Broly46 (OP)
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October 27, 2020, 05:40:27 AM |
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Gold intrinsic values is gold mining from earth crust the man-power and their valuable life, the logistics of gold delivery.
Bitcoin intrinsic value is the mining rigs, the difficulty curve, the supply, the miner valuable life, the risk of delivery bitcoin to buyer without getting hacked.
What’s down joke intrinsic value? I think it’s backed by ever changing bluechips that won’t existed in the next tens or so years?
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Yogee
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October 27, 2020, 06:27:38 AM |
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I am not really into stocks but it's something about what's expected of the investment asset in the next few years. Where will the company stand and how much money they can make or dividends they can give to investors. That's the simplest way I can put it. There are tons of articles on the internet if you want to get more technical.
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exstasie
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October 27, 2020, 06:44:46 AM |
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Gold intrinsic values is gold mining from earth crust the man-power and their valuable life, the logistics of gold delivery.
Bitcoin intrinsic value is the mining rigs, the difficulty curve, the supply, the miner valuable life, the risk of delivery bitcoin to buyer without getting hacked.
What’s down joke intrinsic value? I think it’s backed by ever changing bluechips that won’t existed in the next tens or so years?
"Blue chips" and "ever changing" don't exactly go together. Something tells me Apple, Microsoft, Mcdonald's, and Coca-Cola will still exist in 10 years. ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) The Dow 30 doesn't have intrinsic value because it's an index. But you can calculate the intrinsic value of individual stocks. In fact, it's much easier to apply to stocks than BTC or gold because public companies have analyzable financials, cash flows, returns, etc. These are examples based on discounted cash flow analysis, P/E ratio, or asset-based valuation: Intrinsic value = (CF1)/(1 + r)^1 + (CF2)/(1 + r)^2 + (CF3)/(1 + r)^3 + ... + (CFn)/(1 + r)^n where
CF1 is cash flow in year 1, CF2 is cash flow in year 2, etc. r is the rate of return you could get by investing money elsewhere
Let's say you want to perform a discounted cash flow analysis for the stock of RoboBasketball, a fictional company that makes a remote-controlled drone that looks like a basketball (ticker: DUNK). You look at its current cash flow statement and see that it generated cash flow of $100 million over the last 12 months. Based on the company's growth prospects, you estimate that RoboBasketball's cash flow will grow by 5% annually. If you use a rate of return of 4%, the intrinsic value of RoboBasketball would be a little over $2.8 billion using discounted cash flows going out for 25 years. Intrinsic value = Earnings per share (EPS) x (1 + r) x P/E ratio where r = the expected earnings growth rate
Let's say that RoboBasketball generated earnings per share of $3.30 over the last 12 months. Assume that the company will be able to grow its earnings by around 12.5% over the next five years. Finally, let's suppose the stock currently has a P/E multiple of 35.5. Using these figures, RoboBasketball's intrinsic value is:
($3.30 per share) x (1 + 0.125) x 35.5 = $131.79 per share Intrinsic value = (Sum of a company's assets, both tangible and intangible) – (Sum of a company's liabilities)
What is RoboBasketball's intrinsic value using this approach? Let's assume the company's assets totaled $500 million. Its liabilities totaled $200 million. Subtracting the liabilities from the assets would give an intrinsic value of $300 million for the stock. https://www.fool.com/investing/how-to-invest/stocks/intrinsic-value/
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Broly46 (OP)
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October 27, 2020, 06:59:15 AM |
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Gold intrinsic values is gold mining from earth crust the man-power and their valuable life, the logistics of gold delivery.
Bitcoin intrinsic value is the mining rigs, the difficulty curve, the supply, the miner valuable life, the risk of delivery bitcoin to buyer without getting hacked.
What’s down joke intrinsic value? I think it’s backed by ever changing bluechips that won’t existed in the next tens or so years?
