The demise of Bitcoin. Biggest threat to Bitcoin and all PoW coins

[stompix]

Magnetic fields can create electric fields. In fact, every time you change a magnetic field, you create an electric field. This is called Faraday's Law of Induction.

If I were you I would quit right now and either rush to grab a 6th grade book on Physics or change that whole topic to visit Sri Lanka and witness a rock like a thousand others in the world. Oh wait, even better, why not build a Pyramid like the one in Giza at the North Magnetic Pole and fit it with mining gear, free electricity, and free cooling!
Now, why are paying 8cents per kWh in Sri Lanka if you have this magical rock? I would have expected it to be full of drilled sockets by now.

EMF detectors usually only show up to 5 Milligauss, but this rock emits a much higher level of magnetic flux.

Whatever you do next, don't put a Geiger counter next to a banana, or you're going to bring forth the fall of the Banana Industry just as you're destroying bitcoin now with your revelations.

PoW is a failure. PoS is a better system.

Sorry for your coins not reaching ATH like bitcoin but the energy problem in Pow pales in comparison to the monopolies that can rise with PoS

Which fairytale did you just jump out of? A magical glowing rock that gives unlimited energy?

I don't think it even glows or they would have already smashed it to pieces and used it as lamps.

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[TheGreatPython]

Alright, you have a quite good write-up here lol, this is the first time I’m knowing about the rock you’re talking about. Anyway, I don’t think that anyone would be interested in making use of such energy in attacking Bitcoin, there are more important things that would be in their mind to use the energy for, that’s if they can use it, than using it to attack Bitcoin. And the government in that country where the rock is located won’t be allowing anyone access to making use of that rock or any private organization or whatsoever.

If there’s anyone that will draw energy from there for any purpose, it’s going to be the government, and Bitcoin is the least thing they will ever think of.

[jabbathe69]

Magnetic fields can create electric fields. In fact, every time you change a magnetic field, you create an electric field. This is called Faraday's Law of Induction.

If I were you I would quit right now and either rush to grab a 6th grade book on Physics or change that whole topic to visit Sri Lanka and witness a rock like a thousand others in the world. Oh wait, even better, why not build a Pyramid like the one in Giza at the North Magnetic Pole and fit it with mining gear, free electricity, and free cooling!
Now, why are paying 8cents per kWh in Sri Lanka if you have this magical rock? I would have expected it to be full of drilled sockets by now.

EMF detectors usually only show up to 5 Milligauss, but this rock emits a much higher level of magnetic flux.

Whatever you do next, don't put a Geiger counter next to a banana, or you're going to bring forth the fall of the Banana Industry just as you're destroying bitcoin now with your revelations.

PoW is a failure. PoS is a better system.

Sorry for your coins not reaching ATH like bitcoin but the energy problem in Pow pales in comparison to the monopolies that can rise with PoS

Which fairytale did you just jump out of? A magical glowing rock that gives unlimited energy?

I don't think it even glows or they would have already smashed it to pieces and used it as lamps.

I don’t want to argue with you. I only want to discuss ideas, so that everyone can learn from our conversation. That is why it is called “Bitcoin Discussion”.

It may sound like a fairly tale for you and all the readers. But, all the brilliant ideas were once ridiculed. Few years back, if I told you, I can send sound through a wire or through the air, you would have laughed at me. But today, it is a reality.

If you only learn what is taught to you on a 6th grade physics book, you will never think outside the box. If a rock emits free, unlimited energy, harnessing that energy to mine bitcoin is a very practical idea. My idea could be complete b.s. After all, it is just a rock that has a carving on it that looks similar to modern day induction coils. If a rock emits energy, the first thing people think about doing is worshiping that rock. That is a fool’s mentality. No one thinks about harnessing energy from a rock to mine bitcoin.

If there is only one known flaw in the bitcoin code, that will be THE flaw that will be exploited one day. It will always be prone to exploitation. Bitcoin’s final block is estimated to be mined in around 2140. Do you really think someone is not going to come up with a brilliant invention that can harness unlimited energy for very low cost? Even if someone finds a way to harness unlimited energy in the year 3000, it is still a problem for bitcoin. Remember, longest chain always wins.

