OTC Over The Counter BTC Trading?

[fauzan123]

If we refer to the principle of annual finance, what happens is the movement of bitcoin with certainty of decline due to annual withdrawals, of course we cannot just let go of this because the bitcoin base itself is also financial so I think it is unlikely that this will happen from this concept.

The next possibility is a disaster that allows digital problems to occur, such as hacking that can happen at any time. Of course, it will have an impact if people or large exchanges are being hijacked so that the market influence will also fluctuate.

[1715045267]

1715045267

[1715045267]

1715045267

[1715045267]

1715045267

[1715045267]

1715045267

[1715045267]

1715045267

[aesma]

Okay you think these big institutions are not using OTC but instead are using prime Versions of Exchanges like Coinbase prime, Binance Prime to break a big order into 1000's of smaller orders that is spread over days to get the order filled by us retail sellers?

But are we retail sellers on the prime versions of exchanges to fill these institutional buy orders?

If they break a big order into 1000's of smaller buy orders then why cant they do it on a normal exchange that we retail investors use? Its confusing.

Is there a cross-platform compatibility for orders on either of these exchanges that is both prime & non-prime? For example a big institutional buy order on prime will get filled by 1000s of smaller retail sellers on the normal non-prime exchange?

Lastly will mega rich institutional buyers ever use decentralised exchanges if theres lots of liquidity on there?

I'm just going from what DdmrDdmr said upthread about what MicroStrategy said they did, I have no insight on how these "prime" exchanges work. It would be interesting to know the answer, if indeed they're completely separate exchanges, then people on there know what's going on before the rest of us, and can probably act on mainstream exchanges to profit.

[very_452001]

What indicators will we see if these big new players that entered the btc game have sold their bitcoins later on?

[aesma]

That's the 1000 BTC question isn't it ?

First I would think the price would have to move one way or the other. These people didn't enter to make small gains, and on the opposite they probably can tolerate the price going quite a long way down. So I wouldn't worry about them selling until the price is quite higher, at the very least 30000$. But that's just a feeling.

[very_452001]

That's the 1000 BTC question isn't it ?

First I would think the price would have to move one way or the other. These people didn't enter to make small gains, and on the opposite they probably can tolerate the price going quite a long way down. So I wouldn't worry about them selling until the price is quite higher, at the very least 30000$. But that's just a feeling.

You think that the big institutional investors, hedge funds, the big players with big money that supposedly driving this bull market price with OTC trades that doesn't register on the market price will sell at $30k?

I asked the same question over & over again but no one is giving a clear answer, that is whether OTC trades or trades done on prime versions of exchanges like Coinbase Pro Prime only for big pocket investors not retail investors like us register on the market price pushing the price up? If NO then who is driving the price of BTC up, is it us retail investors?


If NO to above question then how do we know these big pocket players are exiting or selling their btc's they recently bought if their buying in the 1st place doesn't register on the market place? If buying doesn't register on the market price then selling wont either

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

You can get trade data and charts for OTC market on the site: https://www.otcmarkets.com

If you want to get chart and trade data on Grayscale, please use this link: https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/GBTC/overview
The site gives the table and you can export it to Excel.

[very_452001]

You can get trade data and charts for OTC market on the site: https://www.otcmarkets.com

If you want to get chart and trade data on Grayscale, please use this link: https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/GBTC/overview
The site gives the table and you can export it to Excel.

Thanks for the links.

Great can you show us in the Grayscale Bitcoin Holdings of btc positions that have been increased or decreased at what dates. What data are we suppose to look at in that GBTC link?

[kryptqnick]

Okay coming back here how do we know when Hedge funds and the big institutions start selling their bitcoins holdings? If its sold over OTC then that wont register bearish on the bitcoin market price right?

What indicators are there to see whether we know these big players have self off their 1000s of bitcoins? I'm talking about early indicators not articles in the wall street journal where that is a late indicator and by then btc price is already crashed. Best to sell before the crash.

These big players wont HODL even when btc crashes otherwise their rich clients will get angry at them and they could lose business & their clients right?