"Blue chips" and "ever changing" don't exactly go together. Something tells me Apple, Microsoft, Mcdonald's, and Coca-Cola will still exist in 10 years. ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) The Dow 30 doesn't have intrinsic value because it's an index. But you can calculate the intrinsic value of individual stocks. In fact, it's much easier to apply to stocks than BTC or gold because public companies have analyzable financials, cash flows, returns, etc. These are examples based on discounted cash flow analysis, P/E ratio, or asset-based valuation: Intrinsic value = (CF1)/(1 + r)^1 + (CF2)/(1 + r)^2 + (CF3)/(1 + r)^3 + ... + (CFn)/(1 + r)^n where
CF1 is cash flow in year 1, CF2 is cash flow in year 2, etc. r is the rate of return you could get by investing money elsewhere
Let's say you want to perform a discounted cash flow analysis for the stock of RoboBasketball, a fictional company that makes a remote-controlled drone that looks like a basketball (ticker: DUNK). You look at its current cash flow statement and see that it generated cash flow of $100 million over the last 12 months. Based on the company's growth prospects, you estimate that RoboBasketball's cash flow will grow by 5% annually. If you use a rate of return of 4%, the intrinsic value of RoboBasketball would be a little over $2.8 billion using discounted cash flows going out for 25 years. Intrinsic value = Earnings per share (EPS) x (1 + r) x P/E ratio where r = the expected earnings growth rate
Let's say that RoboBasketball generated earnings per share of $3.30 over the last 12 months. Assume that the company will be able to grow its earnings by around 12.5% over the next five years. Finally, let's suppose the stock currently has a P/E multiple of 35.5. Using these figures, RoboBasketball's intrinsic value is:
($3.30 per share) x (1 + 0.125) x 35.5 = $131.79 per share Intrinsic value = (Sum of a company's assets, both tangible and intangible) – (Sum of a company's liabilities)
What is RoboBasketball's intrinsic value using this approach? Let's assume the company's assets totaled $500 million. Its liabilities totaled $200 million. Subtracting the liabilities from the assets would give an intrinsic value of $300 million for the stock. https://www.fool.com/investing/how-to-invest/stocks/intrinsic-value/The researcher believe intrinsic value is the underlying value of an items, it’s said the items will always return to its underlying value after a prolonged period, but if down jokes has no intrinsic value, then what give it’s underlying value? What’s the future hold for down jones without an intrinsic value?
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Broly46 (OP)
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October 27, 2020, 07:01:56 AM |
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I am not really into stocks but it's something about what's expected of the investment asset in the next few years. Where will the company stand and how much money they can make or dividends they can give to investors. That's the simplest way I can put it. There are tons of articles on the internet if you want to get more technical.
The internet advocate it’s life changing experience, down jones make many people very wealthy, many people life changing to better, they invest for retirement that come to fruition all the time, everybody make money in down jokes, nobody will believe the soaring index make nobody rich.
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Upgrade00
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October 27, 2020, 08:05:53 AM |
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Bitcoin intrinsic value is the mining rigs, the difficulty curve, the supply, the miner valuable life, the risk of delivery bitcoin to buyer without getting hacked.
There is no fundamental metric with which to judge intrinsic value. While some of these factors you mentioned are qualities of Bitcoin, they are somewhat not constant. Also the cost of production does not translate to intrinsic value. The way I see it, assets like bitcoin represents different things to different people, so it's value is subjective. I am not really into stocks but it's something about what's expected of the investment asset in the next few years. Where will the company stand and how much money they can make or dividends they can give to investors.
This is the speculative value of the asset, intrinsic value is not expected, nor is it the profits for investors.
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October 27, 2020, 08:19:13 AM |
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The researcher believe intrinsic value is the underlying value of an items, it’s said the items will always return to its underlying value after a prolonged period, but if down jokes has no intrinsic value, then what give it’s underlying value? What’s the future hold for down jones without an intrinsic value?
There is no intrinsic value for Dow Jones or other equity indices because they measure stock markets. Equity indices can be created and abolished at regulated index providers’ will. That’s why equity indices get hit hard when most stocks in their market crash. The underlying value is the stocks themselves.
