Just curious as to whether anyone here has actually used a Ballet wallet

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I read this thread and a couple of others in which the Ballet wallet was discussed, and I get that it isn't a safe wallet to keep funds in for the long term.  However, I just purchased a few of them on Amazon, one of which I'm going to use to give bitcoin as a gift to a family member.  He knows basically what bitcoin is, but aside from what he's probably heard on the news I don't think he knows all that much about it.

So I'm curious as to whether any members here have actually funded a Ballet wallet (for whatever purpose), and what their experience was with it.  Most of what I've read is how unsafe they are due to the manufacturing process which does not guarantee that they don't retain access to your private keys.  I fully understand that glaring negative against the wallet, but it's an attractive enough "device" that I figured it'd be a good gift.

I've never heard of anyone who's gotten scammed with Ballet wallets, but I haven't heard many members describing their experiences with it (and I suspect that's because it isn't popular).  I'm curious to hear about anything along those lines.

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[OROBTC]

...

I have not used a Ballet card, but have used OpenDime devices.  I like the OpenDimes!

But you do need a wallet that can sweep the funds from a paper wallet / OpenDime / Ballet (I am fairly sure for Ballet).  Blockchain.com's wallet (at least the older version I have used for years) allows importing/sweeping.  I did it just the other day just to make sure I could do it without a hitch.

I read here somewhere that Electrum wallets also allow you to sweep in the funds as well, but have not used Electrum.  There may be others too that would allow you to get your BTC off the Ballet.

Note that giving one as a gift to a newbie would require you to tell him how to get the BTC into a real wallet.

Also, I believe the Ballet and OpenDime devices both require a bit of trust that no one at the manufacturing plant would monkey with the devices allowing someone to steal deposited funds.  OpenDime does have a service which you can cryptographically check to see if there is tampering, but I have not used it (for shame!).

[HCP]

In my opinion, they're effectively as secure as any "gift card" (ie. where the "secrets" were generated by someone else and you have no way to know if that data has been retained or secured correctly)... I'd recommend treating them as such and using them for similar values and/or similar purposes.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Note that giving one as a gift to a newbie would require you to tell him how to get the BTC into a real wallet.

Well, the person I'm giving it to isn't into bitcoin but he is certainly smart enough to figure it out if he wanted to (which he might not).  All the info needed is on Ballet's website, so there's no need for me to explain anything to him--which is fortunate, because I'm not actually going to see him in person this holiday season.  Lol.

Also, I believe the Ballet and OpenDime devices both require a bit of trust that no one at the manufacturing plant would monkey with the devices allowing someone to steal deposited funds. 

Yes, that's the big issue here and I'm well aware of it.  That's why I started this thread, in fact.  I wanted to know if anyone had ever run into any problems as far as security went.  Frankly I don't think many members here have used the Ballet wallet before, and I can't say I blame them.  That damn trust issue you mentioned would keep any serious bitcoiner far away from a wallet like this one.

[OROBTC]

Note that giving one as a gift to a newbie would require you to tell him how to get the BTC into a real wallet.

Well, the person I'm giving it to isn't into bitcoin but he is certainly smart enough to figure it out if he wanted to (which he might not).  All the info needed is on Ballet's website, so there's no need for me to explain anything to him--which is fortunate, because I'm not actually going to see him in person this holiday season.  Lol.

Also, I believe the Ballet and OpenDime devices both require a bit of trust that no one at the manufacturing plant would monkey with the devices allowing someone to steal deposited funds. 

Yes, that's the big issue here and I'm well aware of it.  That's why I started this thread, in fact.  I wanted to know if anyone had ever run into any problems as far as security went.  Frankly I don't think many members here have used the Ballet wallet before, and I can't say I blame them.  That damn trust issue you mentioned would keep any serious bitcoiner far away from a wallet like this one.

Earlier this evening a long-time BTC investor at ZeroHedge wrote of giving OpenDime devices to his young relatives along with a note how to retrieve the BTC.  Because of OpenDime's being easy to pass along (by hand) WITHOUT an on-chain record, I thought this was a fantastic idea.  The devices are cheap and apparently at least somewhat durable as well as small.. Once passed around a time or two, you have nice quiet chain/set of off-chain transactions...

I will continue to be thinking of interesting ways to pass along value (BTC) in quiet ways.

I presume Ballet cards would be similar in function to all of OpenDime.

The only downside is risk of loss or theft of the card or device.  Hide it well!

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Well, I gifted the Ballet wallet to the family member I mentioned, and he was very happy to get it.  Of course since he'd never owned any crypto before he had no idea how it worked, so I gave a very general explanation and pointed him to the Ballet website--and I suggested that he transfer the bitcoin I'd loaded onto it into a software wallet like Electrum. 

As a side note, he asked me a few questions about bitcoin in general, one of which was "What determines the price of bitcoin?".  And I told him that it's mainly demand, since the supply is fixed (sort of; not every BTC has been mined yet of course).  Then he asked me what drives demand, and I kind of chuckled at that and said that that was a point of discussion on bitcointalk for years now and that nobody has yet explained it properly with evidence, etc.  I did mention that companies were buying it up as an alternative to cash and explained its decentralized nature and gave an analogy to gold.

