SatoshiDice is not Provably Fair betting on 1000x

[sukbir]

Hi Guys,

On 25/11/2020 I was betting on 1000x that is less 65 roll using electron cash wallet. Most of the time I was betting more then 50 times in one go. In total I was betting more then 3k times but couldn’t hit less then 65 roll (1000x) . I spend around 4.5 BCH . I was thinking maybe they can manipulate roll otherwise how it could be possible not rolling even once betting more then 3k times for same number. I don't think their system is provably fair betting on 1000x.

On that day it has Server Seed Hash: 2d2f447e0166fc2efbe4b26140745f5de7dfa3fb5f8197f5bc8435a24e79941b and Server Seed TX: was empty. I was not sure why server seed TX was empty. https://satoshidice.com/fair/?id=2509466

Most surprising thing for me is that once I finish betting SD system or staff instantly transfer my losing bet money to their wallet. If you look below transaction you will know that's all my money.


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/d860cc6d80678fba612edeea368790bb54d6c1821200be3007148c0f6fb61d70

https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/357437937970bec72b44271198c180212e4854d58b389453f3037b6e73e50ce3


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/e1ed98e582e2346107d5d901df746941c1d3583dc386c015d2fb9f52256a5433


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/f6edcbc45089027eaf2a0bce36d54d194ae37d87167d8547cacd734513017b91


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/6d676303244e90881941489b34483524b7f17bf3ca0440cf275ec190adc6b736



https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/f57c58ad5dc3a9c5fb266557236b84753aca1bed3fb9307ea52baf715ef92625


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/a9bf61d70651257decaa0377d9b089e10a209a829f1610b03dbe0eca30ce7a15


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/f203004653d25b3190cb8d387919be7cdaba4b4303b51212c9d25026807f2108


https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/49f715d028c28e718e844c986c962c7ef6d15e7f531ae614777217f32f9703cc




https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/7329d4bcaf6182f052a5bb695636e5b0a54265edd983459de813e11158f281e1

[Lakai01]

On 25/11/2020 I was betting on 1000x that is less 65 roll using electron cash wallet. Most of the time I was betting more then 50 times in one go. In total I was betting more then 3k times but couldn’t hit less then 65 roll (1000x) . I spend around 4.5 BCH . I was thinking maybe they can manipulate roll otherwise how it could be possible not rolling even once betting more then 3k times for same number. I don't think their system is provably fair betting on 1000x.

I honestly do not quite understand why you think SathosiDice should not be provably fair... because you think you should have hit the multiplier at 3k bets? Could you please explain that in more detail?

In the link you posted with the empty Server Seed TX, "Outcome" also says "Win"?

[sukbir]

I am sorry mate it was wrong link, I have posted new one can you please take a look. I was saying how it could be possible not rolling dice less then 65 if you are rolling dice more than 3k times. I was thinking they can manipulate roll if there is no server transaction.  

[perla]

Looks like their inactive anymore on their thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.0 have you managed to contact their support? probably you wanted to post it too on their ANN thread maybe they could give you an explanation for that.

[BALIK]

Looks like their inactive anymore on their thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.0 have you managed to contact their support? probably you wanted to post it too on their ANN thread maybe they could give you an explanation for that.

That's probably the best thing to get through to them and see what explanation they offer you.

I understand your frustration that after 3000 rounds you still don't roll a number under 65, which given the odds it looks unrealistic but I wouldn't discount it entirely. Which is why it is best to try and see how their system is set up.

The fact that the transfer happens right away, Yh, I agree that's dodgy but I'm afraid because it is all internal not many people would know much out of hand like this.

[serjent05]

The fact that the transfer happens right away, Yh, I agree that's dodgy but I'm afraid because it is all internal not many people would know much out of hand like this.

I believe these instant transfers also happen to other Casinos.  I checked my deposit on the blockchain from time to time (while waiting for the fund to be credited) whenever I deposit to any Casino and I noticed that some of them transfer funds to other address instantly whenever a confirmation is done.  Though, the one that is very alarming is the server seed being empty.  It is indeed suspicious.