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mu_enrico
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October 27, 2020, 10:21:34 AM |
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You are confusing the term BOOK VALUE with INTRINSIC VALUE. Plus, intrinsic value is not a rigid/absolute term. It can mean many things. For example, Marxist lovers will think the intrinsic value is about labor (cost). While economists generally define intrinsic value as a value that can be measured objectively.
Anyway, about book value, corporations have fixed and current assets that can be measured objectively.
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October 27, 2020, 12:44:58 PM |
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Gold intrinsic values is gold mining from earth crust the man-power and their valuable life, the logistics of gold delivery.
So, what happens with a company that is involved in gold mining and it's listed on stock exchanges, like Glencore or Rio Tinto, do they have intrinsic value or not? Now speaking strictly of Dow, do the oil fields owned by Chevron have intrinsic value or not? But, as I always tell people that think something is worthless if you have some shares in those companies that you consider worthless I have no problem buying them a thousand for a satoshi! That aside I'm starting to get the feeling some people are going totally nuts, for them, this new so-called crypto-revolution means that everything that existed in the past was an illusion and it's going to be worthless, forget Coca-Cola or Amazon, westernunion and moneygram were supposed to be killed half a decade ago and they are still up and doing pretty good for themselves. For example, Marxist lovers will think the intrinsic value is about labor (cost).
Yeah, no wonder every single time they fail, they should start measuring it by multiplying the labor effort with an IQ score for a start.
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Salauddin1994
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October 27, 2020, 01:51:59 PM |
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The intrinsic value of a share of the down jones underlying value or the current value of any future cash flow with no protection expected is the exact discounted discount rate. In order to get insights from comparative firms that differ with comparative assessment forms internal assessment simply assesses the underlying value of a particular business on its own most of the time novice investors get entangled in jargon words and get nothing out of them the same part goes for a distinct value.
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October 27, 2020, 04:21:44 PM |
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This is the reason why big names in nasdaq do not care about crypto all that much and some of them think we will go down in the end. How could you put mining rigs of bitcoin creation as value for bitcoin itself, but all those TRILLIONS of dollars worth of companies as nothing? All those workers, all those products, all those buildings, even the simplest hand held stuff have a huge value without even putting all the work into it, but somehow some graphic cards are more value than them?
If we keep this silly fight going instead of trying to get allied with wall street, we will be the ones who will lose, they constantly buy at cheap, they let you sell at low and basically work the media all the way they want just to kick you off from crypto, get friendship with them and maybe crypto small timers could survive.
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BrewMaster
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October 27, 2020, 05:09:33 PM |
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Gold intrinsic values is gold mining from earth crust the man-power and their valuable life, the logistics of gold delivery.
Bitcoin intrinsic value is the mining rigs, the difficulty curve, the supply, the miner valuable life, the risk of delivery bitcoin to buyer without getting hacked.
but you just explained production cost not intrinsic value. and neither gold nor bitcoin are not products being sold so that we can put their production cost + tax + profit as the final value. this definition specifically doesn't work for bitcoin because its production cost depends directly on its value not the other way around (thanks to the way difficulty is defined). for example you can spend a lot of money to recycle urine into drinkable water (what NASA does for astronauts) but you can't sell the water at a high price just because your production cost were high. value should only be defined by considering factors such as utility and scarcity. since we can't put numbers on it people end up using "production cost" which is wrong if you ask me. What’s down joke intrinsic value? I think it’s backed by ever changing bluechips that won’t existed in the next tens or so years?
it provides a good utility. it helps gamblers make bets and lost money while the elite get fatter from their money ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Broly46 (OP)
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October 27, 2020, 06:27:42 PM |
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There is no fundamental metric with which to judge intrinsic value. While some of these factors you mentioned are qualities of Bitcoin, they are somewhat not constant. Also the cost of production does not translate to intrinsic value. The way I see it, assets like bitcoin represents different things to different people, so it's value is subjective. Read the book “bitcoin standard”, it’s calling your valuable life time unit is the only real wealth for your alone living on this world, nobody else going to help you, or oversimplify “time is money”, the time people spend on gold is exceeding 5000 years to date, if we valued at one year unit 1 dollar, it would easily make 5000 dollar, down jokes was made 200 years ago? And 200 years ago the time is money equation don’t match up, it would be just 200 dollar for 200 years time unit. ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
This is the speculative value of the asset, intrinsic value is not expected, nor is it the profits for investors. [/quote] If time is not money, nobody will advocate it. Whether it’s or it isn’t is up to the believer, willing buyer willing seller basic, many choose to not believe. They rather believe in easy money than “hard money” like bitcoin or gold.