Pyramids, this rock, and all the man built ancient structures are very advance structures that look so primitive. If I want to build something highly advance, I want it to be simple as possible.

Your idea of “build a Pyramid like the one in Giza at the North Magnetic Pole and fit it with mining gear, free electricity, and free cooling!”, could actually be a brilliant idea. You may say this as a joke, but if you consider the feasibility, the cost, it may actually work.

Nikola Tesla tried to do something similar. He almost gave free electricity to everyone. https://youtu.be/I1IDC8FEIBU

You’ve spent time writing a comment that ridiculed my idea. This only proves one thing to me. It proves that there’s a fragment in your mind that believes what I say makes sense. You know 51% attack will always be a threat and your natural reaction was to ridicule.

As Nikola Tesla once said
“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”

[amishmanish]

I think it is safe to assume that you are some kid who has just come across a bunch of spoofy bullshit on youtube and has also found interest in crypto. Internet can be crazy that way now that you don't have to go to a library or a laboratory to test what people are telling you. All you need is a video, some more videos about Tesla and other geniuses. Bet you love the Ted Talks, right?

First things first, Welcome to the forum.

Second thing; when Sci-Fi talks about an unlimited source of energy to power a super advanced civilization, it only means that the civilization has found a way to harness nearly unlimited energy. Say, from cold fusion, a Dyson sphere or in your case, unlimited energy with a throughput of multiple Gigawatts derived from a stone. (I'll not go into the details of how much continuous throughput you will actually need for a power source to match Bitcoin's hashing power). The point is that even an "unlimited source" of energy is not free. So your hypothetical 51% attacker will still have to buy all those resources.

You see, no blockchain is infallible. Its only the "cost" of an attack that determines its security. Why do you think all of those 1000 chains did not see people putting in billions of dollars? Because people with wealth are not stupid. The steps to attack a PoW chain will include raising capital, buying insane amount of miners, connecting to the network without anyone noticing (a 50% surge), paying for all that energy and then finding a time to attack.

And then, Attack what?? Crack open the 1 Million Satoshi vault?? Not possible. All you can do is a re-org and a double spend. You need to find yourself a "buyer" stupid enough to buy billions of worth of BTC and not look into the state of chain at that time.

For PoS, all you need is to buy enough of the crypto so that you are the biggest staker. That is ALL you need to attack a PoS chain. Happens all the time with smaller chains.

Now stop watching silly Youtube videos or you will end up thinking that Earth is flat. We have those loonies in our forum too. Even they don't believe that PoS is better than PoW for the foundational money of crypto.

[jabbathe69]

I think it is safe to assume that you are some kid who has just come across a bunch of spoofy bullshit on youtube and has also found interest in crypto. Internet can be crazy that way now that you don't have to go to a library or a laboratory to test what people are telling you. All you need is a video, some more videos about Tesla and other geniuses. Bet you love the Ted Talks, right?

First things first, Welcome to the forum.

Second thing; when Sci-Fi talks about an unlimited source of energy to power a super advanced civilization, it only means that the civilization has found a way to harness nearly unlimited energy. Say, from cold fusion, a Dyson sphere or in your case, unlimited energy with a throughput of multiple Gigawatts derived from a stone. (I'll not go into the details of how much continuous throughput you will actually need for a power source to match Bitcoin's hashing power). The point is that even an "unlimited source" of energy is not free. So your hypothetical 51% attacker will still have to buy all those resources.

You see, no blockchain is infallible. Its only the "cost" of an attack that determines its security. Why do you think all of those 1000 chains did not see people putting in billions of dollars? Because people with wealth are not stupid. The steps to attack a PoW chain will include raising capital, buying insane amount of miners, connecting to the network without anyone noticing (a 50% surge), paying for all that energy and then finding a time to attack.

And then, Attack what?? Crack open the 1 Million Satoshi vault?? Not possible. All you can do is a re-org and a double spend. You need to find yourself a "buyer" stupid enough to buy billions of worth of BTC and not look into the state of chain at that time.