[sukbir]

Looks like their inactive anymore on their thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.0 have you managed to contact their support? probably you wanted to post it too on their ANN thread maybe they could give you an explanation for that.

Thank you for reply mate, I have posted on their thread and email to them as well. I will share my reply as well.

[sukbir]

The fact that the transfer happens right away, Yh, I agree that's dodgy but I'm afraid because it is all internal not many people would know much out of hand like this.

I believe these instant transfers also happen to other Casinos.  I checked my deposit on the blockchain from time to time (while waiting for the fund to be credited) whenever I deposit to any Casino and I noticed that some of them transfer funds to other address instantly whenever a confirmation is done.  Though, the one that is very alarming is the server seed being empty.  It is indeed suspicious.

Once I know about server seed tx being empty, I stop betting on SD and did some research. Yes it was more suspicious for me as well. I think they can manipulate dice roll if there is server seed tx is empty.   

[sukbir]

Looks like their inactive anymore on their thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.0 have you managed to contact their support? probably you wanted to post it too on their ANN thread maybe they could give you an explanation for that.

That's probably the best thing to get through to them and see what explanation they offer you.

I understand your frustration that after 3000 rounds you still don't roll a number under 65, which given the odds it looks unrealistic but I wouldn't discount it entirely. Which is why it is best to try and see how their system is set up.

The fact that the transfer happens right away, Yh, I agree that's dodgy but I'm afraid because it is all internal not many people would know much out of hand like this.

Thank you for reply mate, I send an email for them. I will share their reply as well.

[Ucy]

The fact that the transfer happens right away, Yh, I agree that's dodgy but I'm afraid because it is all internal not many people would know much out of hand like this.

I believe these instant transfers also happen to other Casinos.  I checked my deposit on the blockchain from time to time (while waiting for the fund to be credited) whenever I deposit to any Casino and I noticed that some of them transfer funds to other address instantly whenever a confirmation is done.  Though, the one that is very alarming is the server seed being empty.  It is indeed suspicious.

Once I know about server seed tx being empty, I stop betting on SD and did some research. Yes it was more suspicious for me as well. I think they can manipulate dice roll if there is server seed tx is empty.   

I guess they are meant to publish the "server seed tx" as proof they really used provable fair but they didn't publish it, right? You should also ask them why it wasn't published. If they claim provable fair on their site but didn't use the provable fair for your bets, that means the bet probably can't be trusted. But you should first all  inquire to be sure whether they use or didn't use the feature

[sukbir]

Hi guys, I recieved reply from this email admin@bitcoinvideocasino.com but they can't answer my question. I think they are liars..I am going to post exact email reply. They just copy and paste what was written in their site   https://satoshidice.com/fair/


Hi there,

Good day!
The games at satoshidice are 100% provably fair, and you don't have to take our word for it; you can independently verify the fairness of every single game you play by following the instructions at the 'Provably Fair' link at the top of any page on our site.

In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly. However, the hash of the secrets is released and forever recorded in the blockchain. After the secrets are release users can verify that preceeding bets were provably fair.

Each bet transaction that comes in is assigned to the secret key of the current day when it is first processed. In most cases this will be as soon as the transaction is broadcast on the bitcoin network. However it could be later if the system has some problems processing or an outage. All times are in UTC (GMT)

Best regards,
*****

[yahoo62278]

Hi guys, I recieved reply from this email admin@bitcoinvideocasino.com but they can't answer my question. I am going to post exact email reply.

Hi there,

Good day! 
The games at satoshidice are 100% provably fair, and you don't have to take our word for it; you can independently verify the fairness of every single game you play by following the instructions at the 'Provably Fair' link at the top of any page on our site.

In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly. However, the hash of the secrets is released and forever recorded in the blockchain. After the secrets are release users can verify that preceeding bets were provably fair.

