Just Made a Payment with the New Fees

[BittBurger]

Does this sound correct?
Bought something on TigerDirect.com with Bitcoin - $86.88
Was expected to pay a miner fee by Bitcoin QT.   Worked out to $0.05

So I had to pay 5 cents fee on an $87 purchase.

Should we stop saying Bitcoin is free?  I mean ...

I know - beating a dead horse, but every time I have to pay, I ask myself why I tell people its free.

[pungopete468]

Does this sound correct?
Bought something on TigerDirect.com with Bitcoin - $86.88
Was expected to pay a miner fee by Bitcoin QT.   Worked out to $0.05

So I had to pay 5 cents fee on an $87 purchase.

Should we stop saying Bitcoin is free?  I mean ...

I know - beating a dead horse, but every time I have to pay, I ask myself why I tell people its free.

Set your computer to mine; run low priority in the background. Download the client and use your own PC to relay the transaction. It's free for those who support the network by mining. Non miners support the network with a small fee. Obviously your power cost is a factor, but it will likely average out for you if you just run a low priority process.

Google how to do it all if you aren't sure. The info is there.

[DannyHamilton]

every time I have to pay, I ask myself why I tell people its free.

Because you like to lie to people?

I would never tell people its free.  TANSTAAFL my friend.

It is very cheap, and it can be free under some circumstances, but "free" is not one of the many great things about bitcoin.

[DannyHamilton]

Set your computer to mine; run low priority in the background. Download the client and use your own PC to relay the transaction. It's free for those who support the network by mining. Non miners support the network with a small fee.

Google how to do it all if you aren't sure. The info is there.

Of course if you do that, you'll pay a lot more than $0.05 in electricity, and your transaction will still need a fee in many circumstances to ever get confirmed, so that seems like really bad advice.

[BittBurger]

Im not trying to scam the miners out of their due fee.

But i started on this scene in June of 2013 and I can confidently say a *lot* of people were using the word "Free" at that point.

It slowly evolved near the end of 2013 to people saying "for almost free" ...

But I had it in my head either way

EDIT:   Ah!  Is that because in June 2013 .0001 basically *was* free?  (BTC was $90)

[cp1]

It's called a fee for a reason.  You were able to send older coins without a fee for > 1 BTC transactions, but I think those days are over now that there's so many transactions.

[12648430]

Does this sound correct?
Bought something on TigerDirect.com with Bitcoin - $86.88
Was expected to pay a miner fee by Bitcoin QT.   Worked out to $0.05

So I had to pay 5 cents fee on an $87 purchase.

Should we stop saying Bitcoin is free?  I mean ...

I know - beating a dead horse, but every time I have to pay, I ask myself why I tell people its free.

It's not free. It's not intended to be free. You are correct in questioning your motives for making that claim. Still, $0.05 is a lot less than fees for paying with any credit card; it's just more obvious because they payer includes the fee rather than the payee quietly pricing it in.

Set your computer to mine; run low priority in the background. Download the client and use your own PC to relay the transaction. It's free for those who support the network by mining. Non miners support the network with a small fee. Obviously your power cost is a factor, but it will likely average out for you if you just run a low priority process.

Google how to do it all if you aren't sure. The info is there.

This is terrible advice and would not help your situation in any way. Pay no attention to this idiot.

[DannyHamilton]

Im not trying to scam the miners out of their due fee.

But i started on this scene in June of 2013 and I can confidently say a *lot* of people were using the word "Free" at that point.

Then they were misinformed or lying to you.

It was written directly in the original whitepaper that bitcoin transaction costs would be supported by transaction fees (you did read the whitepaper, right?).

The incentive can also be funded with transaction fees. If the output value of a transaction is
less than its input value, the difference is a transaction fee that is added to the incentive value of
the block containing the transaction.

[jonald_fyookball]

but ive sent bitcoins many times with 0 fee and it went through fine

[Littleshop]

Does this sound correct?
Bought something on TigerDirect.com with Bitcoin - $86.88
Was expected to pay a miner fee by Bitcoin QT.   Worked out to $0.05

So I had to pay 5 cents fee on an $87 purchase.