For PoS, all you need is to buy enough of the crypto so that you are the biggest staker. That is ALL you need to attack a PoS chain. Happens all the time with smaller chains.

Now stop watching silly Youtube videos or you will end up thinking that Earth is flat. We have those loonies in our forum too. Even they don't believe that PoS is better than PoW for the foundational money of crypto.

I think it is safe to assume that you are a 40 year old, Indian dude, worried about losing the value of bitcoin by some kid you haven’t even met. You have the mentality of a typical sheep. I assume that in a country where there are billions of people, there isn’t much choice right? If you want bitcoin to be successful, you must look at all possible ways it could fail. Do you really think, 100 or 200 years from now, no one is going to find a way to harness unlimited energy with very little cost? I guess you don’t have to worry because you are not going to live that long right?

If you have unlimited free energy, you don’t have to have 1 million ASICs to launch a 51% attack. You would only need one giant ASIC. Yes. It will be expensive. But, the return on investment is much higher. Energy taken from a rock is not like other sources of energy. For example, to harness energy from the sun, you would need many solar panels. And the funniest thing is when someone launches the attack, you can’t do anything about it. You can only watch.

You are correct. PoS has a high risk of some party achieving monopoly of the currency. However, there are several methods to prevent that. For example, by allocating random stakeholders to agree on a new block, and others.

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum.

[stompix]

I don’t want to argue with you. I only want to discuss ideas, so that everyone can learn from our conversation. That is why it is called “Bitcoin Discussion”.

Contradiction much?

It may sound like a fairly tale for you and all the readers. But, all the brilliant ideas were once ridiculed. Few years back, if I told you, I can send sound through a wire or through the air, you would have laughed at me. But today, it is a reality.

A few years? I doubt it, probably a few centuries ago!
Again your comparison is badly chosen.
In your case it's not about not knowing a few hundred years ago that you can send a pulse through a wire, it's about now knowing that there is a huge difference between copper and rubber.  You're not telling us about energy, you're discussing something that you've measured yourself end expressed in a unit. At this point, you're bound by the same law of physics to respect this when you try to get something out of this. Not measuring the density of gold and claim a car running on gold will be faster than a boat powered by red pandas.
 

If you only learn what is taught to you on a 6th grade physics book, you will never think outside the box. If a rock emits free, unlimited energy, harnessing that energy to mine bitcoin is a very practical idea. My idea could be complete b.s.

Now finally you've got something right.

No one thinks about harnessing energy from a rock to mine bitcoin.

Just as nobody thinks of harnessing energy from magnets..of wait..

If there is only one known flaw in the bitcoin code, that will be THE flaw that will be exploited one day. It will always be prone to exploitation. Bitcoin’s final block is estimated to be mined in around 2140. Do you really think someone is not going to come up with a brilliant invention that can harness unlimited energy for very low cost? Even if someone finds a way to harness unlimited energy in the year 3000, it is still a problem for bitcoin. Remember, longest chain always wins.

It's a matter of cost.
To attack the network with a 50% attack right now for 24 hours you need 84Gwh of energy that's 1.6 million $ at 2cents per kWh, or lower than what Bruce nuclear powerplant is currently producing.
But in order to do so, you need to get your hands on gear worth 300 million.

You’ve spent time writing a comment that ridiculed my idea. This only proves one thing to me. It proves that there’s a fragment in your mind that believes what I say makes sense.

You've switched from Tesla to Buddha? No, it proves one thing,  that stupid ideas need to be put in their place without mercy.

If you have unlimited free energy, you don’t have to have 1 million ASICs to launch a 51% attack. You would only need one giant ASIC.

You don't know what an ASIC is, do you?

[Betwrong]

~
If you have unlimited free energy, you don’t have to have 1 million ASICs to launch a 51% attack. You would only need one giant ASIC. Yes. It will be expensive. But, the return on investment is much higher. ~

Apart from taking into consideration what stompix said about "one giant ASIC", I think you should still watch that 2 minutes video, Andreas Antonopoulos - 51% Bitcoin Attack , I was talking about earlier in this thread.

