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Charles-Tim
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November 24, 2020, 07:25:22 AM
Last edit: November 25, 2020, 01:05:28 PM by Charles-Tim
 #1

I believe employees in all countries would have this type of investment plan in a way there would be companies rendering services in which the employee would be saving 10% or more of his/her salary into retirement account. This type of investment would be tax free and I believe this is how it supposed to work in all countries. Normally, people save fiats into retirement account, and as we know that fiats are fully vulnerable to governmental manipulations which can result to fiats value depreciation/devaluation.

Bitcoin has two major advantages:

1. Privacy, in a way we can save our bitcoin unknown to theives if all creteria for safety is considered and applied.
2. Appreciative money or asset that is not at all in any form vulnerable to central authority manipulations, and completely decentralized.

Some organizations are offering this type of service now in which you can be able to save usually 10% or more of your earnings into the retirement account, some other cryptocurrencies are also offered like ether, litecoin and bitcoin cash. I believe this type of bitcoin investment plan lacks privacy, but I think it is cool as the fiat paid lacks privacy already but the main advantage is that bitcoin being a deflationary currency will be best for this kind of account unlike fiats that will still depreciate over long time period, bitcoin will only appreciate (increase in price over a long time period.

What do you people think about bitcoin retirement accounts?

Although, we should still remember that bitcoin is meant to be a privacy coin, not your private key not your bitcoin.





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November 24, 2020, 07:32:55 AM
 #2

What do you people think about bitcoin retirement accounts? I think it is cool and can also increase bitcoin adoption.

Bitcoin price is volatile. Elderly hearths may not handle that too well.
So although on paper it sounds nice (adoption, handling taxes and conversions), it's not OK as solely Bitcoin based fund.

Also, Bitcoiners can make a 100% Bitcoin "fund" themselves ("be your own bank" & "not your keys, not your coins").


So I think that for this job a super diversified fund with also Bitcoin in it is a better option. Much smaller growth, but always growing. Sorry.

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November 24, 2020, 07:42:29 AM
 #3

Retirement account that is all bitcoin is not a good option with the current volatility, although there is an alternative for this which I think is better although it is still a concept, why not make a Index fund that trades in bitcoin, it is much better because it is long term and the return is somewhat competitive and good. The problem with this one is that it needs to have a good trader manager with a great portfolio, it will be difficult as most traders choose to remain anonymous, but with current start ups that plans to join the hype train, I think that in the near future we will get there soon.

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November 24, 2020, 08:07:54 AM
 #4

...
I totally agree with you. And it is good to learn about bitcoin and how it works rather than depending on such custodial services. I can personally take 10% or the persentage of interest to buy bitcoin myself in a no kyc exchange or through other no kyc means, and have the bitcoin in my noncustodial wallet. This will fulfill the purpose of bitcoin ritirement account, and the privacy which I excluded before now included. It is best for us to go noncustodial and having our private key to our bitcoin.





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November 24, 2020, 08:27:20 AM
 #5

First of all retirement accounts doesn't work in all countries around the world. There are still countries that do not use them at all even if in their fiat ecosystems.
Bitcoin is a volatile commodity thus it doesn't give small risk after a lot of years. We have seen that the Bitcoin price is only growing by the time it was invented however it will be hard to make the elderly believe that they are going to have a retirement fund of Bitcoins after some years of saving.
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November 24, 2020, 08:53:03 AM
 #6

First of all retirement accounts doesn't work in all countries around the world. There are still countries that do not use them at all even if in their fiat ecosystems.
Bitcoin is a volatile commodity thus it doesn't give small risk after a lot of years. We have seen that the Bitcoin price is only growing by the time it was invented however it will be hard to make the elderly believe that they are going to have a retirement fund of Bitcoins after some years of saving.

Retirement finds are usually very conversative investors in my country. There might be some more flexible ones where you can choose the composition our portfolio completely free. In the private retirement funds I have seen so far, it's usually a very limited number of funds to choose from. Most of the funds either invest in bonds or stock, commodities are very rare and FX funds too. It might be better to setup the fund yourself and manage it on your own to save fees.

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November 24, 2020, 08:59:54 AM
 #7

There's no guarantee in this market and you must understand before making this one as you retirement fund, also you have to know the risk you are taking. I know Bitcoin is great but I can't totally depend on this one, I'd rather have some other retirement fund and just use bitcoin for my short term goals and be more happy spending it.  Cheesy

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November 24, 2020, 09:03:27 AM
 #8

The company I'm working with have their own retirement plan program and I don't think they'll adopt Bitcoin for this one because this program is to assure their employees to get something when they retire and if they take the risk on investing with Bitcoin, those people might get mad to the company if they get nothing.

Well, you can have your own personal account with Bitcoin and you might consider this as your retirement plan, my dream is to retire at the age of 40 and hopefully to have a financial freedom at that time.