Should we stop saying Bitcoin is free?  I mean ...

I know - beating a dead horse, but every time I have to pay, I ask myself why I tell people its free.

Nearly free.

Or less then 1/10 of 1%

are both good ways to describe Bitcoin fees. 

[DannyHamilton]

but ive sent bitcoins many times with 0 fee and it went through fine

And I've crossed the railroad tracks many times without looking and I'm still alive.  That doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that you will be as successful next time as you have been in the past.  Eventually you will get hit by the train (or in this case you will get a transaction that takes a VERY LONG time to confirm).  It is up to you if you want to take that risk or not.

As I already said:

it can be free under some circumstances

just like crossing railroad tracks without looking can be safe under some circumstances (such as when a train doesn't happen to be coming)

[solex]

I know - beating a dead horse, but every time I have to pay, I ask myself why I tell people its free.

OK OK. It's nearly free. Almost free.
Do you think any credit card or debit card or paypal payment costs less in the long run? No, because you are hit with all kinds of bank charges for having an account or a card, and the merchant is hit with fees which are always passed on to consumers and hidden in the product price.

5c per payment is dirt cheap and Bitcoin could cleanup if it remained in that range long-term.

[franky1]

will people stop thinking that miners NEED fee's
25btc is more then enough to share between them every 10 minutes

if they decide to sell it at a low buy price instantly, that is their fault. we do not need to subsidise them like the government subsidises farmers, purely to make rich corporations richer.

fee's should have only been an issue to be added in a couple decades time. not for the last 5 years and not for any year soon.

i propose miners stop being greedy asking for more money, and instead hoard what they have until bitcoin price rises to the value they want,. they should not sell instantly at a low price and then cry that its not profitable, and then blame the community for not giving them a subsidy..

seriously people the fee's are a greedy bonus. they do not help the community, it does not help with the whole "micro payment" ethos that bit coin had. nor the "free transactions" that bitcoin had.

bitcoin fundamentals are being diluted or eventually disappearing completely due to greed

i am not going to be able to buy a 50c chewing gum at a vending machine if im being charged 5c..

yes the fee is not as noticeable for large transactions.. but that then makes bitcoin a payment system "only for the rich"

i hope people realise that bitcoin is loosing its main concept and usefulness slowly each day.

take the core-QT. it no longer allows you to simply copy and paste a already known address to hand out to people. Luke Jr wants people to keep editing their donations button to be new addresses per use. hense why this feature is in the core-qt.

yes great for merchants to audit transactions.. but not for average joe.

[odolvlobo]

It is free because fees are optional (for now).

[12648430]

will people stop thinking that miners NEED fee's
25btc is more then enough to share between them every 10 minutes

if they decide to sell it at a low buy price instantly, that is their fault. we do not need to subsidise them like the givernment sbsidises farmers, purely to make rich corporations richer.

fee's should have only been an issue to be added in a couple decades time. not for the last 5 years and not for any year soon.

i propose miners stop being greedy asking for more money, and instead hoard what they have until bitcoin price rises to the value they want,. they should not sell instantly at a low price and then cry that its not profitable, and then blame the community for not giving them a subsidy..

seriously people the fee's are a greedy bonus. they do not help the community, it does not help with the whole "micro payment" ethos that bit coin had. nor the "free transactions" that bitcoin had.

bit coin fundamentals are being diluted or eventually disappearing completely due to greed

i am not going to be able to buy a 50c chewing gum at a vending machine if im being charged 5c..

yes the fee is not as noticable for large transactions.. but that then makes bitcoin a payment system "only for the rich"

i hope people realise that bitcoin is loosing its main concept and usefulness slowly each day.

take the core-QT. it no longer allows you to simply copy and paste a already known address to hand out to people. Luke Jr wants people to keep editing their donations button to be new addresses per use. hense why this feature is in the core-qt.

yes great for merchants to audit transactions.. but not for average joe.

