Who are the 1% of traders who earn with trading?

[as.exchange]

Based on the discussion above I wonder how do you think guys:

1) Aren't there any of those 1.6% of top traders here on BitcoinTalk? Since I assumed they also would be replying and sharing their thoughts, but for now as we all see it's mostly assumptions of the rest - 98.4% of traders

For sure they are here, they could be at any rank of account but if they choose not to join the discussion. They want to remain silent and lowkey.

Good point, probably "big money loves silence"?
 

2) How do you think, could that success be partially explained by the use of those traders of derivatives? Since it's known that derivatives do create significant returns at less risk, but the problem is that the majority of people even don't understand those derivatives, structured products, etc., so among the ones who do understand, a small group can benefit from that. Do you think this could be a reason?

Probably it's because many are still not aware and lack knowledge about derivatives. And if there's someone who knows it, he won't share it unless someone asks for it.

I see your point. Probably you are correct about this also. Then we could be the ones helping "the average Joe" to get the skills which is typically possessed by the financial elites. Might be good point for ads for us next year (not self-promotion)

[1714920998]

1714920998

[1714920998]

1714920998

[1714920998]

1714920998

[1714920998]

1714920998

[posi]

There is time value of money but if the coin is a well supported coin with good concept and utility there is no need to sell @$90 or $50. The best thing to do in this knd of the situation is to leave the investment and start a new one at the $50 price if have enough capital but if capital is an issue is better to sell @$90.

True - if you add time value of money, return will be way worse. However, most of the coins are without any utility or use - simply created for scamming people or for attracting traders. That's why it's gonna be hard to watch how the balance declines when the asset decline from $90 to $50, and you can't even sell that.

Good point cause 80% of all the newly created are hype base and this is the expanse where every crypto traders need to have knowledge not only to read the chart/candle but also have the awareness of the perfect investment in the which is not hype base.
I don't trade often cause i don't like spending much time on trading but i surprised some traders usually complain they only make losses whereas in the knowledge they lack.

[Rasel5209]

There has been many research papers, and the statistics are mostly pretty sad:
•   100% of people start trading with the hope of getting rich
•   80% of all traders quit within the first two years
•   Among all traders, nearly 40% trade for only 1 month
•   Within 3 years, only 13% continue to trade
•   After 5 years, only 7% remain trading
•   The average individual investor underperforms a market index by 1.5% per year
•   Active traders underperform market by 6.5% annually
•   Only 1.6% of traders remain profitable net of fees in the long-run

Who are in your opinion these ∼1% of traders? Why they are able to remain profitable? Are you sure you are one of them, if you include taxes, fees, etc.?

I Don't understand what do you mean in 1%. Many trader brake in crypto market but many Newbie join for trading. Trading is risky way but many people make huge profits.

[as.exchange]

Good point cause 80% of all the newly created are hype base and this is the expanse where every crypto traders need to have knowledge not only to read the chart/candle but also have the awareness of the perfect investment in the which is not hype base.
I don't trade often cause i don't like spending much time on trading but i surprised some traders usually complain they only make losses whereas in the knowledge they lack.

True, and I forgot to mention such thing as "opportunity cost" like - okay you earned your 5% in active trading by spending 12 hours/day, but you could earn 3% (for example) with some safe bonds and with 0hrs. spent of your efforts. Was it really worth that?

And yes, sometimes get overconfident just because they get lucky for a specific period of time and they think it's their skill... and when the reality shows them that they know nothing about trading, they say they just got unlucky

I Don't understand what do you mean in 1%. Many trader brake in crypto market but many Newbie join for trading. Trading is risky way but many people make huge profits.

The fact that you mention that many people leave and come-in just prove some of the points listed - that most of the people are not even able to stay for a long enough time. But those 1% are the ones who do stay in the trading for many many years.

[Bitbtc8]

The remaining 1% of traders that really make hell of money from trading are rich whales who can easily manipulates the market to make their own gains, they hardly end up in losses, their huge funds or assets is their true power

[posi]

Good point cause 80% of all the newly created are hype base and this is the expanse where every crypto traders need to have knowledge not only to read the chart/candle but also have the awareness of the perfect investment in the which is not hype base.
I don't trade often cause i don't like spending much time on trading but i surprised some traders usually complain they only make losses whereas in the knowledge they lack.

True, and I forgot to mention such thing as "opportunity cost" like - okay you earned your 5% in active trading by spending 12 hours/day, but you could earn 3% (for example) with some safe bonds and with 0hrs. spent of your efforts. Was it really worth that?