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November 24, 2020, 09:13:30 AM
 #9

Well, it could be an option. Limiting retirement funds into Bitcoin seems detrimental so having the option to choose either Fiat or Bitcoin (or any other crypto, if possible) seems the better choice. Some people out there may not like leaving their retirement funds to a volatile asset. And on that note honestly, the person themselves could just simply invest in Bitcoin and exchange it once they retire. It's the same logic, and at the same time, guaranteed that the Bitcoin is yours since as you said, not your keys, not your coins. Especially since Bitcoin volatility would most likely remain until at the very least, the time when supply is stopped or is at the end, which is still a little bit over a century from now on.

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November 24, 2020, 10:07:29 AM
 #10

I believe employees in all countries would have this type of investment plan in a way there would be companies rendering services in which the employee would be saving 10% or more of his/her salary into retirement account. This type of investment would be tax free and I believe this is how it supposed to work in all countries. Normally, people save fiats into retirement account, and as we know that fiats are fully vulnerable to governmental manipulations which can result to fiats value depreciation/devaluation.

Bitcoin has two major advantages:

1. Privacy, in a way we can save our bitcoin unknown to theives if all creteria for safety is considered and applied.
2. Appreciative money or asset that is not at all in any form vulnerable to central authority manipulations, and completely decentralized.

Some organizations are offering this type of service now in which you can be able to save usually 10% or more of your earnings into the retirement account, some other cryptocurrencies are also offered like ether, litecoin and bitcoin cash. I believe this type of bitcoin investment plan lacks privacy, but I think it is cool as the fiat paid lacks privacy already but the main advantage is that bitcoin being a deflationary currency will be best for this kind of account unlike fiats that will still appreciate over long time period, bitcoin will only appreciate (increase in price over a long time period.

What do you people think about bitcoin retirement accounts? I think it is cool and can also increase bitcoin adoption.

Although, we should still remember that bitcoin is meant to be a privacy coin, not your private key not your bitcoin.

I think that such a system has two points of failure - possible problems with bitcoin and possible problems with the Pension Fund itself.  This makes such a system unreliable.

The best option is to become a bitcoin holder yourself.  Why do you need an intermediary in the person of the Pension Fund? 

Satoshi Nakamoto, creating Bitcoin, created a system that does not need to use intermediaries.  That is why the price of Bitcoin is rising - Bitcoin is an alternative to the modern financial system.  If Bitcoin becomes part of modern finance, then its price will collapse, because the global financial system is collapsing.  Death awaits her.

Even the fact that it is a deflationary asset will not save Bitcoin.


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November 24, 2020, 10:31:57 AM
 #11

Imo, the idea of a bitcoin retirement account is good for people who are already Bitcoin users, who already understand the network, it's volatility and it's risks, and want a currency that can act as a hedge to fiat vulnerabilities and also appreciates (depreciates as well) rapidly in value, for others who have a lopsided view of the network, they will prolly not fancy it, and if ever they do, any slight plunge and they may start calling for a change in "currency" of their retirement plan. Having said that, my point is if companies are ever going to introduce the option of a Bitcoin retirement plan, it should be voluntary, for workers who want to choose it, and it must also be implemented in such a way that the worker is fully in control of the funds going into the wallet, for security reasons. It'll btw be good for adoption and help people build a btc portfolio.

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November 24, 2020, 10:41:48 AM
 #12

Ofcourse. I guess 1% minimum and 40% maximum of workers salaries would be fair and safe. And I would only allow the workers to invest in Bitcoin or any safe and well decentralized cryptocurrency with limited/scarce supply. In my opinion, Bitcoin remains the most decentralized and safe (atleast amongst the top cryptocurrencies)
Other top coins are what I would call pseudo-decentralized. They tend to be centered around few "CEO/founders/owners"(unlike Bitcoin) despite the numbers of nodes they have on their networks.
And It would great that workers are able to fully control their funds.



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November 24, 2020, 11:32:54 AM
 #13

@Charles-Tim

Protecting a currency from depreciation can't be done with Bitcoin's security. It's 2 different concepts.

If your Bitcoin portfolio is protected from thieves, hackers, and protect your privacy, it doesn't make Bitcoin immune to devaluation.
If someone hacks your wallet you're fucked. If someone hacks your bank account, the bank is supposed to refund you for their lack of security.

I don't think injecting Bitcoin in a retirement account is a wise thing to do when we know its volatility. What about when you turn 60 years old and your retirement plan is valued at 14$. It's about the same risk as putting all your savings in a casino and gamble to prepare for your retirement. Who's crazy to do this?.

If banks are able to generate a percentage of income with Bitcoin (e.g. 5% per annum) you could very well do it yourself, with fewer fees and therefore a higher return than with a bank, since banks will take their piece of cake

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November 24, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
 #14

If your Bitcoin portfolio is protected from thieves, hackers, and protect your privacy, it doesn't make Bitcoin immune to devaluation.
You can be right, but I think it can be impossible for bitcoin to devalue over long period of time. These are my reasons:

1. If you can check past time, bitcoin marketcap is not as high as this, and also bitcoin is mosted used by retail investors unlike now that institutions are the whales recently investing, which may change bitcoin realized cap and strengthen it.