So let's hope Ballet doesn't have a master list of private keys stored wherever they're located.  It's a damn nice-looking wallet, and it's easy to store.  That security issue just makes my skin crawl, though.

[DireWolfM14]

Well, I gifted the Ballet wallet to the family member I mentioned, and he was very happy to get it... So let's hope Ballet doesn't have a master list of private keys stored wherever they're located.  It's a damn nice-looking wallet, and it's easy to store.  That security issue just makes my skin crawl, though.

The Ballet wallets do look cool, but I agree about any key that's been generated by others.  I recently gifted my brother a couple of bitcoin pennies DIY coins.  I funded them myself, and of course I generated the keys myself.  I did warn my brother that he has no guarantee that I didn't keep a copy of the keys.    I did save a copy, just in case he loses the pennies.

I would use such a gift to do exactly what you're trying to do; educate a curious family member or friend.  Now that they have a stake in the game, they'll have real motivation to learn about bitcoin.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I'm bumping this thread with a question for those who might have some knowledge of how the Ballet wallets function.

Seems to me that the only way to get your coins off a Ballet wallet is to use Ballet's app (which I recently did as an experiment with one that I had).  My question is whether it would be possible to get access to your coins if Ballet as a company just up and disappeared one day--and let's say that the app was no longer functional.  The private key is underneath the sticker, and then there's the scratch-off passcode, and it's the latter that concerns me. 

I think I tried to enter the private key into an Electrum wallet with no success and had to use the app in order to send my bitcoin to the wallet instead (this was a few weeks ago, and I can't remember exactly what I tried).  But if you're not able to do that and are dependent on Ballet as a company surviving for as long as you intend to keep your funds on a Ballet wallet, then I'd say that's a major problem.

Anyone know for sure about this?

[o_e_l_e_o]

My question is whether it would be possible to get access to your coins if Ballet as a company just up and disappeared one day--and let's say that the app was no longer functional.  The private key is underneath the sticker, and then there's the scratch-off passcode, and it's the latter that concerns me.

The encrypted private key under the sticker and the passphrase under the scratch panel are generated following the BIP38 protocol. This is an open source and widely implemented protocol for encrypting private keys, so it should theoretically be as easy as taking your encrypted private key and passphrase to any other BIP38 supporting wallet or site (such as https://www.bitaddress.org - offline, of course!), typing them in, obtaining your decrypted private key, and then using that to import to your wallet and/or spend your coins.

[khaled0111]

^^
That's correct.
You have to decrypt the bip38 private key (starts with 6P) before being able to import it into Electrum. You can decrypt it using bitaddress.org as o_e_l_e_o suggested or using their own open-source tool which you can find here:
https://www.balletcrypto.org/
(make sure to run it offline)

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Ah!  That definitely answers my question and I appreciate the answers.  So the bottom line as I now understand it is that Ballet and their app could disappear from the face of the earth and I'd still be able to transfer coins off a Ballet wallet.  That's reassuring, even if there's still a major security concern given that nobody knows if Ballet or anyone in their circle that has access to all the private keys they've generated have kept track of those keys and intend to hack a bunch of wallets eventually.

Hopefully that'll never happen, but that's the big bugaboo in my mind with the Ballet.  And it's such a nice-looking wallet, too.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So the bottom line as I now understand it is that Ballet and their app could disappear from the face of the earth and I'd still be able to transfer coins off a Ballet wallet.

This is correct, assuming they are actually using BIP38 as they state on their website. I have no reason to doubt them, there is no reason for them not to, and I suspect we would have heard by now if they were not, but I do not own a Ballet wallet so cannot verify this.

That's reassuring, even if there's still a major security concern given that nobody knows if Ballet or anyone in their circle that has access to all the private keys they've generated have kept track of those keys and intend to hack a bunch of wallets eventually.

This is the reason I do not own a Ballet wallet. They state they do not know the keys, but this is unverifiable and requires a level of trust I am not comfortable with. Their Pro series does use the BIP38 intermediate key, so you can verify they do not know your keys, but it is prohibitively expensive. I don't see why they don't use intermediate keys for all their products - they are categorically better than the alternative.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Their Pro series does use the BIP38 intermediate key, so you can verify they do not know your keys, but it is prohibitively expensive. I don't see why they don't use intermediate keys for all their products - they are categorically better than the alternative.

And the Pro series isn't even available yet as far as I can tell.  Every time I've visited their website, the availability date keeps getting pushed forward.  Does anyone own a Pro series Ballet wallet here? 

And yeah, I'd say for what it is it definitely is way too expensive.  You could buy a couple of Ledgers for the price of a single Pro Ballet wallet, and while they're certainly nice-looking and probably very secure, those factors don't justify the price IMO unless you were buying one as a collectible or something.  Given that not many people are likely to buy them, it probably would make a nice collectible to own years from now.