There will be no return! The attackers will just lose huge money, that's all.

[jabbathe69]

~
If you have unlimited free energy, you don’t have to have 1 million ASICs to launch a 51% attack. You would only need one giant ASIC. Yes. It will be expensive. But, the return on investment is much higher. ~

Apart from taking into consideration what stompix said about "one giant ASIC", I think you should still watch that 2 minutes video, Andreas Antonopoulos - 51% Bitcoin Attack , I was talking about earlier in this thread.

There will be no return! The attackers will just lose huge money, that's all.

Watched it. I have a counter argument. He said “ we kick those bastards off the network, rework the protocol around them”

Then the attacker will simply join the forked blockchain again and continue to double spend again. The amount of power needed will also be a lot less this time. How are you going to rework the protocol around them? You can’t.

[mikeywith]

Watched it. I have a counter argument. He said “ we kick those bastards off the network, rework the protocol around them”

Then the attacker will simply join the forked blockchain again and continue to double spend again. The amount of power needed will also be a lot less this time. How are you going to rework the protocol around them? You can’t.

What is the incentive for a 51% attack? I don't want to go into techincal details because you don't seem to be well aware of the basics, at least judging by this part you mentioned.

If you have unlimited free energy, you don’t have to have 1 million ASICs to launch a 51% attack. You would only need one giant ASIC.

But I'll tell you how wrong you are economically

It will be expensive. But, the return on investment is much higher. ~

The return on investment won't be great - it's the opposite, it will be the best way to burn your money, 51% on BTC is technically a possibility there is no doubt about it, but you will need at least a (rough estimate )1 billion $ to attempt an attack of such kind, so if you don't double-spend that same amount of money then you gain nothing, I am not sure how would someone spend 1 billion in a short period of time, you deposit 10% of that amount in any exchange and it will be stuck there for a very long time until they are done with all the KYC stuff, let alone liquidity issues.

The next thing you need to solve is doing this silently without brining any attention, because the moment you do, everyone will start asking for a dozen confirmation, and by the end of the day you will end up with worthless mining gears because an attack on bitcoin will bring it's value down.

The attack is doable but surely not for the purpose of profit, you will do it just to hurt bitcoin.

[jabbathe69]

Watched it. I have a counter argument. He said “ we kick those bastards off the network, rework the protocol around them”

Then the attacker will simply join the forked blockchain again and continue to double spend again. The amount of power needed will also be a lot less this time. How are you going to rework the protocol around them? You can’t.

What is the incentive for a 51% attack? I don't want to go into techincal details because you don't seem to be well aware of the basics, at least judging by this part you mentioned.

If you have unlimited free energy, you don’t have to have 1 million ASICs to launch a 51% attack. You would only need one giant ASIC.

But I'll tell you how wrong you are economically

It will be expensive. But, the return on investment is much higher. ~

The return on investment won't be great - it's the opposite, it will be the best way to burn your money, 51% on BTC is technically a possibility there is no doubt about it, but you will need at least a (rough estimate )1 billion $ to attempt an attack of such kind, so if you don't double-spend that same amount of money then you gain nothing, I am not sure how would someone spend 1 billion in a short period of time, you deposit 10% of that amount in any exchange and it will be stuck there for a very long time until they are done with all the KYC stuff, let alone liquidity issues.

The next thing you need to solve is doing this silently without brining any attention, because the moment you do, everyone will start asking for a dozen confirmation, and by the end of the day you will end up with worthless mining gears because an attack on bitcoin will bring it's value down.

The attack is doable but surely not for the purpose of profit, you will do it just to hurt bitcoin.

Alright. I’m going to stop commenting on this thread. I keep saying how it is profitable to launch a 51% attack and everyone else is saying how it is not. I can explain how wrong you are but I’m not going to do that. If I do that, someone else will try to explain how wrong I am again. I see no point in having this discussion.

But let me clear your doubt about ASICs before I stop commenting. ASIC is a microchip designed for a special application. These chips/chip can be as small or as large as necessary. The size doesn’t matter especially when you have unlimited electricity for free.