Speaking of opportunity cost, i will spend more time on the safe bonds which will yield 3% in less than one hour and this is the reason why i don't spend much time on trading in the first place.
Was is it worth that?

And yes, sometimes get overconfident just because they get lucky for a specific period and they think it's their skill... and when the reality shows them that they know nothing about trading, they say they just got unlucky

I guess you are right but i just dont see it as something nice because they usually dont talk about the moment of profit making but their loss.

[ReiMomo]

The remaining 1% of traders that really make hell of money from trading are rich whales who can easily manipulates the market to make their own gains, they hardly end up in losses, their huge funds or assets is their true power

Exactly and I agree with you.

I guess they are those traders who earn a profit using their huger capital to gain continuously in the market. Manipulating the price isn't easy I guess, but if you are one of those whales that has a huge capital, maybe you can.

Another factor that possible to consider as a remaining 1% of traders is those who are experts in trading and building up their fund just to survive in trading and gain profit. But who are they? That question we did not know because as far as I know, most traders are newbies lurking and seeking money on the internet.

[MWesterweele]

The remaining 1% of traders that really make hell of money from trading are rich whales who can easily manipulates the market to make their own gains, they hardly end up in losses, their huge funds or assets is their true power

not at all, we can say that those 1% are those people who are not afraid to take step in the game , they are not afraid to take risk and willing to lose in order for them to gain in the future, even we are not whales , still we can have that opportunity and use that to grow our asset.

[boyptc]

Good point, probably "big money loves silence"?

Yes. Remaining lowkey would be the best thing while watching everyone who's also happy with them.

I see your point. Probably you are correct about this also. Then we could be the ones helping "the average Joe" to get the skills which is typically possessed by the financial elites. Might be good point for ads for us next year (not self-promotion)

Good luck with that plan. That's a good initiative if you have plans for that. I'm actually not a good educator so basically, you can start with it and sharing ideas with us about that topic.

It is for sure that when a topic like that comes out, there will be people who will be eyeing it. As the usual quote about money talks, they're there to listen.

[as.exchange]

The remaining 1% of traders that really make hell of money from trading are rich whales who can easily manipulates the market to make their own gains, they hardly end up in losses, their huge funds or assets is their true power

Nah, not always. You can check the story of LTCM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management), Lehman Brothers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehman_Brothers), and there are others as well - they were the whales of the whales. While also you can check Takashi Kotegawa (https://www.worldtopinvestors.com/takashi-kotegawa-investor-profile/). So whales are not the smartest people in the world We all have chance.

Speaking of opportunity cost, i will spend more time on the safe bonds which will yield 3% in less than one hour and this is the reason why i don't spend much time on trading in the first place.
Was is it worth that?

I guess you are right but i just dont see it as something nice because they usually dont talk about the moment of profit making but their loss.

Well there are different kinds of bonds though, there are high-yields, junk bonds (some people made fortunes trading those), and other fixed-income products (but most of them are not accessible to common retail traders actually, that's why few times I mentioned that I think those 1% might have access to something what common people cannot access?).

I'm sure there are both kinds of people - someone who will be showing off with their profit making ability and saying they are so smart, and others who will be talking about their losses and saying it's just this only time they got unfortunate. But I think there will be more people showing off their profits though.

Exactly and I agree with you.

I guess they are those traders who earn a profit using their huger capital to gain continuously in the market. Manipulating the price isn't easy I guess, but if you are one of those whales that has a huge capital, maybe you can.

Another factor that possible to consider as a remaining 1% of traders is those who are experts in trading and building up their fund just to survive in trading and gain profit. But who are they? That question we did not know because as far as I know, most traders are newbies lurking and seeking money on the internet.

You forgot to add "most traders are newbies lurking and seeking money on the internet, and end up selling trading courses or VIP signals and using that profit claim they are pro-traders and reinforce the cycle"

not at all, we can say that those 1% are those people who are not afraid to take step in the game , they are not afraid to take risk and willing to lose in order for them to gain in the future, even we are not whales , still we can have that opportunity and use that to grow our asset.

Great point! And the people like Takashi Kotegawa (there are others also) are great example of that. Start at the level same or lower than most people in this Community, and end up being an individual trading more than a lot of funds in the world.

Yes. Remaining lowkey would be the best thing while watching everyone who's also happy with them.

Yes, and not necessarily happy with them. "Big brother is watching" - so can also be a reason for them to stay lowkey given the fact how much most of us love to pay taxes from crypto

Good luck with that plan. That's a good initiative if you have plans for that. I'm actually not a good educator so basically, you can start with it and sharing ideas with us about that topic.

