Small miner viability question: USB-C bus power?

[sidehack]

Hello, guys. Got a quick question.

If I were to build a USB-C bus-powered miner would anyone buy it?

What I'm thinking is a small self-contained device, probably around 8cm cube, that takes in 12V/5A from a USB-C PD bus and therefore doesn't need a brick.

Problem is, I don't know how common it is to have a host capable of doing that. A brief glance seems to indicate most motherboards with USB-C just tie it to a 5V/3A dummy bus and have no support for PD protocol, so it looks like this device would not be compatible with the majority of available hosts.

I have no USB-C equipped devices. My newest computers came from scrapyards. I have no direct experience with that system. But the idea's been tossed around long enough, and goodness the USB-C PD standard has been out for years. Is it widely available enough to merit the effort of designing and building a product for it, or is everyone stuck on 5V/3A which is still stickminer territory?

[1714986197]

1714986197

[1714986197]

1714986197

[1714986197]

1714986197

[1714986197]

1714986197

[philipma1957]

I have over 30 mobos many have usb c. , but I would need to know which ones have real usb-c.

If you give me a day to really look at my mobos I can see which have it.

I can send a 'real' one to you to play with.

I have this one in mind
a b450 for ryzen cpus
a b470 for intel cpus

I can check them asap

I have this new in box. looking at it now

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-1x

it says this

Chipset:
1 x USB Type-C™ port on the back panel, with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support

manual is here

https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_b450-aorus-pro-wifi_1101_e.pdf

the ryzen mobo is cheap to middle priced  129 https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-b450-aorus-pro-wifi/p/N82E16813145082?

going to find most up to date intel I have

this is my newest intel mobo it is a b460

https://www.provantage.com/asus-pro-b460m-c-csm~7ASUS3LV.htm

cheaper at 98 Bucks

it does not appear to have one

so while I have a ryzen that would work I may not have an intel

what chip will the gear mine with?

[sidehack]

I'm not convinced that motherboard would do the trick either. The manual has zero information on USB power handling. The standard it references for the Type-C port is mostly for data rates. Newegg's product page has no pertinent info.

But it does confirm something I've been noticing more lately, and that's that apparently system builders are now addicted to shoving RGB LEDs into every frickin' thing. The manual has more data on how to make things glow rainbow than anything else, which is, quite frankly, so useless it actually circles back around to negative utility.

The chip would be whatever chip I want to build it around. Right now the question has nothing to do with the capability of the miner itself. I'm solely interested in whether or not enough host devices exist in the wild with 12V PD support that there'd even be a market for it.

[philipma1957]

I have a lot of ryzen motherboards.

4  four with 3900 cpus these are reasonably priced mobos in the 150 to 209 range. they can use a ryzen 3700 which a lot of people have they can use 3800 and 3900

2  with threadripper. these are simply too expensive and there are not a lot of them.

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570-phantom-gaming-4s/p/N82E16813157915? a no go

I have this one.  this one costs 185
1 x USB 3.2 Gen2 Type-C Port (10Gb/s) (ReDriver) (Supports ESD Protection). claims more data
and this one

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-x570m-pro4/p/N82E16813157887?Item=N82E16813157887. checking it.  it does have a c port.

still checking

manual link
https://download.asrock.com/Manual/X570M%20Pro4.pdf

https://download.asrock.com/Manual/X570MPro4.pdf. this appears to be a no go

Decided to check my high mobo for the threadripper this is 1300+400 = 1700 for cpu and mobo minimum!

AMD Ryzen™ Threadripper™ Processors :
4 x USB 3.2 Gen 2 port(s) (4 at back panel, , 3 x Type-A+1 x Type-C)

so has a type c

and an  - Ai Charger   what ever that is.

manual

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketTRX4/PRIME_TRX40-PRO_S/E16304_PRIME_TRX40-PRO_S_UM_WEB.pdf

I think your good idea may not find a lot of good mobos.

[gt_addict]

I have two USB-C Gen2 ports on my Z370-i but doesn’t say anywhere in the manual that they provide PD protocol. Just the increased transfer speed 

[bmoscato]

I just picked up a ASUS TUF X570 Gaming PLUS WIFI System Board and it has Next-Gen Connectivity: Dual PCIe 4.0 M.2 and USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-A /Type-C... that said, I have no idea what that means.