If they sell/buy over the counter, there's no one or a few huge orders on the exchange that could trigger big price changes. If the price is unaffected by this stuff, why do you still say that we need to know early indicators of this happening because the price might crash? And it's actually often the rich wallets that keep hodling through the hard times because if they have tons of BTC, they probably believe in it, and they can afford to risk and to wait. Small hodlers who just bought some BTC and wanted to get rich, but are now losing money, engage in panic selling. I still don't believe the "whale manipulation" narrative tbh.

[very_452001]

Okay coming back here how do we know when Hedge funds and the big institutions start selling their bitcoins holdings? If its sold over OTC then that wont register bearish on the bitcoin market price right?

What indicators are there to see whether we know these big players have self off their 1000s of bitcoins? I'm talking about early indicators not articles in the wall street journal where that is a late indicator and by then btc price is already crashed. Best to sell before the crash.

These big players wont HODL even when btc crashes otherwise their rich clients will get angry at them and they could lose business & their clients right?

If they sell/buy over the counter, there's no one or a few huge orders on the exchange that could trigger big price changes. If the price is unaffected by this stuff, why do you still say that we need to know early indicators of this happening because the price might crash? And it's actually often the rich wallets that keep hodling through the hard times because if they have tons of BTC, they probably believe in it, and they can afford to risk and to wait. Small hodlers who just bought some BTC and wanted to get rich, but are now losing money, engage in panic selling. I still don't believe the "whale manipulation" narrative tbh.

Theres individual whales and theres institutions/hedge funds. Theres a huge difference between these two. One can afford the risk of btc crashing that is the big whale while the other entity that is institutions that have clients to look after that don't like to see their btc portfolios go down when btc crashes.

Institutions/hedge funds best interests is caring for their client portfolios or they will lose clients.

For example if MicroStrategy believe btc has reached an all time last new high before it crashes into a 3 year consolidating bear market then they will sell at that last high profiting their clients & shareholders otherwise risk losing their shareholders and clients.

MicroStrategy share price is at all time high because shareholders are buying their stock because of the bitcoin bullish market. MicroStrategy is making more money through their shareholders than bitcoin.

You agree?

[pixie85]

MicroStrategy share price is at all time high because shareholders are buying their stock because of the bitcoin bullish market. MicroStrategy is making more money through their shareholders than bitcoin.

You agree?

This is possible because share purchases don't mean an immediate bitcoin purchase.

It's not like there's a bot there trading every dollar they earn for bitcoin or exchanging invested money into bitcoin in real time.

That's even better though. If they're earning more money thanks to the bull market they become stronger as a company and more popular. A company that made a lot of money through bitcoin is going to raise interest among other companies.

[Tstar]

There is no "faith that BTC" here.

People buy, people sell, people are doing business and monetizing. Not everyone is in crypto for HODL and other acronyms.
Many people see crypto as a modern way to achieve higher APY for their assets.

[figmentofmyass]

You think that the big institutional investors, hedge funds, the big players with big money that supposedly driving this bull market price with OTC trades that doesn't register on the market price will sell at $30k?

I asked the same question over & over again but no one is giving a clear answer, that is whether OTC trades or trades done on prime versions of exchanges like Coinbase Pro Prime only for big pocket investors not retail investors like us register on the market price pushing the price up? If NO then who is driving the price of BTC up, is it us retail investors?

there isn't some static permanently available amount of OTC bitcoins for sale. if a few investors buy up all the available coins on the OTC market (as grayscale, square, paypal, microstrategy, etc have been doing all quarter) then OTC demand will spill over onto exchanges and literally push prices up.

in fact, coinbase reported that microstrategy's orders were too large to handle OTC---they were also sourcing coins directly from exchanges. https://blog.coinbase.com/coinbase-is-helping-corporate-companies-diversify-with-crypto-444e8d91ebca

this is how institutions push price up. they use brokers who find liquidity at the best possible price, whether that comes from OTC desks, market makers, exchanges, or whatever.

[CaVO32]

MicroStrategy share price is at all time high because shareholders are buying their stock because of the bitcoin bullish market. MicroStrategy is making more money through their shareholders than bitcoin.

You agree?

This is possible because share purchases don't mean an immediate bitcoin purchase.

It's not like there's a bot there trading every dollar they earn for bitcoin or exchanging invested money into bitcoin in real time.

That's even better though. If they're earning more money thanks to the bull market they become stronger as a company and more popular. A company that made a lot of money through bitcoin is going to raise interest among other companies.

