Best Place To Store Your Seed?

[Pmalek]

I have a hard time to figure jerry0 out sometimes. On one hand he wants to use 4 banks to split his seed in various deposit boxes. But on the other hand he completely forgets about the years and dozes of posts of advice he was given about how to store sensitive data, so he asks if he should keep it in Dropbox or his email client.

After so many threads of his, I think it would be fair to ask him to name 10 things he has learned about Bitcoin, Ledger, seeds, security of funds, etc. Are we just wasting time replying to you or should you be ignored

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[Dabs]

Nah, don't ignore newbies. He can pay for 4 bank boxes if you like, I can't even bring myself personally to buy a hardware wallet but did invest in getting air gapped general purpose tablets / laptops / computers.

But to answer the original question, store seeds where you can access them, where only you can access them, and where they won't get destroyed. There are already 20 different ideas presented here from paper wallets to metal etch engravings. Choose your poison.

[jerry0]

Well Winklewoss Twins apparently store their seed in safe deposit places throughout the US.  Obviously they have a ton of money.  But still if you have like a decent amount, wouldnt it make sense to store it that way?


Example if someone has say 50k worth of crypto... storing it in safe deposit boxes cost 60 dollars a year probably for each box... wouldn't that make sense in that you are paying less than l% a year of your crypto?
Imagine someone with l00k worth of crypto or more.  I dont know how storing it in bank safe deposit boxes... the seed ... in multiple boxes at different locations... is a bad idea.  I mean if the manager or employee somehow got into it... they only got half the seed etc.


In a way its like paying for the bank safe deposit boxes are like insurance so to speak?

[Pmalek]

jerry0 you are unbelievable, you know that? . You really are a big enigma to me.

You can divide your seed any way you want and store each word in a separate state in the US if you think that is the safest thing to do. But how convenient would that be when you need to restore your wallet? Find something that works for you and is a good compromise between security and ease of access. If you want to pay $50 for 4 safety deposit boxes in 4 different banks, that is entirely up to you. I know I wouldn't.

There isn't a magic number that justifies if you should do what the Winklewoss twins do or not. If they lose 50 BTC tomorrow, maybe they wont even notice it. If you lose 1, it might be devastating for you.         

[PrimeNumber7]

multiple safe deposit boxes

This is one option. If someone were to get ahold of 1/2 or 1/4 of your seed, for all intents and purposes, the attacker will not be able to know your entire seed without additional knowledge. Most safety deposit boxes require two keys, one that is unique to the customer and one that is universal and that bank employees have possession of. Safety deposit boxes can be drilled/broken into, however, to do this requires a lot of paperwork, that multiple people agree that bank procedures are being followed, and notification of the customer. Safety deposit boxes can also be broken into during a heist, but this would result in notification to the customer.

Safety deposit boxes are generally cheap, usually no more than $20-$30 per year for a minimum-sized box. If your threat model involves portions of your seed being stolen/compromised, you will want to keep multiple copies of each portion of your seed in different banks. So if your seed is split into 4 pieces, you will need 8, or possibly 12 safety deposit boxes. It is up to the individual to determine if this cost is worth the value of security.

[Dabs]

I'd go with multisig. That way, you can store one seed in one bank box. One at home. One somewhere else. You could also pay for multi-sig services or apps like Casa or Unchained or Spectre or one of those other ones.

[HCP]

Well Winklewoss Twins apparently store their seed in safe deposit places throughout the US.

Are you one of the Winklewoss Twins? If not, then it really makes no difference what they do... I see "famous"™ people do <insert activity here> all the time... it doesn't mean I would or should do the same... you know why? Because I have a brain and can think for myself.

While it doesn't hurt to consider what other folks are doing... basing every single decision on what someone else is doing is not living your live... it's attempt to live other peoples lives. This usually ends sub-optimally... because you're not those other people... and most likely not in the same situation as them.

[Dabs]

Are you one of the Winklewoss Twins? If not, then it really makes no difference what they do... I see "famous"™ people do <insert activity here> all the time... it doesn't mean I would or should do the same... you know why? Because I have a brain and can think for myself.

While it doesn't hurt to consider what other folks are doing... basing every single decision on what someone else is doing is not living your live... it's attempt to live other peoples lives. This usually ends sub-optimally... because you're not those other people... and most likely not in the same situation as them.

The idea maybe comes from "if you want to be a champion, train like a champion." but misinterpret it, for example, the bodybuilders like to try and copy Arnold Schwarzenegger or Ronnie Coleman or whoever Mr. Olympia champion that do 20 sets of 20 reps of unknown poundages / kilos of weights with a full circuit of machines 7 days a week, but forget to mention that all of them took performance enhancing drugs.

For most people, store your seed in a relatively safe place you can access but not out in the open. This could be a separate spot in your house, a bank safe deposit box, a friend/neighbor/relatives house, a storage facility ... buried in your backyard or basement.