Each bet transaction that comes in is assigned to the secret key of the current day when it is first processed. In most cases this will be as soon as the transaction is broadcast on the bitcoin network. However it could be later if the system has some problems processing or an outage. All times are in UTC (GMT)

Best regards,
*****

3000 rolls and no x1000 is not uncommon. If you go 9000+ you might have an issue. I've played on multiple sites where 3000-5000 is common.

[sukbir]

Hi guys, I recieved reply from this email admin@bitcoinvideocasino.com but they can't answer my question. I am going to post exact email reply.

Hi there,

Good day! 
The games at satoshidice are 100% provably fair, and you don't have to take our word for it; you can independently verify the fairness of every single game you play by following the instructions at the 'Provably Fair' link at the top of any page on our site.

In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly. However, the hash of the secrets is released and forever recorded in the blockchain. After the secrets are release users can verify that preceeding bets were provably fair.

Each bet transaction that comes in is assigned to the secret key of the current day when it is first processed. In most cases this will be as soon as the transaction is broadcast on the bitcoin network. However it could be later if the system has some problems processing or an outage. All times are in UTC (GMT)

Best regards,
*****

3000 rolls and no x1000 is not uncommon. If you go 9000+ you might have an issue. I've played on multiple sites where 3000-5000 is common.

Have you ever try to bet on Satoshidice.com?? I was not talking only about roll, Anybody can generate Server Seed Hash but it need to verify by server seed tx..but on that day it wasn't. Server Seed TX' was empty..I think they manipulate my bet roll.

[sukbir]

According to my email reply I think Satoshidice.com new owner is bitcoinvideocasino.com. I did research about their service but got all negative reviews here https://www.trustpilot.com/review/bitcoinvideocasino.com

[lebregone]

If you think that they are not fair at all then it will be good if you will stay away in their platform before you will lost some money again as you already experience a negative result base on your bets.

In my case, I really don't know how to verify their fareness and it will be better if there are sites out there that are willing to serve this kind of services that they will serve as third party in verifying the fairness of every site like the SatoshiDice so the players who don't have the technical knowledge in verifying the fairness can easily check whether that site is fair or not fair at all.

[Lakai01]

Have you ever try to bet on Satoshidice.com?? I was not talking only about roll, Anybody can generate Server Seed Hash but it need to verify by server seed tx..but on that day it wasn't. Server Seed TX' was empty..I think they manipulate my bet roll.

SatoshiDice always releases the server seed afterwards, right? Probably that's why it's empty there, at least both links you sent are empty.
You can follow the release of the Server Seed here:

https://satoshidice.com/fair

Unfortunately I couldn't find a verifier for the bets on the fly, and btcgosu.com does not support SatoshiDice. Otherwise it would have been very easy to check the output.

[webtricks]

I have looked into your case in detail and also researched about SatoshiDice. Here are my findings:

1. You are right about the txid. You placed bet on 25th and but the server seed for 25/11/2020 is not recorded on the blockchain as per 'Fair' page. satoshidice.com/fair page is showing 'undefined' link for 25th November. It could be honest mistake or it could be intentional as well. Since, it is recorded as 'undefined' on the fair page, all subsequent bets placed on 25th Nov are showing empty 'Server Seed Tx' column (classic web development problem). But even if the server seed hash was not recorded on the blockchain, it is present on 'Fair' page since 23rd November which is enough to determine that the server seed is not manipulated on the go.


2. About 3K bets and not hitting the value below 65, well that's not impossible. The odds of hitting value below 65 is just 0.09918%. So, the probability of not getting value below 65 in 3000 bets is roughly equals to not getting 'Heads' after tossing a coin 6-times in a row. The chance of this happening is 1.5625%. Less probability but it can happen once in 64 times.


3. Now comes the most important question - Is SatoshiDice Provably Fair. If yes then how to verify? I am trying to determine the answer to this question from last one hour and my findings are not positive. Let me explain why -

The old SatoshiDice had the following mechanism to calculate the dice roll:

Calculate the hash using HMAC-SHA256 algorithm using Transaction Hash as 'message' input and Server Seed as 'Secret'. Then, take the first 4 characters of hexadecimal string, convert it to decimal and the value will be between "0x0000 to 0xffff" or "0 to 65535".