There is no intrinsic value for Dow Jones or other equity indices because they measure stock markets. Equity indices can be created and abolished at regulated index providers’ will. That’s why equity indices get hit hard when most stocks in their market crash. The underlying value is the stocks themselves. Down jokes had frequently replace blue chip components, the old blue chip is replace, some blue chip go broke like “south sea company” some blue chip underperform for very long and get boot off from the list, like GM and GE, soon to be Intel (used to be blue chip??) get boot off, but intel not even worth mentioning ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) .
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The Sceptical Chymist
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October 27, 2020, 06:35:52 PM |
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"Blue chips" and "ever changing" don't exactly go together. Something tells me Apple, Microsoft, Mcdonald's, and Coca-Cola will still exist in 10 years. ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) 10 years I'd say with almost certainty. 100 years, not so much. OP has a point that these indexes are constantly changing, although not that often. The "intrinsic value" of a stock (or a stock index) comes from the capital invested in the businesses that underlie the stock, and the earnings the companies generate. I don't know if that counts as intrinsic value or not, but I do know that it's those things that give stocks whatever value they have. Gold intrinsic values is gold mining from earth crust the man-power and their valuable life, the logistics of gold delivery.
Bitcoin intrinsic value is the mining rigs, the difficulty curve, the supply, the miner valuable life, the risk of delivery bitcoin to buyer without getting hacked.
I don't know if I agree with either of those statements. Intrinsic value is what something is worth simply by existing, right? If that's true, the statement about bitcoin is completely off, and so is the one about gold. Gold's instrinsic value is that it can be used to make jewelry or coins--but only as long as human beings want those things. Maybe my understanding of the term is lacking, but I'm thinking that it tends to get applied to bitcoin and other investments too much anyway.
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October 27, 2020, 06:37:39 PM |
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Intrinsic Value is a confusing term which has different meanings in Finance and Numismatics. In finance, intrinsic value of an asset usually refers to a value calculated on simplified assumptions. For example the intrinsic value of an option is based on the current market value of the underlying instrument, ignoring the possibility of future fluctuations and the time value of money. In numismatics, intrinsic value, also known as melt value, is the value of the metal, typically a precious metal, in a coin. For example, if gold trades in commercial markets at a price of US$ 1200 per fine troy ounce, then a coin minted from one troy ounce of fine gold would have an intrinsic value of US$ 1200. Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(finance) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_value_(numismatics) Don't get confused before making a statement about the intrinsic value of something. Financially, Dow Jones companies produce real world products so that's their intrinsic value. You buy the shares of those products. It could be overpriced or underpriced. That's for you to decide which is which.
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Broly46 (OP)
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October 27, 2020, 06:45:02 PM |
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You are confusing the term BOOK VALUE with INTRINSIC VALUE. Plus, intrinsic value is not a rigid/absolute term. It can mean many things. For example, Marxist lovers will think the intrinsic value is about labor (cost). While economists generally define intrinsic value as a value that can be measured objectively.
Anyway, about book value, corporations have fixed and current assets that can be measured objectively.
[/quote] Yup, I was fascinated with Book Value, it’s once believe to be an intrinsic value (there is just a couple hundreds of them metrics), but down jokes has and Book Value?
