box will not be specifically targeted by thieves, a countermeasure to guard against this kind of theft could include putting your seed card inside a book, or writing one seed word on random pages in a book. A thief may gain access to your seed, but probably wouldn't realize what it is before you have time to realize your seed is potentially compromised, giving you time to move coin out of private keys derived by the seed.

[dkbit98]

Why is this topic in hardware wallets section?
Maybe OP jerry0 spammer created so many topics in one minute time that he got confused  

I know some people have seed word backup placed in regular envelope with instructions and then given to lawyer with other documents as a part of his will, so in case of death his family will get them with all instructions.
Worst thing you can do is to keep seed words in your head depending on your fragile memory and bringing Bitcoins with you in your grave and afterlife.

People also make interesting things for hiding hardware wallets, something like this Beethoven Trezor Safe figure, but seed words are always more important than device itself:

[HCP]

Why is this topic in hardware wallets section?
Maybe OP jerry0 spammer created so many topics in one minute time that he got confused 

Most likely because it was in relation to storing his Nano S seed after he moved from Electrum. I would agree that he is quite prolific... but not really a spammer in the traditional sense. The guy just has a lot of questions a lot of anxiety/paranoia.

[aoluain]

Why is this topic in hardware wallets section?
Maybe OP jerry0 spammer created so many topics in one minute time that he got confused  

I know some people have seed word backup placed in regular envelope with instructions and then given to lawyer with other documents as a part of his will, so in case of death his family will get them with all instructions.
Worst thing you can do is to keep seed words in your head depending on your fragile memory and bringing Bitcoins with you in your grave and afterlife.

People also make interesting things for hiding hardware wallets, something like this Beethoven Trezor Safe figure, but seed words are always more important than device itself:

yup, the seedwords are indeed more important than the device.
Personally I use stainless steel plate and attach that to some
structral element of my house, not a piece of furniture.
In a disaster this would survive, just have to look for it among
the ashes/debris.

-snip-

I use a very DIY cost effective solution myself although its not really portable.
SS plate 4mm thick with the works punched into the surface then screwed
to a roof joist facing in.

[jerry0]

How is a stainless steel plate that good of an idea?  Thing is if a thief sees it or gets access to it, they might be able to figure it out on what it is... don't you agree on this?  I mean if you could hide it somewhere very well, i agree it would be a good idea.  But i mean don't you agree your seed being on this plate as oppose to say in a notebook would draw a lot less attention?


Also i gotta wonder... wouldn't another location be assuming you live in a house... and have a basement... you put it in safe on the ground underneath your basement?  Or that is horrible idea if natural disaster happens?  Would you feel safer putting your seed in a safe that you install under your basement in the ground?  Or just putting the seed on piece of paper or notebook and putting it inside your desk drawer?

[bob123]

How is a stainless steel plate that good of an idea?  Thing is if a thief sees it or gets access to it, they might be able to figure it out on what it is... don't you agree on this?

The main point of such a plate is not that a thief won't recognize it as a mnemonic code. The strength is that it survives a house fire and/or flood.
It is about the safety here, not the security.

I mean if you could hide it somewhere very well, i agree it would be a good idea. 

You are not supposed to put it on your kitchen table tho.

[Pmalek]

How is a stainless steel plate that good of an idea?  Thing is if a thief sees it or gets access to it, they might be able to figure it out on what it is... don't you agree on this?

The thief can't possible know what it is. It's just a metal plate screwed to a roof to him. The words aren't visible because they are facing the joist. it's very unlikely that a thief would go to your attic to inspect the roof joists and unscrew every little part, or take a ladder to your roof. It's a great solution really.