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Author Topic: SatoshiDice is not Provably Fair betting on 1000x  (Read 459 times)
sukbir (OP)
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November 27, 2020, 08:01:34 PM
 #21

Thank you for your time and research about my case. I am sure they are not going to refund me single pence. I hope it will aware community about Satoshidice.com provably fair..
If you seriously think that you have been cheated by SatoshiDice, you should create a Scam Accusation @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0. Be sure to provide enough evidence. Remember, if it is found that your allegation is baseless, you may be permanently tagged as a scammer.

Yes I am serious about my case, I email them again. If I don't get any reply then I will definitely create a Scam Accusation on that thread. I do have enough evidence.

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November 27, 2020, 09:16:36 PM
 #22

~snip~

Thank you for your time and research about my case. Could you please check this thread reply by SD staff on 24 Feb. 2018 regarding "How to verify the fairness of our system": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.5440 I think it will help you for further research.  

I am sure they are not going to refund me single pence. I hope it will aware community about Satoshidice.com provably fair..

Nice find. I will look into it in detail tomorrow because part of the script is missing (owner has only posted half of the script and javascript links are not working). I will have to write my own Mersenne Twister function to make it work. Also the post is unclear about how the 4-byte number is determined (from the random number or it needed to be processed further) which is needed to be determined as well.

Also note that it is too soon to label SatoshiDice as a scam. My only reason for potentially believing that SatoshiDice can be a scam is because I though Random Number Seed is randomly picked by the site. But if it is generated with server seed, transaction id and output index as the inputs then my assumption could be wrong. Any way, I will try to sort out things tomorrow and will get to the bottom of the result generation process.
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November 27, 2020, 10:07:13 PM
 #23

I don't know exact system on SatoshiDice now (the last time i played it was like 5 years ago) but i need to look deeply. It's can be just a bad  distribution which is not on your side. Gambler's fallacy, do you remember?

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November 29, 2020, 09:47:15 AM
Merited by kryptqnick (1), efialtis (1), 24Kt (1)
 #24

Okay, so after waiting for a day and half and getting no reply from SatoshiDice staff about the script, I decided to go forward and figure out myself how SatoshiDice provably fair system works. As directed by @sukbir in couple of posts above, the admin of SatoshiDice posted current provably fair script here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.msg30976380#msg30976380. But the post was unclear about lots of things, also js links weren't working so I had to figure out some things like Mersenne Twister algorithm, how return value of Mersenne Twister algorithm is handled, how 4-byte number is determined, etc. I figured out everything and finally found how SatoshiDice calculate dice rolls.

I have created my own verification tool for SatoshiDice (the first ever) and uploaded it on the below link


Explanation about how it works (so you can verify it on your own without using the verifier):

Before moving further let me state the important thing - SatoshiDice's Provably Fair System is completely fair and the doubts about the script that I expressed earlier in this thread were found wrong.

Now coming to the system's explanation, first thing a user needs to make sure is that server seed hash actually belongs to the exposed server seed (server seed plain text). To do so, go to this tool: https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html. Paste 'server seed plain text' in the input column, change 'input type' to Hex from Text and check if the Output matches the Server Seed Hash provided by SatoshiDice.

Next step is to verify whether Random Number Seed is correct or not. The process of finding random number seed is as follows:

Random Number Seed = SHA256 Hash of Server Seed + Transaction Id + Vout

Consider this bet: https://satoshidice.com/fair/?id=2509476

In the above bet,
Server Seed = 1689f63f6470e19105c131a0b5cde0d475129bf026b7e6a3ecf3571aa1481c15
Transaction Id = 254f030a3ae3691e90c09de297eae6d34d3485fdfc3acf47da04c9c82bb4fc62
Vout* = 39

*In case you wonder what vout is, vout refers to the index of output in the transaction. A transaction can have more than one ouput. The vout of first output is 0, then 1, then 2 and so on. Vout 39 means we are talking about 40th output of the transaction.

The next step is convert Vout from decimal to hexidecimal. Use this tool: https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/decimal-to-hex.html. The hexidecimal equivalent of 39 is '27'. The length of vout should be 8 so we will add preceding zeros to make it of this length.

So, Vout = 00000027

So random number seed = SHA256 (1689f63f6470e19105c131a0b5cde0d475129bf026b7e6a3ecf3571aa1481c15254f030a3ae3691 e90c09de297eae6d34d3485fdfc3acf47da04c9c82bb4fc6200000027)

To calculate SHA256 hash of this string, go to this tool again: https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html. Paste the above string in the input column, change the input type to Hex and check if the output matches the Random Number Seed shown on Bet ID page.