Stakeholders should be very careful and should closely follow the market as you can't expect that it will be the continuous gain all throughout. There will be stopping point or decrease of price in the market at some point, but we don't know when. Need to be careful these days.

[very_452001]

MicroStrategy share price is at all time high because shareholders are buying their stock because of the bitcoin bullish market. MicroStrategy is making more money through their shareholders than bitcoin.

You agree?

This is possible because share purchases don't mean an immediate bitcoin purchase.

It's not like there's a bot there trading every dollar they earn for bitcoin or exchanging invested money into bitcoin in real time.

That's even better though. If they're earning more money thanks to the bull market they become stronger as a company and more popular. A company that made a lot of money through bitcoin is going to raise interest among other companies.

Investors are buying stock/shares of MicroStrategy because the company has a good fundamental that is its balance sheet now contain bitcoins that can save the company if investors and shareholders believe cash is inflationary and bitcoin is deflationary. That's why their share price is at all time high because of that belief of paper cash becoming worthless and bitcoins are worth its value because its a rare asset.

Tesla has a lot of cash on their balance sheet but no bitcoins however if cash becomes worthless then the company can die in a instant because you cant make tesla's with worthless cash paper money or pay employees with it. Of course robots will do the factory work for free but they require energy that isnt free and robots are not free to begin with.

The whole system is based on cash fiat because too much faith is backing it and its a self fulfilled prophecy cash is. If the $dollar index crashes to 0 then can people's faith in the dollar still bring it back to life even though its worth 0 like kids toy play money where we use our imagination and believe it has value?

Or maybe 'The Great Reset' is designed on purpose to destroy fiat cash resetting it to 0 then we move onto this new CBDC system that will not be based on Interest rates like the old system that the Knight Templars have created but instead like a real time system because everything is online nowadays where economic data is monitored live in real time and instruments can be adjusted in real time to influence the economy into either borrowing/spending currency economy or a saving currency economy or a social reward system where citizens get rewarded higher value CBDC's for emitting less Co2 or punished with less value CBDC's for producing more Co2. A CBDC that can have 2 different simultaneous values to it so no need for interest rates or inflation targets.


Okay I looked into GBTC Grayscale Bitcoin Trust. Price per Share is around $32 now. How many Satoshis does $32 gets you nowadays and why is GBTC charging 25-30% premium over spot market price  ?

Why is Grayscale treating BTC like physical gold/silver where they require to charge a premium over spot to cover for storage vault fees, insurance and such? What the heck, bitcoin is digital that can be stored easily on a cold storage wallet where hackers cant access. Also private keys can be written down easily on paper so why such a huge premium for a asset like bitcoin that is so easy to hold yourself. Unlike gold where its hard to store and takes up space because its physical and hard to transport.

Also in the following link where do I go to see whether GBTC has increased or decreased their bitcoin holdings?:

https://www.otcmarkets.com/stock/GBTC/overview

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[acener]

Just to confirm big institutions like MicroStrategy, Paypal etc. are buying 1000's of Bitcoins not off exchanges like Coinbase where the small retail investors go, but they buy over OTC?

How are they buying 1000s of BTC when there is a shortage in BTC everyone claiming?

Just to confirm OTC trading does not affect or move the market price no matter how big the transaction is?

Who are the whales that have 1000s of BTC dumping selling it on the OTC desk? Why these whales don't have faith that BTC will go higher than 20k?

OTC I once watch a video about it and if my understanding is correct,
OTC doesn't affect the price on the chart because the site took out the orders at the stated price of their costumer.
It still affect the supply I just think that they keep it low in the chart like how the government hides their kickback (LOL).
They would took out fresh order when and wouldn't show it on the chart or transactions.
I think they are doing it little by little so it wouldn't be obvious.

[very_452001]

Just to confirm big institutions like MicroStrategy, Paypal etc. are buying 1000's of Bitcoins not off exchanges like Coinbase where the small retail investors go, but they buy over OTC?

How are they buying 1000s of BTC when there is a shortage in BTC everyone claiming?

Just to confirm OTC trading does not affect or move the market price no matter how big the transaction is?

Who are the whales that have 1000s of BTC dumping selling it on the OTC desk? Why these whales don't have faith that BTC will go higher than 20k?

