fillippone (OP)
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December 03, 2020, 02:22:55 PM Last edit: May 16, 2023, 12:57:52 AM by fillippone Merited by tyz (3), Paolo.Demidov (3), Karartma1 (1) |
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Competition is heating up in Europe, while the US are Hostages of Grayscale waitign for their first ETF: Valour Launches World's First Fee-Free Bitcoin Exchange Traded Product (ETP)New ETP, Bitcoin Zero, will enable institutions and individuals to invest in Bitcoin in a similar way to ETFs and shares Trading and owning Bitcoin Zero will not incur management fees Bitcoin Zero is the first of several innovative products Valour plans to bring to market Trading in Bitcoin Zero to begin on December 3, 2020 After a few other Bitcoin ETP (Exchange Traded Products) came to Europe, a new product with zero management fee will begin trading today the Stockholm Nordic Growth Market stock exchange. The ETP will come in two Flavours, SEK and EUR traded products, both with SEK as Base Currency Bitcoin Zero On Valour WebsiteLink to ProspectusLink to Bitcoin Zero final terms
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sheenshane
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December 03, 2020, 04:56:31 PM |
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Great news, thank you for sharing this.
This is another breakthrough for Bitcoin, considering that Valour also acquires bitcoin now as an asset and provided the Bitcoin Zero for investors which denotes that they are now embracing its worth. The bitcoin zero as I see it isn't bad that they offer it with zero management fee.
Though I'm not sure if it will be for good or maybe just for the initial offering. We can't tell if the US right now is also cooking something which could also lead to a better perspective towards bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies in 2021.
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Rruchi man
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December 06, 2020, 09:12:28 AM |
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In a year where BTC has tripled it's original value. This is a very important move, as his will encourage investors to further make investments and engagement with the Cryptocurrency
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December 06, 2020, 10:14:58 AM Merited by fillippone (2) |
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It always concerns me to see the race to zero when talking about financial related products. At some point along the way the manager of this ETF has to be making money off you and I actually prefer when they tell you up front where they make their money without burying it in the fine print. I am more than happy to pay a small fee in return for the knowledge that someone has a financial incentive to protect my money over the long term.
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▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██████▄▄ ████████████████ ▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀█████ ████████▌███▐████ ▄▄▄▄█████▄▄▄█████ ████████████████ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▀▀ | LLBIT | | | 4,000+ GAMES███████████████████ ██████████▀▄▀▀▀████ ████████▀▄▀██░░░███ ██████▀▄███▄▀█▄▄▄██ ███▀▀▀▀▀▀█▀▀▀▀▀▀███ ██░░░░░░░░█░░░░░░██ ██▄░░░░░░░█░░░░░▄██ ███▄░░░░▄█▄▄▄▄▄████ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ | █████████ ▀████████ ░░▀██████ ░░░░▀████ ░░░░░░███ ▄░░░░░███ ▀█▄▄▄████ ░░▀▀█████ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ | █████████ ░░░▀▀████ ██▄▄▀░███ █░░█▄░░██ ░████▀▀██ █░░█▀░░██ ██▀▀▄░███ ░░░▄▄████ ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ |
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Karartma1
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December 06, 2020, 10:41:27 AM Merited by fillippone (2) |
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Like buying shares, that's it. The financial jurassic circus is opening up all these old jurassic financial instruments to give some sort of bitcoin exposure to old financial riches. If that's all we can have to reach moon, so be it. I will always stick to my glourious unspent transaction outputs. ![Cool](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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fillippone (OP)
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December 06, 2020, 02:37:32 PM |
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It always concerns me to see the race to zero when talking about financial related products. At some point along the way the manager of this ETF has to be making money off you <...>
Just a little nitpick here: this is not an ETF, it is an ETP. It actually it is a certificate. A certificate is a financial structured product (basically a zero coupon bond and an option) that doesn’t include any management fee. The issuer and the market makers of this product rely on other sources of income, like for example the bid-offer spread in the market. <...> I will always stick to my glourious unspent transaction outputs. ![Cool](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cool.gif) You are one of the few. Not everyone is in your privileged position. There are lots of investors who cannot, simply, hold coins. For those people the only way is trough financial structures like this one or other similar products (BTCE, Grayscale or other Exchange Traded Funds).