So, what happens with a company that is involved in gold mining and it's listed on stock exchanges, like Glencore or Rio Tinto, do they have intrinsic value or not? Now speaking strictly of Dow, do the oil fields owned by Chevron have intrinsic value or not? But, as I always tell people that think something is worthless if you have some shares in those companies that you consider worthless I have no problem buying them a thousand for a satoshi! I might give stock some intrinsic value, how about down jokes? I think down jokes has some untold intrinsic value, someone need to change the equation constantly to give it a value, the blue chip from the past do not existed today, they’re all history. One satoshi for a bag of blue chip sound very cruel, they should worth a little more than shit coin. [/quote] That aside I'm starting to get the feeling some people are going totally nuts, for them, this new so-called crypto-revolution means that everything that existed in the past was an illusion and it's going to be worthless, forget Coca-Cola or Amazon, westernunion and moneygram were supposed to be killed half a decade ago and they are still up and doing pretty good for themselves.
[/quote] Bitcoin does change some people perception about money, no offence, notably some anarchist would call bitcoin hard money, as if there’s hard and soft type of money, and not all money is equal, I’m not contesting on the debate to cherry picking the hardest money. I don’t know about Coca Cola and some of them very ancient blue chip, they’re some of the miracle blue chip that existed beyond its expected lifespan, there is always miracle in life doesn’t it? For example, Marxist lovers will think the intrinsic value is about labor (cost).
Yeah, no wonder every single time they fail, they should start measuring it by multiplying the labor effort with an IQ score for a start. theyre not entire proven wrong, property, land, gold, has always been hard money from the past, their value has been multi bagged gain too much to the point each home owner are entitled millionaire by birth, it’s a joke! Every middle class who own a house easily self entitled millionaire.
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Self hating nerd that want to escape from reality into the cyberpunk.
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exstasie
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October 27, 2020, 07:26:07 PM |
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Down jokes had frequently replace blue chip components, the old blue chip is replace, some blue chip go broke The index is only composed of the top 30 companies, so of course companies get replaced periodically depending on growth. Getting removed from the index doesn't mean a company isn't a blue chip. AT&T has been added and dropped from the Dow a bunch of times since 1916. Doesn't mean they aren't a blue chip, or that they went broke. You're just talking a bunch of nonsense. Anyway, about book value, corporations have fixed and current assets that can be measured objectively.
Yup, I was fascinated with Book Value, it’s once believe to be an intrinsic value (there is just a couple hundreds of them metrics), but down jokes has and Book Value? The companies that compose the index do. An index can't have intrinsic value, as was already explained to you. You can't own shares of it. It just tracks performance of the composite.
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Yogee
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October 28, 2020, 01:53:42 AM |
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I am not really into stocks but it's something about what's expected of the investment asset in the next few years. Where will the company stand and how much money they can make or dividends they can give to investors.
This is the speculative value of the asset, intrinsic value is not expected, nor is it the profits for investors. We're talking about stocks right? There is a degree of speculation in getting that value but they call it as "expected return". It's not as wild as crypto price speculation since there are formulas to compute and there are more reliable data available in making a financial forecast. People have different opinions on this actually and there are groups who argue that stocks have no intrinsic value.
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Darker45
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October 28, 2020, 02:54:35 AM |
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I am not really into stocks but it's something about what's expected of the investment asset in the next few years. Where will the company stand and how much money they can make or dividends they can give to investors.
This is the speculative value of the asset, intrinsic value is not expected, nor is it the profits for investors. We're talking about stocks right? There is a degree of speculation in getting that value but they call it as "expected return". It's not as wild as crypto price speculation since there are formulas to compute and there are more reliable data available in making a financial forecast. People have different opinions on this actually and there are groups who argue that stocks have no intrinsic value. Well, because intrinsic value as far as stocks or shares are concerned are a bit subjective. It may differ from one assessment or perception to the other despite the fact that there are actual formulae for it. Notwithstanding the objective analyses and calculations in determining the intrinsic value, it still boils down to whether or not an individual investor is willing enough to shell out a certain amount of money for it. And, yes, in the computation of the intrinsic or real value of a stock it is not just the present or current market performance which is to be taken into consideration but also its future performance or its potential for growth.
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mu_enrico
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October 28, 2020, 06:21:49 AM |
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OMG...
The source of this confusion is because OP used the term "intrinsic value" in finance and commodity at the same time (by comparing gold and stocks). Intrinsic value in finance is simply discounted cash flows, while in commodity/economics can mean labor, production costs, etc.
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