OTC I once watch a video about it and if my understanding is correct,
OTC doesn't affect the price on the chart because the site took out the orders at the stated price of their costumer.
It still affect the supply I just think that they keep it low in the chart like how the government hides their kickback (LOL).
They would took out fresh order when and wouldn't show it on the chart or transactions.
I think they are doing it little by little so it wouldn't be obvious.

Well its blatantly obvious now because were in a massive bull run now that everybody knows and is excited about.


What about the Counterparty Risk of buying BTC ETC paper contracts through for example GrayScale?

What if Grayscale don't have enough bitcoins to backup the btc paper contracts that they issued out to clients?

What if Grayscale becomes a btc bank and practices fractional reserve lending like most fiat banks do where they lend out bitcoin paper contracts that dont actually exist or some complex bitcoin derivative?

Who audits and verifies Grayscale Bitcoin Holdings?

I thought the true purpose of bitcoin is be your own bank so whats up with all these bitcoin institutions popping up now that can really damage bitcoin reputation and price if there was some scandal like the SEC case allegation against ripple xrp 








Also what happen to those regular 'China Ban Bitcoins FUD' announcements I remember during the 2017 btc bull market to get btc down each time 30% cheaper corrections so they can buy it cheaper then continue the bull rally.

Wont we get any 'Ban Bitcoin Announcement FUD' in this 2021 btc bull rally so buyers can get btc cheaper? It always happens in a btc bull market 

Will Biden democrats ban Bitcoin this year so we can buy in at cheaper prices or are democrats cool with bitcoin?


From the bitcoin halving last year the max bitcoin we can mine per day 24hrs is around 900 bitcoins per day and that gets cut in half in 2024 to 450 per day.

Question is how these institutions are buying thousands of bitcoins in a day when the max is 900? Grayscale bought over 5000 bitcoins I believe today.

We are being told supply is running dry on exchanges and somehow they manage to get over 5000 bitcoins It looks like 1 miner is mining 900 x 7 days = 6300 btc's mined in a week then all sold to grayscale at the end of the working week. It doesn't make any sense.

When the narrative is supply is running out and people moving btc's off of exchanges for hodling then it sounds like these institutions must be buying directly from the miners off market?

China got half the hash rate meaning china selling 450 bitcoins daily to these mega institutions in the west

Isn't bitcoin about bringing banking to the poor in poor countries and isn't bitcoin suppose to be evenly distributed worldwide so there's a fair share of bitcoins for everyone who needs it instead of being gobbled up by the mega rich few? Bitcoin suppose to change the financial world right making if fair for everyone.


Somebody please try to make sense as it doesn't add up and if its done off market then who's running this pricing action where btc is consolidating?


Hi coming back to thread, are these big institutions buying bitcoins with USDT tether or straight up cash from their cash reserves?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[Coinsfera]

Hi coming back to thread, are these big institutions buying bitcoins with USDT tether or straight up cash from their cash reserves?

In the fiat-crypto money flow representation, which has become widespread recently, we can see that the main share flow to Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies belongs to US Dollar, Japanese Yen, and at the third place Tether.

[very_452001]

Still don't understand how the big players getting huge amounts of bitcoins nowadays when there is suppose to be a btc supply liquidity crisis on exchanges now 

Okay there's brand new 900 bitcoins mined everyday so that's 6300 bitcoins available to buy per week if miners are not hodling.

Yet some rich dude named Elon Musk managed to buy around 39,500 bitcoins in a day. Whos supplying the volume? Big whales who hodl btc for 10+ years who bought tens of thousands of btc for pennies back in 2010?

[very_452001]

Coming back here with few more questions:

- During Silk Road operation on the Dark Web, how many bitcoins in total volume has been transacted on the dark web out of 21 million?

- All those big institutions that were buying huge amount of bitcoins, For example Microstrategy buying nearly 100,000 bitcoins. Out of that 100,000 btc how many originated from the dark web?

- Everyone saying that all transactions can be traced and tracked back to the root for Bitcoin on its blockchain meaning bitcoin is non-fungible. So can governments/exchanges/shops blacklist certain bitcoins that have been associated with a btc address found on the darkweb? Like for example websites blacklisting VPN servers so VPN doesn't work on those sites.

- OTC Bitcoin buying guarantees that the institutions are buying clean bitcoins hence institutions chose OTC?