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hatshepsut93
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December 06, 2020, 10:12:11 PM |
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I think it's good to see investors having more and more options how to trade Bitcoin, competition is something that we should welcome, but how do they make money if they have zero fees? I hope there's no hidden fees or other tricky mechanisms that in the end overcharge investors. Like buying shares, that's it. The financial jurassic circus is opening up all these old jurassic financial instruments to give some sort of bitcoin exposure to old financial riches. If that's all we can have to reach moon, so be it. I will always stick to my glourious unspent transaction outputs. ![Cool](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cool.gif) I'd say it's too early to call the non-crypto markets "old jurassic", there's really no alternative to them. DeFi is a failure, DEX ecosystem is just a tiny beta-test, Bitcoin itself is only an asset or a currency, it can't do everything.
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Karartma1
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December 07, 2020, 02:57:40 PM |
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I guess what I wrote was clear because I am only saying that instead of leveraging the real deal (bitcoin as an asset) they are re-branding it for the oldies so that they are more accustomed to something they already know. Being a bitcoiner I will stick to the real deal leaving them playing with the synthetic drug. Easy. I believe that not grasping the very characteristics for investing in bitcoin (scarcity, censorship resistance, easy transferability...) is a big mistake.
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BigBoy89
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December 07, 2020, 11:19:46 PM |
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Interesting to see an ETP with 0% management and year fees, but I'm always concerned when I see something being marketed as Free.
Where is the catch, how are they making money?
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Ayiranorea
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December 07, 2020, 11:35:51 PM |
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I guess what I wrote was clear because I am only saying that instead of leveraging the real deal (bitcoin as an asset) they are re-branding it for the oldies so that they are more accustomed to something they already know. Being a bitcoiner I will stick to the real deal leaving them playing with the synthetic drug. Easy. I believe that not grasping the very characteristics for investing in bitcoin (scarcity, censorship resistance, easy transferability...) is a big mistake.
When it gets rebranding under custody, does the true value of bitcoin gets manipulated for the rebranded one. As mentioned it is made for the old Riches to get into the market. As they're much into traditional form of investments, this form will give way for them. I do believe this to create something bad to the cryptomarket.
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exstasie
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December 08, 2020, 11:28:37 AM |
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I think it's good to see investors having more and more options how to trade Bitcoin, competition is something that we should welcome, but how do they make money if they have zero fees? I hope there's no hidden fees or other tricky mechanisms that in the end overcharge investors. There are definitely hidden fees. If you read the prospectus, there are daily management fees subtracted from the reference value of the certificates. They just do it in a sneaky way so they can say there no fees, when in fact the fees are higher than Grayscale: 1.4. General description of Certificates
The Certificates are non-equity linked securities which synthetically track the performance of the price of Bitcoin in USD less a fee component.
Aggregate daily management fee subtracted (2.5% per annum) The way they wrote the prospectus was deceptive too. All the examples in Section 1.8 (which are supposed to show how returns work on this product) include a foreign exchange rate change that conveniently hides the management fee. I'm not impressed!
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fillippone (OP)
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December 08, 2020, 11:45:04 AM |
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I think it's good to see investors having more and more options how to trade Bitcoin, competition is something that we should welcome, but how do they make money if they have zero fees? I hope there's no hidden fees or other tricky mechanisms that in the end overcharge investors. There are definitely hidden fees. If you read the prospectus, there are daily management fees subtracted from the reference value of the certificates. They just do it in a sneaky way so they can say there no fees, when in fact the fees are higher than Grayscale: 1.4. General description of Certificates
The Certificates are non-equity linked securities which synthetically track the performance of the price of Bitcoin in USD less a fee component.
Aggregate daily management fee subtracted (2.5% per annum) The way they wrote the prospectus was deceptive too. All the examples in Section 1.8 (which are supposed to show how returns work on this product) include a foreign exchange rate change that conveniently hides the management fee. I'm not impressed! Very Good find. Apparently I read the prospect too quickly, and was complacent with the fact many other certificates are actually free of management fees. 2.5% is outrageous.