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/TUF-GAMING-X570-PLUS-WI-FI/

[NotFuzzyWarm]

My guess is that high power over USB-C is mostly an optional setup rather like PoE is for network devices - a special hub will be needed that can supply the higher voltage & power.

In a way I can understand the lack of mobo's with built-in PD bus - no liability for failures caused by non-compliant devices plugged into the USB-C port going 'poof' or worse. Keep it at 5v and even the dumbest charger/device should be happy...

[philipma1957]

My guess is that high power over USB-C is mostly an optional setup rather like PoE is for network devices - a special hub will be needed that can supply the higher voltage & power.

In a way I can understand the lack of mobo's with built-in PD bus - no liability for failures caused by non-compliant devices plugged into the USB-C port going 'poof' or worse. Keep it at 5v and even the dumbest charger/device should be happy...

I spent all day looking and even with 500usd + mobos no luck.

I agree with your take on it.

I FOUND  some mobos can use ai charging software (Asus) but it seems capped at 18 watts.

[sidehack]

There aren't a lot of decent hubs either, really. Most USB-C "hubs" I could find split it out into several USB-A, HDMI, ethernet, a card reader and who knows what else.

Three or four years ago when this standard was rolling out, all kinds of people asked if I'd build a miner that could use it. Looks like there's still no good reason to because nothing supports the portions I'd require. Which sucks because it could be a pretty decent device.

[Philipma1957cellphone]

There aren't a lot of decent hubs either, really. Most USB-C "hubs" I could find split it out into several USB-A, HDMI, ethernet, a card reader and who knows what else.

Three or four years ago when this standard was rolling out, all kinds of people asked if I'd build a miner that could use it. Looks like there's still no good reason to because nothing supports the portions I'd require. Which sucks because it could be a pretty decent device.

Yeah if the port could feed 40 watts non stop it would be pretty good.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Poking around amazon for "usb-c PD" brings up several chargers & power sources such as this from Anker but nothing that is also a data hub... That despite this USB-C PD standard mentioning use with HDD's & printers implying not just supplying power to them but also being used for data over the same cable. Go fig...

What is interesting that in 20v output mode USB-C from a wall wart is good for up to 100w which is how it powers the newer laptops and tablets. Lenovo has been doing that for a couple years on their tablets, even those using micro USB-B connectors. My Yoga tablet wall wart outputs 22V when powering the tablet but drops to a safe 5v up to 3A when connected to charge a 'normal' usb device like a phone.

Well, usually drops to 5v: I did once have a vape battery go Dragon mode on me when charging with it. Worked fine many times and then 1 day - FOOM! a 2 foot flame shot out of the battery for about 2 sec followed by release of all the Majik Smoke. My guess is that the charging dongle failed delivering full power to the battery. Just very glad it was sitting on a solid surface away from anything easily ignited...

[sidehack]

Wonder what it would take to build a USB Type C hub with data and PD. Might have to do a bit of research on this. Be interesting if it's possible to, say, grab a USB2/3.1 hub and line up a PD controller alongside each output port that ties to per-port adjustable bucks coming off a MeanWell 24V PSU. Surely it's more complex than that.

[mikeywith]

... or is everyone stuck on 5V/3A which is still stickminer territory?

That seems like it, most USB C ports I have seen are only for data transfer, they don't even support video output, there might be a mobo or two that support both but I am pretty sure they are pretty limited and can't be targeted as potential clients for your miners.

Wonder what it would take to build a USB Type C hub with data and PD...

That could work, althought the cost of that thing might be a bit too much, another potential problem is that this will be capped by the power source, many PD adaptors can do up to 20v/5a but that doesn't mean all devices you plug it to will be able to provide that.

[sidehack]

Video is unnecessary. Only data and PD. Not supporting video is fairly irrelevant.

What do you mean, capped by the power source? It *is* the power source. "all devices you plug into it" won't need to provide anything. They'd be loads. I wonder how much of a market there is for a PD hub that still does data. Seems like something like that should exist, if only because it'd be awful handy to be able to have devices that use USB PD for brickless power like what's been talked about but apparently never addressed for the last few years. Might have to add that to the list of projects to accomplish eventually.

[philipma1957]

Video is unnecessary. Only data and PD. Not supporting video is fairly irrelevant.