Written down on paper is fine, but as soon as you can, upgrade it to metal. There's not much point in going through wood or plastic. Paper can be protected but because it is easily destroyed by water or fire or getting crushed, metal is a good option.

People store important papers all the time. Do the same thing as you do for your important paper documents, passports, birth certificates, id cards or naturalization papers, printed photos, tax papers, wills, social security or social insurance cards, marriage/divorce papers, power of attorney papers, benefits/disability, professional appraisals, deeds, financial documents, and your emergency stash of cash (for when the banks and/or ATMs are not working.)

If you have metals like gold or silver, you'd probably store them there too.

[jerry0]

Yes i know if winklewoss does it, you don't need to.  But i mean if you put in multiple safe deposit boxes... the seed broken in half for example and make two copies each and thus multiple safe deposit boxes at bank, you don't need to be concerned about theft or fire at your home etc.  I mean doesn't that pretty much make it ideal for just about everyone?


The only annoying thing seem to be if you don't have your seed with you, you need to make a trip to the bank and get the two safe deposit boxes etc.


But have there been cases where people seed been exposed when they put it in safe deposit box?  Of course i mean split it up into two pieces or even three pieces.  Because if someone like even bank manager/employee had access to your box... they only have half the seed... they need the other one in your safe deposit box in another location etc.

[HCP]

Aside from the fact that trying to find banks/services that actually offer safety deposit boxes is getting harder and harder (most new bank branches being built don't include them, and a lot of older ones are being disestablished)... then sure... splitting up your seed and storing it all over the place is "one way" of securing your seed backup.

However, say that it is "pretty much ideal for just about everyone" is demonstrably false... what if you live in a country where the banking system doesn't have safety deposit boxes? Or you live in a sparsely populated area where there is only 1 bank within 200 miles of where you live? what if you don't trust banks? What if you read this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/business/safe-deposit-box-theft.html ?

There are literally infinite ways that one can store their seed backup phrase... using paper, using metal plates, using cryptosteel like devices... in one piece, in multi pieces... in plain text, or encrypted, or using shamir secret sharing methods... then factor in all the places you can store it... on a post-it note on your monitor, in your drawer, under you bed, in a book, in a safe, buried in your garden, in your brain... etc etc etc.


As you have been told M.U.L.T.I.P.L.E. times... find a method that YOU are comfortable with and allows you to sleep at night... then use that. Don't worry so much about what anyone else is doing.

We have no idea about your personal situation, how much crypto you're holding, what sort of area you live in, what your associates are like etc... so we cannot accurately assess the "risks" that you have... only you can do that... so assess your risks, and then take steps to mitigate them.

If that means you think you need to break your seed in multiple pieces and store it all over the country... then so be it... go and do that. Asking rando's on the internet if that is a good plan is a complete and utter waste of time.

Is breaking it into multiple pieces and storing it all over the country "secure"... yes... should you do it? only you can answer that.

[Pmalek]

Let me tell you where the safety deposit boxes are located in a bank near my home. To enter the bank, you have to go through two doors. When you go through the first one, you have ATMs on your left side and on the right side is a wall with safety deposit boxes. Everything is in glass, so everyone from the street and the clients in the bank can see you open your box. There is absolutely no privacy. Not even a desk that you can place your safety deposit box on like you see in the movies. Take things like that into consideration as well.     

[jerry0]

Yes i know getting bank safe deposit boxes are much harder.  But if you have access to it or have someone close with it... then wouldn't it make sense though? 



Yea... i get what you mean if you live in a country with no safe deposit banks and you are far away from it.  I mean like imagine you are in the US for example and live in a big city, like Los Angeles, Texas, Florida etc.  Thus the cities with a lot of the major banks like bank of america, chase etc.  If you had those safe deposit boxes already... wouldn't you put it there?



Yea i know there are tons of ways to store your seed phrase.  But theres always negatives of each one.  Paper... well theft or fire.  With cryptosteel... what if theft and someone finds it?  I mean i seen how it looks... that looks like its something important even if i don't know what crypto is.  My method of storing it online in password manager like keepass/lastpass seem to have most people against it which i understand. 



But if you do that... and store it in the cloud... gmail or dropbox... well someone still needs to hack your email/password... and then your password for your password manager.  Now if you get malware/keylogger, then I know you are screwed right?  So its like you need to make sure you never download anything you don't know on your computer with password manager in it.... right?   So its like any mistake like clicking on email phishing link could screw you up?  But i always hear people say clicking on link doesn't do anything... only if you download EXE file, then you are in trouble.  But don't you still need to open the EXE file?  So if you downloading EXE file but immediately cancel download, isn't that still okay?



