Do I need to upgrade my hardware wallet?

[heyuniverse]

Hello BitcoinTalk,

I have been in the Bitcoin space since early 2017 but have just recently dove back in. I wanted to up my security so I ended up researching for a suitable hardware wallet and found a plethora of choice.

Some are promoted heavily on YouTube. (Ledger, Trezor)
Some are promoted on forums. (Bitbox02, KeepKey, Coldcard)

I've seen some videos analyzing the differences between the wallets and the levels of security they provide. One interesting feature is Coldcard's ability to sign transactions without being plugged into a computer.

Has there ever been a case where a user's bitcoin had been stolen by way of simply connecting the hardware wallet to the computer?

I ask because I own both Ledger and Trezor products and I am wondering if I should upgrade for security purposes. Are Ledger and Trezor products inferior because they require to be plugged into the USB? When does security become paranoia?

Thanks,
HelloUniverse

[Chikito]

so far only phishing website where you must put your mnemonic seed into the website. I never find Bitcoin stolen from a ledger or trezor by USB plugged.

You must know your private key never leaves from the hardware wallet. If the application must you write your seed or private key, for sure it's phishing, in this case, you must unplug the USB and cleaning up your PC.

[mk4]

No reported cases as far as I know. In the first place, funds(or keys, to be technically specific) on hardware wallets are mostly being stolen via social engineering attacks and not really through technical vulnerabilities.

My advice: Ledger/Trezor for great security and great user experience. Coldcard for best security with decent user experience.

[GreatArkansas]

Has there ever been a case where a user's bitcoin had been stolen by way of simply connecting the hardware wallet to the computer?
(....)

Phishing websites or software / malwares installed on computer. There are few issue before on Ledger regarding of email on the user of ledger hardware wallet where the email consist of phishing site and asking user for the hardware wallet's seeds.
Storing hardware wallet's seeds online may not be safe and good move.
What I love using hardware wallet is there is no way to get your funds as long as nobody knows your seeds or keys.

[Maus0728]

I haven't tried using Trezor wallet but I have been using my Ledger Nano S for quite a few months now and have never encountered such security flaws when it comes to connecting your Ledger device to my personal computer. As far as I know, the private keys that has been generated by your HW is protected by a specialized secure chip called a "Secure Element" in order for your private keys to never leave the device and to protect it regardless if you accidentally connect it to a compromised computer..

[1] https://www.ledger.com/academy/security/the-secure-element-whistanding-security-attacks/

I also don't see any articles or news yet regarding this kind of issue.

[ranochigo]

I've seen some videos analyzing the differences between the wallets and the levels of security they provide. One interesting feature is Coldcard's ability to sign transactions without being plugged into a computer.

Has there ever been a case where a user's bitcoin had been stolen by way of simply connecting the hardware wallet to the computer?

No. Hardware wallets are designed specifically to deter these kinds of attack. The USB interface should not leak any private keys and all the signing of the transactions should be done within the hardware wallet itself. ColdCard's ability to sign transactions with only the SD card can be a bit of a hassle for some as compared to the better UI offered by both Ledger and Trezor.

I ask because I own both Ledger and Trezor products and I am wondering if I should upgrade for security purposes. Are Ledger and Trezor products inferior because they require to be plugged into the USB? When does security become paranoia?

That's not a point to consider. If they can leak private keys with the USB interface, I can guarantee no one would use their devices any more. You should be considering the vulnerabilities reported on both Ledger and Trezor. For example, Trezor is vulnerable to seed extraction attack[1] for which AFAIK Trezor offered a workaround but never a fix. Ledger also has it's fair share of vulnerabilities [2]. For both companies, you'll be happy to hear that there isn't any known vulnerabilities which doesn't requires physical access as of now.


[1] https://donjon.ledger.com/Unfixable-Key-Extraction-Attack-on-Trezor/
[2] https://donjon.ledger.com/lsb/014/

[heyuniverse]

No reported cases as far as I know. In the first place, funds(or keys, to be technically specific) on hardware wallets are mostly being stolen via social engineering attacks and not really through technical vulnerabilities.

My advice: Ledger/Trezor for great security and great user experience. Coldcard for best security with decent user experience.

It's good to hear that the technology backing the wallets are solid. I don't expect my wallet to be social engineering proof

That's what I'm planning to do. Once I have a larger stack, I'll get around to investing into a Coldcard and keep most of my funds there.

I haven't tried using Trezor wallet but I have been using my Ledger Nano S for quite a few months now and have never encountered such security flaws when it comes to connecting your Ledger device to my personal computer. As far as I know, the private keys that has been generated by your HW is protected by a specialized secure chip called a "Secure Element" in order for your private keys to never leave the device and to protect it regardless if you accidentally connect it to a compromised computer..

[1] https://www.ledger.com/academy/security/the-secure-element-whistanding-security-attacks/

I also don't see any articles or news yet regarding this kind of issue.

Thank you for the link. That's excellent.

I've seen some videos analyzing the differences between the wallets and the levels of security they provide. One interesting feature is Coldcard's ability to sign transactions without being plugged into a computer.

Has there ever been a case where a user's bitcoin had been stolen by way of simply connecting the hardware wallet to the computer?

No. Hardware wallets are designed specifically to deter these kinds of attack. The USB interface should not leak any private keys and all the signing of the transactions should be done within the hardware wallet itself. ColdCard's ability to sign transactions with only the SD card can be a bit of a hassle for some as compared to the better UI offered by both Ledger and Trezor.