You don't seem to have considered the economics of mining at all. With current rewards and fees, the orphan risk of including a transaction in a block far outweighs the fee, so we're relying on miners including transactions in blocks out of altruism. Some miners don't include any transactions in their blocks, and they make slightly more money on average. Paying no fees at all would further incentivize such behavior, jeopardizing the survival of the entire economy.

[acoindr]

Keep in mind Bitcoin is not fully evolved, not even close.

That's a really cool thing about it. Not everything is known about normalized Bitcoin usage yet because it's still so early in its life. Many possibilities remain.

Saying it's free to send bitcoin isn't entirely false. It can be misleading, though. Technically, it's possible to send a bitcoin transaction without any fee. It's just not smooth, or very reliable, yet. It may never be practical to send "quick" transactions without any fee on the core Bitcoin network, but that's not the only way to transfer bitcoins. It may become possible to send bitcoin transactions completely free or for negligible fees at some point in the future via off-chain transactions, for example. I still believe that will be a big part of Bitcoin's future. It makes sense, eases block size limit pressure, and can foster innovative market based solutions for transfer, such as ad based monetization models in lieu of fees.

Remember, bitcoins are not physical. Their inherently digital nature coupled with a global Internet means possibilities for cheap, efficient transfer are many.

[maaku]

Yes you should stop telling people it's free. It's not free and never has been and never will be.

[franky1]

You don't seem to have considered the economics of mining at all. With current rewards and fees, the orphan risk of including a transaction in a block far outweighs the fee, so we're relying on miners including transactions in blocks out of altruism. Some miners don't include any transactions in their blocks, and they make slightly more money on average. Paying no fees at all would further incentivize such behavior, jeopardizing the survival of the entire economy.

economics of mining should be, if the 25btc is being shared out too thinly.. dont sell it cheap and demand to be subsidized (with fee's)

instead, if miners stopped selling so cheap, the price would rise and they could then sell at higher prices to pay their electric bills.

but no the greedy impatient miners prefer to demand subsidies instead. causing higher transaction costs and lower bitcoin value..

now you learn economics
your economics is to drop bitcoin value and tax transactions
everyone else s economics is to have free transactions and a healthy bitcoin price..

all miners are doing is making bitcoin into a greed fest, like government money. where the people making the currency demand extra money from the average people, whilst devaluing that same money..

bitcoin is now
taxed - due to fee's
not for microtransactions - due to fee's and satoshi dust limit of 5k minimum spend
not depreciable - due to fee's and satoshi dust limit of 5k minimum spend
only "low fee" on high priced products. - a 50c pack of mints has a 10% fee

if people cant spend just 0.00005000 because of fees and limits. then people wont use it for small items and the bitcoin price wont rise. because people cant use it at low level pricing

[zumzero]

"Little to no fees" is a favourable term I've seen used a lot.

The fee is based on the size of the data file and not the actual value of the coins being sent so it costs the same to send $10 or $10,000,000 worth of bitcoin.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[franky1]

"Little to no fees" is a favourable term I've seen used a lot.

The fee is based on the size of the data file and not the actual value of the coins being sent so it costs the same to send $10 or $10,000,000 worth of bitcoin.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

you not wrong as you said 0.0001 is a low fee when sending $10mill.. but a huge fee for purchasing a candy bar,  bottle of pepsi, a banana, coffee, sandwich. a litre of car fuel..

you know, the main products that will make mainstreaming succeed.. so ignore the fee's when talking about millionaires laundering funds.. think about it from the common mans prospective.

i have said it on a different thread. but to pt more common man rospective on bitcoin..
fee's on average per block only add upto 0.25btc at most.

so demanding subsidies does not hlp out miners to be able to afford their electric. to explain ill just leave this food for thought
0.25btc = 1% of 25btc
mining pool fee's = 1%
mining pool owner = rich.
miners = not as rich.

so will miners realise your not getting richer from fee income
so will miners realise your not getting richer when selling cheap
so will miners realise your not getting richer when demanding people pay transaction tax (fee's)