What do you mean, capped by the power source? It *is* the power source. "all devices you plug into it" won't need to provide anything. They'd be loads. I wonder how much of a market there is for a PD hub that still does data. Seems like something like that should exist, if only because it'd be awful handy to be able to have devices that use USB PD for brickless power like what's been talked about but apparently never addressed for the last few years. Might have to add that to the list of projects to accomplish eventually.

klintay had the nice 16 port with a meanwell psu inside of it.

they were pretty good with your sticks.

he had the silver model for usb 2 and a black model for usb 3

I wonder if a mixed port model say 4 ports usb 3 and 4 ports usb c would work.

meanwell has a 24 volt psu you would need a voltage converter to run the lower volted usb 3 ports

eyeboot is klintay's brand name for his company he Carries sidehack's hub


he has this hub which has a built in mean well 40 amp 5 volt psu

https://www.eyeboot.com/sipolar-20-port-usb3.html


I wonder if a hub with mixed ports. and this psu could work

https://www.trcelectronics.com/ecomm/pdf/hrpg200.pdf

it comes in various voltage ranges and is efficient the 24 volt model is 88% HRPG-200-24

8.4amps at 24volts = 201.6w

has volt adjustment 21.6 to 28.8v

you still need a way to insure proper volts to what ever device you plug into it.

If you have usb 3 jacks and usb c jacks  I wonder if it would make the build harder to do.

[DaveF]

There was some discussion on another board about this a while ago. A lot of tech people were worried about the quality of cables / quality of other things and the fact that such a large amount of power would be running next to data pins. As one person put it, one cheap cable bought at an airport shop and you get to see a fire at the hotel. You would have to build enough intelligence into it to prevent that.

-Dave

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Looking at the usb-c PD dev boards out there I am not seeing combined power & data from anyone. What's surprising is that the datasheets only talk about usb-c PD replacing power via barrel connector with zero mention of data. What the heck is the advantage of that? Only thing I get is 1 less component because no power jack.  Aside from that you are just replacing one brick with a different kind of one. This from Cypress Semi and this from Infineon are typical of what I've come across so far.

you still need a way to insure proper volts to what ever device you plug into it.

That is negotiated by the usb-c PD chip and the device you plug into it. The pd chip defaults to 5v out and only after handshake does it raise voltage out to whatever the connected device wants.

What *is* interesting is that the standard I linked to earlier says that usb-c PD is a 2-way connection - whatever is plugged in can be both a power sink and if needed become a power source. Think a battery pack: It can be connected to a hub for charging along with a spinner portable HD for data. When the drive needs power to spin up if the hub cannot supply it the battery pack will. Good talk about that is here.

re: safety, all of the pd chips I've looked at so far have comprehensive short circuit protection for both fire and data safety.

[mikeywith]

What do you mean, capped by the power source? It *is* the power source. "all devices you plug into it" won't need to provide anything. They'd be loads.

That's true in your specific case, I was taking about the general use of these PD adaptors since they are two-way connection like how NFW explained here:

What *is* interesting is that the standard I linked to earlier says that usb-c PD is a 2-way connection.

In other words, if you plug in your phone into your laptop or tablet, your phone can charge your laptop, but since your miners won't have any other source of power like battries or so, then please ignore this whole part.


What I don't understand about this whole PD protocol is the way it "negotiate" the voltage needed with the plugged in devices, in the article that NFW linked it says:

Allows low power cases such as headsets to negotiate for only the power they require.

We know that PD can output 5V, 9V, 12V, 15V, 20V, so without exchanging some sort of data/signal between the headsets and the USB PD, how is it possible that you can charge different devices which require different voltages?

How about using something like this and your miner has two USB ports, one for charging and another for data? or one USB port for charging and another ethernet port for data?

[sidehack]

mikeywith, I gotcha. I wasn't thinking a general case, but specifics of this device.

In the USB-C cable is a data pin outside the standard USB signals, used for initial power negotiation between the host and device. They negotiate which is the source and which is the sink at that moment, and what voltage and current levels are available and will be used.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Well now... This paper from DigiKey blows that idea out of the water. While it does not expressly say that PD and data xfr is not possible the paper again pushes the idea that USB-C PD ports are primarily going to be used only for power.

So, I take it that means that we will still need 2 cables to our power hungry devices - 1 USB-C PD for power, one USB-C for data. Pretty stupid if you ask me.