2. Bitcoin is also a deflationary currency, as people are getting to know bitcoin, there will be a time its marketcap will be strong like gold, and because of the limited supply, more people will be encouraged to invest in it.

I am thinking in the next 60 years, bitcoin ca never be $20000 or lower again, its marketcap will be in trillion at the time. Very possible bitcoin price will surpass $100000.

If bitcoin reach all time high ($20000) soon, that means it is still a deflationary currency, and nobody that is holding it again is losing, aside the fomo people that later sold bitcoin at loss.

If someone hacks your wallet you're fucked. If someone hacks your bank account, the bank is supposed to refund you for their lack of security.
You are right, but custodial services like Gemini Trust are providing the custodial means, that was even the reason I made the topic, but some members did not agree for such custodial means that bitcoin should be totally noncustodial. I go noncustodial, but it is certain that the custodial means will dominate, and cold wallet is being used by Gemini trust to save the funds, and if anything goes wrong, the custodial service provider should be held to provide customers funds.





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November 24, 2020, 12:51:05 PM
 #15

What do you people think about bitcoin retirement accounts? I think it is cool and can also increase bitcoin adoption.

Bitcoin price is volatile. Elderly hearths may not handle that too well.
So although on paper it sounds nice (adoption, handling taxes and conversions), it's not OK as solely Bitcoin based fund.

Also, Bitcoiners can make a 100% Bitcoin "fund" themselves ("be your own bank" & "not your keys, not your coins").


So I think that for this job a super diversified fund with also Bitcoin in it is a better option. Much smaller growth, but always growing. Sorry.

Indeed. Retiring means you're just enjoying the life by relaxing and taking care of yourself, but with Bitcoin as a retirement investment, I think instead of enjoying their retirement, it would be another stressful part of their lives whenever they are looking at their ledger or online wallets seeing the price of Bitcoin going down and going up.

And it might be the reason why instead of having profits, they would lost their profits because they withdraw all of their Bitcoins into fiat due to a panic attack.

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November 24, 2020, 02:35:25 PM
 #16

There was just a thread about this very thing yesterday, and if I recall some investment firm has already created the first bitcoin/crypto retirement account.

Personally, I think it's crazy to save for your retirement by stacking bitcoin (or any other crypto)--unless you're young, make a lot of money, and don't make crypto too large a part of your portfolio.  Bitcoin might be booming right now, headed toward its all-time high, but if you've been following the market for a few years you'll be very familiar with how quickly bitcoin can drop.  That kind of asset isn't appropriate for a retirement account, IMO. 

Also, why would you choose to buy bitcoin through a retirement plan (presumably with fees) when you could just buy it outright and keep it in your own possession?  I don't know, I'm not a big fan of the idea.

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November 24, 2020, 04:11:41 PM
 #17

Retirement accounts with Bitcoin are a bad idea because we all know that retirement funds have no way to increase their returns other than to invest the money of the people involved in it to make a profit. Bitcoin itself is an investment, so there's no need for a Bitcoin pension fund. Bitcoin cannot multiply on its own by sending in a company so that it grows in number. Given Bitcoin's volatility in value, I believe that no company will risk accepting Bitcoin and creating more Bitcoin coins.

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November 24, 2020, 04:32:13 PM
 #18

The problem is bitcoin price is not stable for the retirement saving purpose. In other words, you can maybe buy and invest 100 usd every week for your retirement savings but none can say how much this will worth after 30-20 years maybe you will be a millionaire maybe not. The other idea can be to creating a decentralized project for this purpose and ask the clients to pay some bitcoins every month/week and after 25 give them some benefits, this can be great idea if you can keep it decentralized because the whole point of bitcoin is to stay decentralized and away from the corrupted traditional banking systems.

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November 24, 2020, 04:33:44 PM
 #19

I am basically doing this right now myself and I believe it will be very valuable. At the end of the day just buy bitcoin as much as you can and continue to increase your bitcoin portfolio as much as you can and just keep doing that for as long as possible. If you can buy bitcoin and put it aside for 20+ years, by the end of it you are going to be pretty much rich and that is a great retirement idea.

I have been doing it and I haven't increased it to a level where it is good to retire just yet but I have started not that long ago, which means if I keep this up with the same speed, I will probably have something like a great retirement amount in 14 or so years and I will be very young when that happens.

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November 24, 2020, 05:38:45 PM
 #20

Bitcoin has two major advantages:

1. Privacy, in a way we can save our bitcoin unknown to theives if all creteria for safety is considered and applied.

Bitcoin have transparent ledger. When you open Bitcoin blockchain explorer you can check any wallet and see what is there and where coins come from and when they will went. Everyone can see it.  When you have money in bank or wherever only bank know you have money there. And a hacker that hack the bank information's and the ones  that hacker sell those information. Or the one bank sell those information Smiley   Not everyone as with Bitcoin.  Lack of privacy is Bitcoin biggest flaw that sadly no one is aware of.

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