I ask because I own both Ledger and Trezor products and I am wondering if I should upgrade for security purposes. Are Ledger and Trezor products inferior because they require to be plugged into the USB? When does security become paranoia?

That's not a point to consider. If they can leak private keys with the USB interface, I can guarantee no one would use their devices any more. You should be considering the vulnerabilities reported on both Ledger and Trezor. For example, Trezor is vulnerable to seed extraction attack[1] for which AFAIK Trezor offered a workaround but never a fix. Ledger also has it's fair share of vulnerabilities [2]. For both companies, you'll be happy to hear that there isn't any known vulnerabilities which doesn't requires physical access as of now.


[1] https://donjon.ledger.com/Unfixable-Key-Extraction-Attack-on-Trezor/
[2] https://donjon.ledger.com/lsb/014/

Great response. I guess I was paranoid seeing how other newer wallets (COBO) are going for the non plugged in approach. The only thing I have seen about Ledger has been that their customer email list has been leaked. This is worrisome but has no affect on my coins.

It's great that the majority of hardware wallets aren't just shilled trash but functional devices that gives you the power of banking.

[Gunday_07]

Hardware wallets can't be hacked and there is no cases of such so far, the only way one can lose coins on hardware wallet is misplacing the private key themselves or through offline carelessness, keep your keys privately to yourself and you got nothing to worry about

[Upgrade00]

Hardware wallets can't be hacked and there is no cases of such so far,

Well there was a recent case of ledger's database getting hacked. This lead to the loss of user information of about a million customers, and while an actual breach in the wallet security would be more difficult it goes to show that no system is immune to hacks.

the only way one can lose coins on hardware wallet is misplacing the private key themselves or through offline carelessness, keep your keys privately to yourself and you got nothing to worry about

There's also the risk of one purchasing from a 3rd party service like amazon and not wiping the wallet before setting it up.

While HW wallets are definitely far safer than mobile ones, this shouldn't make its users complacent on their security, as scam tactics are constantly evolving.

[akirasendo17]

Hello BitcoinTalk,

I have been in the Bitcoin space since early 2017 but have just recently dove back in. I wanted to up my security so I ended up researching for a suitable hardware wallet and found a plethora of choice.

Some are promoted heavily on YouTube. (Ledger, Trezor)
Some are promoted on forums. (Bitbox02, KeepKey, Coldcard)

I've seen some videos analyzing the differences between the wallets and the levels of security they provide. One interesting feature is Coldcard's ability to sign transactions without being plugged into a computer.

Has there ever been a case where a user's bitcoin had been stolen by way of simply connecting the hardware wallet to the computer?

I ask because I own both Ledger and Trezor products and I am wondering if I should upgrade for security purposes. Are Ledger and Trezor products inferior because they require to be plugged into the USB? When does security become paranoia?

Thanks,
HelloUniverse

update or updating only depends if its really necessary, for example, there is a bug on a firmware that is needed to be fix or update that is critical, but like others say don't update if it's just minor or not that important, as long as you have the private key it's not possible I think.

[Charles-Tim]

I ask because I own both Ledger and Trezor products and I am wondering if I should upgrade for security purposes. Are Ledger and Trezor products inferior because they require to be plugged into the USB? When does security become paranoia?

It will be good to check this below:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/newly-discovered-vulnerability-in-all-ledger-hardware-wallets-puts-user-funds-at-risk
Hardware cryptocurrency wallet manufacturer Ledger has discovered a vulnerability that affects all of its devices and can lead to users losing their funds, according to a report released on Saturday, Feb. 3, 2018. According to the report, a “man in the middle” attack can be performed when the user attempts to generate an address to receive bitcoins to their Ledger wallet. If the computer that is used in this process is infected by malware, the attacker can secretly replace the code responsible for generating the address, causing “all future deposits to be sent to the attacker.”

There have been some vulnerabilities that were reported about trezor too at one point in past times. But, many hardware wallet scam victims were scammed during phishing attempts.

So far you do not have any issue before with your trezor and ledger nano, you do not need to bother yourself. Just make sure to be careful of malware.

[Lucius]

Has there ever been a case where a user's bitcoin had been stolen by way of simply connecting the hardware wallet to the computer?

A hardware wallet is good as much as the user who uses it is versed in what it does especially in terms of receiving/sending transaction. If, for example, you plug a hardware wallet to your computer, start its user interface and decide to send a certain amount of BTC to an address without checking it on the UI and HW device screen, and you have clipboard malware on your computer - some stranger will be very pleasantly surprised with your donation.

Everything else comes down to phishing and human ignorance when it comes to some kind of remote hacking.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Once I have a larger stack, I'll get around to investing into a Coldcard and keep most of my funds there.

If having a hardware wallet which is completely isolated from the internet is your goal, then this is achievable with either a Ledger or a Trezor device if you also have an old computer lying around that you no longer use. You can strip the relevant hardware from that old computer (WiFi card, ethernet port, etc.) so that it will remain permanently offline. You can then use a wallet such as Electrum to create a cold wallet on that permanent airgapped computer which is linked to your hardware wallet, and export the master public key to create a complementary "watch only" wallet on a computer with an internet connection. You would create an unsigned transaction on the watch only wallet, transfer it via USB drive/SD card/QR code to the airgapped computer, plug in your hardware wallet to sign it, transfer the now signed transaction back to the watch only wallet, and broadcast it.

It is a bit more time consuming to set up and use, but it saves you from having to buy another hardware wallet. Having said all that, I'm not sure it adds very much to your set up - as above, there have been no documented cases of successful remote attacks on either Ledger or Trezor devices, outside of user error.