But the same system is not possible in new SatoshiDice because user can send number of outputs to the SD's address and each output will be treated as different bet. Like in your case, you have sent 91 outputs to the deposit address and each output is assumed as new bet (Tx Id: https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/254f030a3ae3691e90c09de297eae6d34d3485fdfc3acf47da04c9c82bb4fc62). But since the Transaction Hash of each output is same, it is sure that Transaction Hash alone can't be used as 'message' input in the HMAC-SHA256 algorithm in the new SatoshiDice script.

To solve the problem, they have brought new variable in the scene - 'Random Number Seed' and this is where things can get dirty. User has no control over this variable. Also unlike Server Seed, random number seed is chosen after user has placed the bet. Now, site has complete control over this variable and can manipulate this variable so user loses the bet.

However, I still haven't figured out what exactly is used as 'message' input in new SatoshiDice. I tried few combo like 'Random Number Seed', Random Seed + Transaction Hash', etc. but none of the result matches the dice roll shown on SatoshiDice for any bet. Also, they haven't provided default provably fair script on the site, which is quite weird. So, I contacted the site support to provide me the exact script they are using to calculate the roll. I already got the reply and the contact person said that he will contact the admins and get me the exact script soon. Once I will have the script, I will check if 'Random Number Seed' is used in the calculation of dice roll or not. And if Random Number Seed is used in determining result in any way then the site is not provably fair and it may already be cheating you.

I will post the update here once I get the next reply.

In my case, I really don't know how to verify their fareness and it will be better if there are sites out there that are willing to serve this kind of services that they will serve as third party in verifying the fairness of every site like the SatoshiDice so the players who don't have the technical knowledge in verifying the fairness can easily check whether that site is fair or not fair at all.

There's already a site committed to provide this service. Check out - https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier. The verifier currently has 27 casinos and 53 games. If you don't find the casino/game you are looking for, you can suggest the addition of the casino in this thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5262141.0 and it will be added to the verifier shortly.

Unfortunately I couldn't find a verifier for the bets on the fly, and btcgosu.com does not support SatoshiDice. Otherwise it would have been very easy to check the output.

You won't find any because the provably fair script of SatoshiDice is not public so no one knows how they actually calculate the bet result. I already asked them for the script and if they provide then I will update here, how to verify SatoshiDice bets.

By the way, I am never going to add a casino on the GOSU verifier that solely uses BCH as the currency especially when the casino is this negative about Bitcoin:

Quote from satoshidice.com
 "On August 1st, Bitcoin forked into two different versions of Bitcoin. One is still called Bitcoin, although it is significantly different than what Satoshi described in the original white paper. ".

[kryptqnick]

Thanks for a detailed review, webtricks! It's an interesting development of this case which initially did not seem bad for the casino. I think that a thread in the reputation section wouldn't hurt to raise awareness in the community, and the post of webtricks should be quoted there to show that someone already looked into this and found weak points.
The fact that there are issues and the website's not currently provably fair should raise concerns, but it doesn't mean they're scammers right away, though. It would be great if they could react to this explanation by explaining what's going on and subsequently improving the system.

[sukbir]

I have looked into your case in detail and also researched about SatoshiDice. Here are my findings:

1. You are right about the txid. You placed bet on 25th and but the server seed for 25/11/2020 is not recorded on the blockchain as per 'Fair' page. satoshidice.com/fair page is showing 'undefined' link for 25th November. It could be honest mistake or it could be intentional as well. Since, it is recorded as 'undefined' on the fair page, all subsequent bets placed on 25th Nov are showing empty 'Server Seed Tx' column (classic web development problem). But even if the server seed hash was not recorded on the blockchain, it is present on 'Fair' page since 23rd November which is enough to determine that the server seed is not manipulated on the go.


2. About 3K bets and not hitting the value below 65, well that's not impossible. The odds of hitting value below 65 is just 0.09918%. So, the probability of not getting value below 65 in 3000 bets is roughly equals to not getting 'Heads' after tossing a coin 6-times in a row. The chance of this happening is 1.5625%. Less probability but it can happen once in 64 times.