It is for sure that when a topic like that comes out, there will be people who will be eyeing it. As the usual quote about money talks, they're there to listen.

Thank you for that! You will be among the first ones whom we gonna invite for those courses/lessons/videos when we make them available It's at our core to help all people around the world to have the same opportunity and knowledge in the advanced financial areas as the common "financial elites", because when more people know about it - we are more equal and have same chances to benefit from it (no, we are not communists though to make everyone equal ).

[jerry0]

What percentage of ppl who do this full time make a yearly profit on this?  Thing is when crypto is down all year like few years ago, how did any of these traders make any money is what i want to know?  Because if everything keeps going up... its like well its hard to lose if you only buy/sell the top coins.

[seleme]

Trading is not easy and statistics confirm the hard truth traders afraid to accept. Everyone wants to see themselves on the winning side but the practice and trading skills are not the same for all types of traders. Long term trading is the key to be on the green side while short terms traders burn their 1000th trading account with the hope of getting a big one day. Finding the 1% profitable traders is harder than finding 99% of losers

[as.exchange]

I thought those numbers were thrown randomly then the OP cited reference of the study.
Please edit the OP along with the reference you mentioned inside the thread, because some people don't go to page 2 and just straight up reply and ask for the reference for sure.

As for the 1%, even if knowing the actual number of that in the world population, that's already a lot of people and I don't think I would count on that.
Where are they right now? Probably not here in the forum so we'll never know. Probably they're still busy looking into their charts always.

Thank you for your recommendation! No way we would just randomly throw out some random numbers Unfortunately when I tried providing direct links to the researches with URL links to the papers, my comment got deleted by the moderators, so I am not sure what's the issue with that But if you have any advise about how to edit that and not make people managing the thread delete it, I would really appreciate that and would surely edit the initial message.

And the 1% is not from the total world population actually, it's from traders who trade. If you consider number of people who actually trade - that's pretty small number (less than 0.1% of total population (I assume)). And among them very few trade persistently. And among them it's like 1.6%... so the number is in fact pretty small, but yes it's not as small as 100-1000 people in the world. But I guess you are right - those 1.6% are not here, as they are busy with doing what they do better than the rest of the world and all of us here, so all we can do is just guess, and assume.

What percentage of ppl who do this full time make a yearly profit on this?  Thing is when crypto is down all year like few years ago, how did any of these traders make any money is what i want to know?  Because if everything keeps going up... its like well its hard to lose if you only buy/sell the top coins.

I see your point, but I think even if everything keeps going up it's still pretty possible to lose a lot of money. Many many maaany people would short @ $20k, @ $21k, ..., @ $25k and now will short again. So just imagine how many of them are in losses who will be contributing to those stats. Also don't forget the ones who do earn in the growing market, but... they don't consider their fees, or some even don't know about them spreads, network fees, deposit/withdrawal fees, interest on margin accounts, interest on leveraged positions, and taxes (if there's someone here paying those on your crypto), and many other hidden things. When consider all - numbers are not that positive as people see in their terminal screen.

Trading is not easy and statistics confirm the hard truth traders afraid to accept. Everyone wants to see themselves on the winning side but the practice and trading skills are not the same for all types of traders. Long term trading is the key to be on the green side while short terms traders burn their 1000th trading account with the hope of getting a big one day. Finding the 1% profitable traders is harder than finding 99% of losers

You are absolutely correct! But just to clarify - do you mean long-term trading, like as real trading (scalping, swing, hourly, weekly, etc.) or you mean investing? Because I think once you trade covers a long-enough time-period like years, it becomes very vague if it's trading or investing. Like, maybe I invest with 1-2y horizon based on hype, news, and short-term fundamentals. At the same time, someone might be buying in January 2020, and expecting to exit h/is/er position in Jan 2022 based on ultra-long-term tech analysis. These types of people are kind of hybrid between traders (with up to 1 month trading period) and investors (who typically expect to exit position within 5-10 years).

[posi]

Speaking of opportunity cost, i will spend more time on the safe bonds which will yield 3% in less than one hour and this is the reason why i don't spend much time on trading in the first place.
Was is it worth that?

I guess you are right but i just dont see it as something nice because they usually dont talk about the moment of profit making but their loss.

Well there are different kinds of bonds though, there are high-yields, junk bonds (some people made fortunes trading those), and other fixed-income products (but most of them are not accessible to common retail traders actually, that's why few times I mentioned that I think those 1% might have access to something what common people cannot access?).