Putting it out in the open like a monitor doesn't seem like good idea.  I think putting it where its not visible is the best way.  Also... in a safe?  That is probably the last place i would put it.  I mean any thief is out there looking for a safe.  I still don't understand why people buy a safe here.  I mean... unless the safe is well hidden, isn't safes in general bad? 



Yes i know everyone has a different personal situation.  But if you are from a big city with big banks and thus safe deposit boxes... isn't it wise to use those then?  Also what about people who travel quite a bit?  I mean, traveling with your seed on paper doesn't feel smart to me at all.  Its like you carrying everything on you with that piece of paper etc.



Well obviously i dont mean storing the seed in multiple cities over the country that would be insane.  I obviously mean like the same city etc.

[jerry0]

Okay those safe deposit boxes near you... I think those are extremely rare.  I heard of those but I rarely ever see those type of safe deposit boxes in any bank I go to... and I'm from a big city etc.  So I assume you are probably in a smaller city or town?  If so... then I could definitely see that.



I actually wouldn't feel safe having a safe deposit box at a small bank in a smaller town for some reason.  Feels like manager/employee could do things where its much harder to do in a big city bank right?  Like imagine a small name bank i never heard of in say iowa... vs say bank of america or chase in los angeles or dallas.  I mean... i don't think anyone in a bank of america branch in los angels or dallas that is manager/employee would risk doing something like this because they will get caught.  Would you agree on this?



Also, i know it depends on how much you have.  But if you have say l btc or around 50k, people wouldn't want to pay for two safe deposit boxes for the seed to protect that?  I mean its like 2% insurance or so if you think about it a year?  Like say a box cost you 60 a year etc.  Or would you say thats still too much?  I guess if people had like 100k worth of crypto, then it will be worth it?  At how much money would you say it would be stupid to not get two safe deposit boxes at two different banks to store your seed?  I got to assume at say around 250,000 usd, then its almost a no brainer? 

[Pmalek]

Yes i know getting bank safe deposit boxes are much harder.  But if you have access to it or have someone close with it... then wouldn't it make sense though? 

If you think it makes sense for you, go ahead. HCP already gave you an appropriate answer.

If you had those safe deposit boxes already... wouldn't you put it there?

No, I would not.

But if you do that... and store it in the cloud... gmail or dropbox... well someone still needs to hack your email/password... and then your password for your password manager.  Now if you get malware/keylogger, then I know you are screwed right?  So its like you need to make sure you never download anything you don't know on your computer with password manager in it.... right?

Are you forgetting that online services and websites get hacked and databases get breached? You are only focusing on what you do. Storing sensitive information online is dangerous because if their databases were to be breached, hackers would gain access to the files. People who lost crypto they stored on various exchanges also didn't lose it because they downloaded malware. They lost their coins because the exchanges got hacked or exit scammed. The user's mistake was trusting them with storing their crypto safely.

I still don't understand why people buy a safe here.  I mean... unless the safe is well hidden, isn't safes in general bad?

Sure, whatever makes you sleep at night. They are awful! 

Yes i know everyone has a different personal situation.  But if you are from a big city with big banks and thus safe deposit boxes... isn't it wise to use those then?

You already asked that in the first couple of sentences of your post, why are you doing it again? 

Also what about people who travel quite a bit?  I mean, traveling with your seed on paper doesn't feel smart to me at all.  Its like you carrying everything on you with that piece of paper etc.

Why would you travel with your seed in the first place? Where is the logic in that? If you need or want to spend crypto while you are on holiday, get a non-custodial software or mobile wallet, top it up with whatever you think you would need from your Nano S storage, and go on your trip. 

I actually wouldn't feel safe having a safe deposit box at a small bank in a smaller town for some reason.  Feels like manager/employee could do things where its much harder to do in a big city bank right?  Like imagine a small name bank i never heard of in say iowa... vs say bank of america or chase in los angeles or dallas.  I mean... i don't think anyone in a bank of america branch in los angels or dallas that is manager/employee would risk doing something like this because they will get caught.  Would you agree on this?

That's a weird assumption. Are you saying there is no crime or criminals in big cities and all the crooks live in small towns?

Also, i know it depends on how much you have.  But if you have say l btc or around 50k, people wouldn't want to pay for two safe deposit boxes for the seed to protect that?  I mean its like 2% insurance or so if you think about it a year?  Like say a box cost you 60 a year etc.  Or would you say thats still too much?  I guess if people had like 100k worth of crypto, then it will be worth it?  At how much money would you say it would be stupid to not get two safe deposit boxes at two different banks to store your seed?  I got to assume at say around 250,000 usd, then its almost a no brainer?

It doesn't matter what other people think. You have to start reading and understanding the things we write to you. Whether or not 1 BTC, $50k, or $250k is a lot of money to me has absolutely nothing to do with you. Protect your assets anyway you think is necessary. 