The final step is to calculate Mersenne Twister to get the probability distributed between 0 and 1. Then multiply the number with 65536 to get the dice roll result. I didn't find any tool online to find Mersenne Twister number the way SatoshiDice uses so I created my own. Use this tool: https://webtricks.website/satoshidice, fill all columns and you will be shown the number.

In case of above bet, it will be 0.9642251755576581 which when multiplied by 65536 gives 63191.461104 as the result. Remove the decimal part and the rest is your dice roll which will match the dice roll shown to you on the website, making SatoshDice 100% provably fair!
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November 29, 2020, 09:58:26 AM
 #25

@sukbir - Even though I explained how SatoshiDice is fair in the above post, it is still suspicious that they haven't published the server seed hash for 25th November, 2020 on the blockchain. I will suggest you to contact the support and ask if that was mistake. If yes, then provide the transaction link. If no, then why the hash for that day not posted on blockchain?

You should even demand the refund if site is unable to provide the transaction link. This is serious issue and significantly reduces the credibility of the casino which promotes itself as bitcoin dApp, blockchain based casino, true vision of Satoshi, bla bla.

 
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November 29, 2020, 09:59:40 AM
 #26

Looks like their inactive anymore on their thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.0 have you managed to contact their support? probably you wanted to post it too on their ANN thread maybe they could give you an explanation for that.

That ANN is managed by their Ex-admin and that guy is also inactive here in the forum for many years.
So IMO there is no point in debating about it here.
Better the OP should direct contact to the in game support or to any of their social media handles.

I don't understand why these guys play in such sites where no active Support is shown by the Site's administration.
Nevertheless hope the issue will be fixed Op.

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November 29, 2020, 10:04:40 AM
 #27

Looks like their inactive anymore on their thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.0 have you managed to contact their support? probably you wanted to post it too on their ANN thread maybe they could give you an explanation for that.

That ANN is managed by their Ex-admin and that guy is also inactive here in the forum for many years.
So IMO there is no point in debating about it here.
Better the OP should direct contact to the in game support or to any of their social media handles.

I don't understand why these guys play in such sites where no active Support is shown by the Site's administration.
Nevertheless hope the issue will be fixed Op.

Maybe SatoshiDice is trying to get out of this problem so there is no response at all from the support, I'm also not sure if this can be fixed quickly hopefully they are aware of this where they can run again when the problem is resolved.

It has been from the start that SatoshiDice doesn't respond to many of its customers because of that we are not very observant in this matter so that when playing and there are problems nothing will fix it.
It seems like many cases like this have happened.

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November 29, 2020, 11:03:34 AM
 #28

That's a great update, webtricks! Thanks for making the verification tool (although I think it would be wise for SatoshiDice to put something like this on their own website, so that verification is easily accessible to anyone who plays there), and for checking whether this casino is truly provably fair. I'm glad it turns out they are not scammers, although their verification system sounds unnecessarily complicated to me.
I hope the op's case will also be resolved with a reasonable explanation or a refund provided.

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November 29, 2020, 11:14:32 AM
 #29

If you really want fair games and well-known games then I think you better play games at a casino that offers official and distributed games such as Netent to name but a few. They are strictly checked for rules and regulations. I don't believe in that provably fair self-made software.

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November 29, 2020, 11:34:38 AM
 #30

If you really want fair games and well-known games then I think you better play games at a casino that offers official and distributed games such as Netent to name but a few. They are strictly checked for rules and regulations. I don't believe in that provably fair self-made software.

Netent is one of well known game providers, but are their games provably fair? I do not think so, as I have never seen any verification tools on their game unless I miss it.
If you want real fair games, you need to play on casinos where you can verify your bets.
If you believe a game is fair just because it comes from well known provider but there is no ways for you to verify your bets and on the other side you do not believe provably fair game where you can verify your bet, it is completely wrong mindset.

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November 29, 2020, 01:07:02 PM
 #31

If you really want fair games and well-known games then I think you better play games at a casino that offers official and distributed games such as Netent to name but a few. They are strictly checked for rules and regulations. I don't believe in that provably fair self-made software.

Netent is one of well known game providers, but are their games provably fair? I do not think so, as I have never seen any verification tools on their game unless I miss it.
If you want real fair games, you need to play on casinos where you can verify your bets.
If you believe a game is fair just because it comes from well known provider but there is no ways for you to verify your bets and on the other side you do not believe provably fair game where you can verify your bet, it is completely wrong mindset.