3. Now comes the most important question - Is SatoshiDice Provably Fair. If yes then how to verify? I am trying to determine the answer to this question from last one hour and my findings are not positive. Let me explain why -

The old SatoshiDice had the following mechanism to calculate the dice roll:

Calculate the hash using HMAC-SHA256 algorithm using Transaction Hash as 'message' input and Server Seed as 'Secret'. Then, take the first 4 characters of hexadecimal string, convert it to decimal and the value will be between "0x0000 to 0xffff" or "0 to 65535".

But the same system is not possible in new SatoshiDice because user can send number of outputs to the SD's address and each output will be treated as different bet. Like in your case, you have sent 91 outputs to the deposit address and each output is assumed as new bet (Tx Id: https://explorer.bitcoin.com/bch/tx/254f030a3ae3691e90c09de297eae6d34d3485fdfc3acf47da04c9c82bb4fc62). But since the Transaction Hash of each output is same, it is sure that Transaction Hash alone can't be used as 'message' input in the HMAC-SHA256 algorithm in the new SatoshiDice script.

To solve the problem, they have brought new variable in the scene - 'Random Number Seed' and this is where things can get dirty. User has no control over this variable. Also unlike Server Seed, random number seed is chosen after user has placed the bet. Now, site has complete control over this variable and can manipulate this variable so user loses the bet.

However, I still haven't figured out what exactly is used as 'message' input in new SatoshiDice. I tried few combo like 'Random Number Seed', Random Seed + Transaction Hash', etc. but none of the result matches the dice roll shown on SatoshiDice for any bet. Also, they haven't provided default provably fair script on the site, which is quite weird. So, I contacted the site support to provide me the exact script they are using to calculate the roll. I already got the reply and the contact person said that he will contact the admins and get me the exact script soon. Once I will have the script, I will check if 'Random Number Seed' is used in the calculation of dice roll or not. And if Random Number Seed is used in determining result in any way then the site is not provably fair and it may already be cheating you.

I will post the update here once I get the next reply.

In my case, I really don't know how to verify their fareness and it will be better if there are sites out there that are willing to serve this kind of services that they will serve as third party in verifying the fairness of every site like the SatoshiDice so the players who don't have the technical knowledge in verifying the fairness can easily check whether that site is fair or not fair at all.

There's already a site committed to provide this service. Check out - https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier. The verifier currently has 27 casinos and 53 games. If you don't find the casino/game you are looking for, you can suggest the addition of the casino in this thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5262141.0 and it will be added to the verifier shortly.

Unfortunately I couldn't find a verifier for the bets on the fly, and btcgosu.com does not support SatoshiDice. Otherwise it would have been very easy to check the output.

You won't find any because the provably fair script of SatoshiDice is not public so no one knows how they actually calculate the bet result. I already asked them for the script and if they provide then I will update here, how to verify SatoshiDice bets.

By the way, I am never going to add a casino on the GOSU verifier that solely uses BCH as the currency especially when the casino is this negative about Bitcoin:

Quote from satoshidice.com
 "On August 1st, Bitcoin forked into two different versions of Bitcoin. One is still called Bitcoin, although it is significantly different than what Satoshi described in the original white paper. ".

Thank you for your time and research about my case. Could you please check this thread reply by SD staff on 24 Feb. 2018 regarding "How to verify the fairness of our system": https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77870.5440 I think it will help you for further research.  

I am sure they are not going to refund me single pence. I hope it will aware community about Satoshidice.com provably fair..

[100bitcoin]

Thank you for your time and research about my case. I am sure they are not going to refund me single pence. I hope it will aware community about Satoshidice.com provably fair..

If you seriously think that you have been cheated by SatoshiDice, you should create a Scam Accusation @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=83.0. Be sure to provide enough evidence. Remember, if it is found that your allegation is baseless, you may be permanently tagged as a scammer.