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drlukacs
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December 08, 2020, 06:35:27 PM |
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In a year where BTC has tripled it's original value. This is a very important move, as his will encourage investors to further make investments and engagement with the Cryptocurrency
It seems that you have not read the article carefully, the below paragraph has been adjusted and management fee is even higher than Grayscale. So reread the article and give your true point of view. Valor is really confusing the Crypto community at the moment, and this is a big minus to me for Valor's reputation. And be sure not to shill this news unless you are unfamiliar with Valor's plot. Thanks. ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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fillippone (OP)
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December 08, 2020, 09:50:06 PM Last edit: May 16, 2023, 12:55:27 AM by fillippone Merited by El duderino_ (2) |
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Well, things escalated quickly. First I used my Twitter account to cast shame on Valour https://twitter.com/fillippone1/status/1336279832456548353?s=20But they answered almost immediately: https://twitter.com/ValourGlobal/status/1336324246650273793?s=20So yes, fees are actually zero as you can see from Bitcoin Zero final terms, where we read: ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftalkimg.com%2Fimages%2F2023%2F05%2F16%2Fblobf71a90271cca1ef3.jpeg&t=665&c=GXVD8ktKTwtKeQ) This is why I had miss the information when I first checked. It’s a common practice for certificates issuers to have a “master prospectus” that fixes the general rules, only to be amended, where necessary, by each certificate final terms. So each certificate is ruled by the master prospectus integrated by the rules in the final terms, that have an higher priority on the certificate itself. Case closed
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October 27, 2021, 10:08:32 AM Last edit: October 27, 2021, 10:23:06 AM by paxmao Merited by fillippone (3) |
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Good news. Most countries in the west do allow investing in other jurisdictions, so effectively Europe may be taking the lead and being less restrictive than the US. I think that the real revolution would come from China actually allowing their citizens to invest their money safety. I obviously mean the average citizen. But meanwhile, we will now have another alternative. I really hope it gets approved to be used in tax wrappers in different states.
Quick question, when I see zero fees my next question is how do they earn their living? What would I pay for?
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so98nn
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October 31, 2021, 11:57:13 AM |
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Excellent but I’m not sure if this instrument will be available to trade globally? I mean this would be by means of trading platform so in the end it has to be international one I guess?
Or will it be still available through normal crypto exchanges who also offers the real world trading instrument ?
Can anyone also shed some light on difference between ETF and ETP. Just the alternate terms or they hold the bigger meaning in themselves.
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Lucius
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October 31, 2021, 03:24:34 PM |
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I think that the real revolution would come from China actually allowing their citizens to invest their money safety. I obviously mean the average citizen.
Talking about China in that context is completely unthinkable, do you expect the Chinese Communist Party to allow the average resident of their country to practice free will in anything, let alone do with their money what they want? You have not had the misfortune to live in communism, but those who are like me will only say that it is another word for hell on earth. Everything China has done towards Bitcoin is a clear indication of their intentions, and they may become the world's first economic power, but their citizens are light years away from what some Western countries have today.
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tyz
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October 31, 2021, 03:32:23 PM Merited by fillippone (3) |
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The problem with such ETP products is that they are certificates. The underlying value (i.e. Bitcoin) is not deposited as collateral. If the issuer goes bankrupt, the certificates become worthless. Just as with many previous exchange-traded products such as ETNs (exchange-traded notes).
The situation is different with ETFs, where the underlying value is deposited physically or it is replicated synthetically with other products (e.g. shares). Unfortuantely, many do not know the difference and often equate ETPs and ETNs with ETFs.
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fillippone (OP)
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October 31, 2021, 04:32:20 PM |
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Unfortuantely, many do not know the difference and often equate ETPs and ETNs with ETFs.
Indeed. Certificates bear the issuer’s credit risk. Usually bigger firms issue those certificate via a dedicated, credit immaculate vehicle. But your point is totally correct.
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