Me too I'm not comfortable with game providers even though they are known provider I still prefer the provably fair game casino since you would be able to check your bets and verify every one of it.

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November 29, 2020, 01:19:15 PM
 #32

It's for reasons like this that I never play with the intention of won money, only for fun.

It's frustrating that you lose a large amount of money invested and get this suspicion that the site stole you.
Even playing for fun, it's not cool to be stolen, but at least I'm spending my money as a form of recreation and not for an investment.

But back to the topic, I'm sorry for @sukbir huge bad luck and congratulate @webtricks for the research done and the answers brought here.

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November 29, 2020, 04:51:00 PM
 #33

Thank you for your time and research about my case. I am sure they are not going to refund me single pence. I hope it will aware community about Satoshidice.com provably fair..
If you seriously think that you have been cheated by SatoshiDice, you should create a Scam Accusation @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0. Be sure to provide enough evidence. Remember, if it is found that your allegation is baseless, you may be permanently tagged as a scammer.

Yes I am serious about my case, I email them again. If I don't get any reply then I will definitely create a Scam Accusation on that thread. I do have enough evidence.
Below is the standard Scam Report Format. Follow this.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260073.0

Once again, make sure to provide concrete evidence. SatoshiDice is a reputed game. If your allegation is found baseless, there will be counter action.

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November 29, 2020, 07:07:52 PM
 #34

@sukbir - Even though I explained how SatoshiDice is fair in the above post, it is still suspicious that they haven't published the server seed hash for 25th November, 2020 on the blockchain. I will suggest you to contact the support and ask if that was mistake. If yes, then provide the transaction link. If no, then why the hash for that day not posted on blockchain?

You should even demand the refund if site is unable to provide the transaction link. This is serious issue and significantly reduces the credibility of the casino which promotes itself as bitcoin dApp, blockchain based casino, true vision of Satoshi, bla bla.

 

I have already contacted support team via email but no response Sad
Anyway thank you for everything..

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November 30, 2020, 03:10:52 AM
 #35

@sukbir - Even though I explained how SatoshiDice is fair in the above post, it is still suspicious that they haven't published the server seed hash for 25th November, 2020 on the blockchain. I will suggest you to contact the support and ask if that was mistake. If yes, then provide the transaction link. If no, then why the hash for that day not posted on blockchain?

You should even demand the refund if site is unable to provide the transaction link. This is serious issue and significantly reduces the credibility of the casino which promotes itself as bitcoin dApp, blockchain based casino, true vision of Satoshi, bla bla.

 

I have already contacted support team via email but no response Sad
Anyway thank you for everything..

Posts from webtricks are very informative. Thank you very much for that. It is nice to see that there are users here who are willing to extend their help and spend effort in finding the truth about the casino. It is good that after his investigation, satoshidice is provably fair after all. But that specific date, Nov 25, was somewhat a mystery. I hope satoshidice will make a formal statement regarding this matter.
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November 30, 2020, 01:28:44 PM
 #36

I probably didn't see enough reason why you think they are lying. Is it because of this:
Good day!
The games at satoshidice are 100% provably fair, and you don't have to take our word for it; you can independently verify the fairness of every single game you play by following the instructions at the 'Provably Fair' link at the top of any page on our site.

Doesn't that really verify the fairness of games played on the site, or is it not the proper way to verify the site's provable fairness.?
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November 30, 2020, 05:46:13 PM
 #37

I probably didn't see enough reason why you think they are lying. Is it because of this:
Good day!
The games at satoshidice are 100% provably fair, and you don't have to take our word for it; you can independently verify the fairness of every single game you play by following the instructions at the 'Provably Fair' link at the top of any page on our site.

Doesn't that really verify the fairness of games played on the site, or is it not the proper way to verify the site's provable fairness.?

'Provably Fair' link only shows the hashed and unhashed server seeds for each day. It doesn't explain how user can independently verify his own bets, nor does it provide any link to the script.
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December 01, 2020, 10:02:24 AM
 #38

Hi guys, I got another email from SatoshiDice support team.

Quote
Hi there,

Thanks for contacting the Support team.

We have received your request. We have forwarded it to our admins to have it checked, and we will message you once there are updates. Thanks!

Regards,
XXXX

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December 20, 2022, 01:07:00 PM
 #39

Does anyone still play SD in 2022. I left it years ago but still site looks active Smiley

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