I'm used to the bonds trading investment but there are some crypto exchange site like etoro etc that provide bond investment and about 1% whales have access to something common people cannot access is widespread in almost all investment setting and for this not to be a subject in crypto is the reason why Satoshi market Bitcoin decentralized.

I'm sure there are both kinds of people - someone who will be showing off with their profit making ability and saying they are so smart, and others who will be talking about their losses and saying it's just this only time they got unfortunate. But I think there will be more people showing off their profits though.

You are right but it good to count one blessing not to be ungrateful or blaming Bitcoin for their own mistakes.

[Psynthax]

What percentage of ppl who do this full time make a yearly profit on this?  Thing is when crypto is down all year like few years ago, how did any of these traders make any money is what i want to know?  Because if everything keeps going up... its like well its hard to lose if you only buy/sell the top coins.

They usually took profit from occasional pumps and dumps, it could be easily done if you trading short term because these pumps and dumps are like waves, there's time when it goes down but it will surely make a recover if the coin is good enough. By that, despite the bearish market they could still make some money and the rest of them more specifically long-term trader always bag holding and keeps buying when the coin is at its lowest point.

[as.exchange]

I'm used to the bonds trading investment but there are some crypto exchange site like etoro etc that provide bond investment and about 1% whales have access to something common people cannot access is widespread in almost all investment setting and for this not to be a subject in crypto is the reason why Satoshi market Bitcoin decentralized.

Yes, that was the main argument I was trying to make that those 1% usually can trade something what most of us cannot. Even with etoro and others, they rarely bring something entirely new or something "from elites" to the common people. This is what we are doing now

You are right but it good to count one blessing not to be ungrateful or blaming Bitcoin for their own mistakes.

Yes, you are correct. Bitcoin, same with nuclear power, and just hammer - was created to solve something specific, but got/getting misused by hummanity.

They usually took profit from occasional pumps and dumps, it could be easily done if you trading short term because these pumps and dumps are like waves, there's time when it goes down but it will surely make a recover if the coin is good enough. By that, despite the bearish market they could still make some money and the rest of them more specifically long-term trader always bag holding and keeps buying when the coin is at its lowest point.

Yes, you made a great point. With short-term trading profits are typically more volatile, but if you invest and wait long-term and able to survive temporary price swings then can earn better ROI and take advantage of shorter term P&Ds.

[vaultman]

I know a lot of people who have made a lot of money trading cryptocurrencies, stocks, etc. Perhaps many people lose money on exchanges and are statistically counted among the entire number of traders, hence such a low percentage of successful traders. Such people simply act at random, or follow the general trend of investing in something, mindlessly following the opinion of the crowd. If there is a sufficient amount of reliable information that gives grounds to draw conclusions about the future growth of an asset, then the chance that you will lose money after investing is low, so you should not rely on statistics. You always need to think with your own head and constantly analyze the situation, the same is true with investments.

[as.exchange]

I know a lot of people who have made a lot of money trading cryptocurrencies, stocks, etc. Perhaps many people lose money on exchanges and are statistically counted among the entire number of traders, hence such a low percentage of successful traders. Such people simply act at random, or follow the general trend of investing in something, mindlessly following the opinion of the crowd. If there is a sufficient amount of reliable information that gives grounds to draw conclusions about the future growth of an asset, then the chance that you will lose money after investing is low, so you should not rely on statistics. You always need to think with your own head and constantly analyze the situation, the same is true with investments.

True, but in the current world of 21st century the amount of information bombarded at all of us from every corner is so huge, that you probably gonna waste a pretty great amount of time by filtering it out in to find out what is good and what is not. That's why most of the rich people don't even read news (at least they say so), because it will take too much time and efforts to read it all and filter for reliable sources.

[Benefactor]

These merchants exchange when it is required - when the business sectors will take an action which is huge to such an extent that it can have a colossal effect when occurred. On the off chance that you decided to be more patient and consistently control your feelings when exchanging, at that point you can be those who stay to exchange effectively after long years exchanging.

[leea-1334]

They usually took profit from occasional pumps and dumps, it could be easily done if you trading short term because these pumps and dumps are like waves, there's time when it goes down but it will surely make a recover if the coin is good enough. By that, despite the bearish market they could still make some money and the rest of them more specifically long-term trader always bag holding and keeps buying when the coin is at its lowest point.

All these traders make such a huge point to talk about all the profits they make during these crashes,,, but I bet you they hide majority of the losses they make.

I personally think the only money they make is from idiots who pay for their signal subscription. It seems the only way to make money from trading is not by trading;)