[jerry0]

I thought about one major issue with storing seed in multiple safe deposit boxes even broken in two parts.


If the government were to for some reason seize your bank accounts... then aren't you basically screwed then?  Like you get subpeona or something like that on your safe deposit boxes?


So wouldn't one way against this in case of something like this would be... seeds in safe deposit boxes... broken in two parts... but making sure you have a passphrase to it... and remembering it but also storing that on a password manager in the cloud?  I mean as long as you remember your passphrase or your email/cloud username/password and password manager... you are fine.  But the issue here is if that is your only copy in the bank safe deposit box... then that won't work right?  Since if you have seed in your house, well they could possibly seize that too?  Or its mainly bank account and bank safe deposit boxes when you hear cases like this?

[HCP]

Maybe get in contact with BurtW who got raided and had assets, bitcoins and other things seized... and ask him how it all went down.

Seems like they pretty much tore his house apart. I would guess nothing would be safe if they decide to come after you... bank accounts, safety deposit boxes, everything in your house... anything attached to you/your id is likely "fair game" when the govt decided you're one of the "bad guys"™

[PrimeNumber7]

I thought about one major issue with storing seed in multiple safe deposit boxes even broken in two parts.


If the government were to for some reason seize your bank accounts... then aren't you basically screwed then?  Like you get subpeona or something like that on your safe deposit boxes?


So wouldn't one way against this in case of something like this would be... seeds in safe deposit boxes... broken in two parts... but making sure you have a passphrase to it... and remembering it but also storing that on a password manager in the cloud?  I mean as long as you remember your passphrase or your email/cloud username/password and password manager... you are fine.  But the issue here is if that is your only copy in the bank safe deposit box... then that won't work right?  Since if you have seed in your house, well they could possibly seize that too?  Or its mainly bank account and bank safe deposit boxes when you hear cases like this?

I would not use a passphrase that is not written down. Doing so would result in you not actually having a complete backup of your seed, and you would be risking the loss of funds if you forget your passphrase.

If you split up your seed in three safety deposit boxes, each could have every 3rd word of your seed, and you could have one decoy seed with some coin in it that is "in order" the words contained in each box.

So your real seed would be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Your seed would be stored as follows:

Box    1.  2.  3.
Word. 1.  2.  3.
          4.  5.  6.
          7.  8.  9. 

However, you would also have some "decoy" coin in the following seed: 1 4 7 2 5 8 3 6 9

If the government wants to get your seed, they have guns and can put you in jail under certain circumstances. When thinking about how to best protect your seed from the government, I would refer you to a $5 wrench attack

[o_e_l_e_o]

I would not use a passphrase that is not written down.

Absolutely. All your passphrases should be backed up on paper securely but separately from your seed phrase and from each other.

If you split up your seed in three safety deposit boxes, each could have every 3rd word of your seed

If you want to split your seed phrase, this is a bad way to do it for two reasons. First of all, you have no redundancy in that set up. If you lose a share, then you have lost all the data on that share and you cannot recover it. To prevent this you would need to make two copies of each share, but that also necessitates renting double the number of boxes. Secondly, each share provides some info about your seed phrase. If you split your seed phrase in to three, then two shares is enough for an attacker to brute force the remaining words.

A better option is to use a n-of-m Shamir's set up. That way if you lose a share all the data can still be recovered from the remaining shares, and if the attacker finds anything less than n number of shares, they gain no information at all about your seed phrase (or even that the encoded information is a seed phrase at all).

However, you would also have some "decoy" coin in the following seed: 1 4 7 2 5 8 3 6 9

That's an interesting idea, but would obviously require some brute forcing to find a seed phrase which still had a valid checksum when arranged in a different order.

[Pmalek]

I agree with you that Shamir's Secret Sharing is the better scheme in this scenario. But regarding the part of your post I quoted below:

If you want to split your seed phrase, this is a bad way to do it for two reasons. First of all, you have no redundancy in that set up. If you lose a share, then you have lost all the data on that share and you cannot recover it. To prevent this you would need to make two copies of each share, but that also necessitates renting double the number of boxes. Secondly, each share provides some info about your seed phrase. If you split your seed phrase in to three, then two shares is enough for an attacker to brute force the remaining words.

If an attacker can brute force the rest of your recovery phrase by finding 2/3 of it, you could do the same if you lose 1/3 of it. Unless of course you are unlucky and you lose 2 parts of your seed. That would make the success rate of a brute force negligible.

[Dabs]

Safes at home may be bad. But I got one for real cheap from Amazon. I find it pretty awesome. You need either a 6 digit code to open it, or some extra large drill or crowbar. When it's bolted to the floor or a wall, it's a little more difficult to remove the whole thing as you need to open it first or tear the metal apart. It's also not water proof or fire proof (or not for very long anyway), but it's still a semi sealed metal box.