[marlo1001]

Free energy is not enough for 51% attack. You also need a lot of ASICs of it. Its just impossible to buy so big amount of them right now

[mikeywith]

Alright. I’m going to stop commenting on this thread. I keep saying how it is profitable to launch a 51% attack and everyone else is saying how it is not. I can explain how wrong you are but I’m not going to do that. If I do that, someone else will try to explain how wrong I am again. I see no point in having this discussion.

Where is your argument? I can't see it, you did not show us how a 51% attack is easy and profitable, everyone including those who hate bitcoin or think it's a scam agree that a 51% isn't easy and isn't guaranteed to be profitble, so what you claiming is very serious, and it requirest rock (no pun intended) solid proof, you only have a magic rock of some kind that is located in Sri Lanka which so happened to have had a dozen of blackouts 4 months ago that lasted for 7 hours according to WikiPedia, so if the government of Sri Lanka can't use that magic rock, who can? I suppose at least people who live nearby could plug-in their USB chargers when there is a blackout, but I googled that and I couldn't find anything related.

But you know what, for the sake of simplicity, let's assume that you managed to pull unlimited power out of that rock, what is next? how are you going to convert electricity into hash power and at what cost?

[CarnagexD]

If this is true regardless of traditions and culture, superpower countries like America and China will flock upon it and would try to get their hands on the rock. Also, this rock of yours is breaking the law of thermodynamics, so I'm not sure if I should believe in you. Energy being emitted from an unlikely source let alone unlimited energy is just too bizarre, absurd even, to make myself believe in it.

There is no threat to Bitcoin, everything is fine. This will not happen in the coming years.

Also, I'm not getting why this should be a threat to bitcoin in the first place. In fact, I believe a renewable yet efficient energy source would spearhead bitcoin's success in the market because it primarily uses electricity to stay alive.

[pixie85]

If someone discovers a free energy source, then miners will flock to  use it, and that will make a 51% attack impossible.

There are lots of "free" energy sources such as solar, wind and tide, and yet Bitcoin is still secure and strong.

While your first sentence is true the second one is not.

Wind solar and so on are not free energy sources and it's the same with that mountain, even if it really emits energy. You need to spend a lot of money to harness that "free" energy and it makes it no longer free.

If you could build a solar or wind generator that would work by itself for decades it would be great but even that can't be done. You always have to pay for land on which you'll build it, materials to make it, spare parts to keep it going...

[GrassBite]

Do all the newbies smoke weed before posting?

If someone discovers a free, unlimited energy source, launching a 51% attack would be just a matter of seconds. And that is exactly what has happened.

There is a sacred rock located in Ranmasu Uyana, Sri Lanka. You can check here:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranmasu_Uyana

This rock is said to have the oldest carving in the world. Older than the pyramids. What is interesting about this rock is that it emits energy. Precisely, unlimited, free energy. This place is referred to as a Stargate.

You can use an EMF detector and check the electromotive force emitted by this rock. An EMF detector is used to measure the electrical action produced by a non-electrical source.

EMF detector will show even very small changes in energies. And if you take an EMF detector and measure the electromotive force produced by this rock, you can see that the EMF meter's needle immediately goes all the way to the other side, which means, there is very high energy emitted from this rock. Potentially unlimited and free energy. You can check the video here: https://youtu.be/B-W-nQOQdq8

This rock is guarded by a fence to protect people from the energy it emits. EMF detectors usually only show up to 5 Milligauss, but this rock emits a much higher level of magnetic flux. Potentially unlimited. A Stargate in simplest terms is a gate to the stars. And there is an infinite number of stars in the ever expanding universe. This rock (star gate) emits energy. Precisely, unlimited, free energy.

With the right resources, anyone can easily utilize this unlimited energy to launch a 51% attack on the Bitcoin network. The cost of launching such attack would be incredibly low. The energy emitted from this rock can be easily converted to electrical energy with the right resources.

Discovering an unlimited energy source is a breakthrough. A breakthrough like that would have a lot of ramifications; not only to Bitcoin network but also to every human being on planet earth. But, my focus is only on Bitcoin.

If anyone properly utilizes unlimited, free energy, he/she can easily launch a 51% attack on all PoW coins with very little cost.

This sacred rock is just one way of tapping into unlimited energy. There are so many other inventions and discoveries that can generate unlimited energy for very little cost and resources. All these discoveries are hidden from the public by the powers that be. And this is the biggest threat to Bitcoin and other PoW coins.

The Solution

PoW is a failure. PoS is a better system. With Ethereum 2.0, Ethereum is slowing moving to PoS. The threat of someone having massive amount of electrical power is eliminated in a PoS system. As soon as the news breaks out, Bitcoin price will plummet. PoS and Ethereum 2.0 is the future.

[stompix]

Alright. I’m going to stop commenting on this thread.

When you say you're going to stop, well, you stop!

I can explain how wrong you are but I’m not going to do that.

Try your best!

ASIC is a microchip designed for a special application. These chips/chip can be as small or as large as necessary. The size doesn’t matter especially when you have unlimited electricity for free.

The fragment you've copied from Wikipedia is the only accurate thing in your whole story.
Now, imagine that for your attack you will need 1 million of them, get a chip, multiply its size by 1000 in both width and length and tell me who is going to create that thing and who has the capabilities of doing so. Once you figure it out we could go to the next step, cooling this mofo of a monstrosity and then go figuring how the hell are you going to power a single circuit with the required power, and just a head's up for comparison (this will not be all accurate but whatever), you will need to pump in the energy the top 3 aluminum smelters in the world require.

But you know what, for the sake of simplicity, let's assume that you managed to pull unlimited power out of that rock, what is next?

Run for cover as fast as you can?    Imagine the discharge when you pull the energy out of it (of course in theory), a few spectacular flashes, and then one hell of an explosion when that rocks becomes the second sun of Sri Lanka for a few seconds.

[NotATether]

If there is only one known flaw in the bitcoin code, that will be THE flaw that will be exploited one day. It will always be prone to exploitation. Bitcoin’s final block is estimated to be mined in around 2140. Do you really think someone is not going to come up with a brilliant invention that can harness unlimited energy for very low cost? Even if someone finds a way to harness unlimited energy in the year 3000, it is still a problem for bitcoin. Remember, longest chain always wins.

That bold part isn't correct that's around the year the last mining reward drops into a block before mining rewards cease. Blocks themselves will continue to get generated well after 2140 but miners will only be taking in transaction fees from them.

The chain still grows and you have quite an uphill battle to mine 600K blocks made between 2009 and now followed by the ~600K * 12 blocks that will be mined between now and 2140, with just an energy source in Sri Lanka especially when there's a lot of governmental bureaucracy and politics and red tape preventing people from mass-utilizing any energy source that's not middle eastern oil.

[tsaroz]

All of these are hypothesis. We can't ignore any dire circumstances but we can't move forward if we keep on focusing on them.
It's more likely for the world to end than for a single person or company to find a cheap unlimited energy and exploit it to do a 51% attack on bitcoin. If anyone do find that, they'd rather sell it than to dedicate their research on destroying bitcoin. Which would also require a lot of capital in buying the mining devices and a such attack would tarnish their image globally.

[Betwrong]

All of these are hypothesis. We can't ignore any dire circumstances but we can't move forward if we keep on focusing on them.
It's more likely for the world to end than for a single person or company to find a cheap unlimited energy and exploit it to do a 51% attack on bitcoin. If anyone do find that, they'd rather sell it than to dedicate their research on destroying bitcoin.~

Or, alternatively, they could buy mining gear and start mining Bitcoin. Thus they could kill two birds with one stone: they could be contributing to the security of Bitcoin blockchain and making a lot of money with mining.

[jabbathe69]

Update
I don’t want to spread any FUD. But, it seems like a double spend has already occurred. https://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-double-spend-flaw-critical-report-suggests-2021-1

I don’t know the validity of this article, but the threat is imminent. And I personally believe team Satoshi is active in this forum. Now, I don’t want to start any arguments. I have laid the foundation for that. Won’t be commenting in a while.