jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 05:49:34 PM |
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Hey all. So i haven't used my nano ledger s for sending/receiving in a while. I just want to confirm this before anything.
I have btc and btc cash in my nano ledger s wallet. But i also did download bitcoin gold wallet as well but have no bitcoin gold.
When i want to receive btc... i go to receive on ledger live... then it gives me option of which to chose from... there are a few options...
bitcoin 1 native segwit 0 btc
bitcoin 1 segwit x btc
bitcoin cash 1 x bitcoin cash
bitcoin gold 1 0 bitcoin gold
When i look at this, the only balances that shows is bitcoin 1 segwit and bitcoin cash 1 since i have only btc and bch. Now I would then click on bitcoin 1 segwit and click next right?
When I do this, it gives me a long btc address that stars with the number 3. Then you check it on nano ledger s to see if the address is correct... then you click approve right? The thing is when i disconnected my nano ledger s and did this again to repeat this... it would show the same address that starts with the number 3. Does that mean this is the default btc receiving address for my nano ledger s?
Can you all confirm this is my btc receiving address? As you see i have segwit and native segwit... but im pretty certain i only use segwit right?
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Rath_
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December 26, 2020, 05:55:54 PM |
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When I do this, it gives me a long btc address that stars with the number 3. Then you check it on nano ledger s to see if the address is correct... then you click approve right?
That's correct. You still need to be careful when you send it to someone else. Some malware could replace your address once you copy it to your clipboard. The thing is when i disconnected my nano ledger s and did this again to repeat this... it would show the same address that starts with the number 3. Does that mean this is the default btc receiving address for my nano ledger s?
No. Your Ledger will generate a new address once you use the one you are talking about. Can you all confirm this is my btc receiving address? As you see i have segwit and native segwit... but im pretty certain i only use segwit right?
Yes, it is your receiving address. What do you mean by "use" here? Even though your native SegWit account is empty, you can use it alongside your SegWit account for future payments. Most wallets and exchanges already support sending to native SegWit addresses.
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 06:03:45 PM |
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I like to add... a long time ago... i kept btc in electrum. Then when i got a nano ledger s later on... i moved all my coins from electrum to nano ledger s. Then my nano ledger s stopped working... then i got a replacement and restored my seed on the new nano ledger s.
I recall when i first set up nano ledger s... it asked me if i wanted legacy or segwit. I dont recall which one it was but im pretty certain it was segwit. I think i choosed segwit as other people said its cheaper to send fees. Is there a way to check this? But that old nano ledger s didn't work anymore.
I think when i first set up electrum... it was default legacy? Electrum is either legacy or segwit right?
What I can say is the last time i received btc when looking at my ledger live history transactions, first character was a number 3 and it shows bitcoin 1 (segwit)
But with this new nano ledger s i got not that long ago, i never sent/received yet. Just restored it etc.
So I'm assuming the receiving address it showed in the ledger live and on my nano ledger s screen... is the btc receiving address i would put down if i receive some btc now?
The other thing is this. I just googled native segwit and segwit and it seems more ppl say native segwit is better because of cheaper fees is that true? So could i later on... go from segwit to native segwit? Or would you not recommend it?
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AB de Royse777
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December 26, 2020, 06:06:08 PM |
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Ledger using with ledger live is a pain honestly speaking. Try with Electrum if you want to find it easy to use. Connect and unlock your Ledger device. Open the Bitcoin app. Launch Electrum from your applications folder. The install wizard opens. Leave the default wallet name and click Next. Select Standard wallet and click Next. At the keystore screen, select Use a hardware device and click Next. Select your Ledger device and click next. Choose the right derivation path for your account and click Next: Legacy for an account that has addresses starting with a 1 p2sh-segwit for an account that has addresses starting with a 3 Native segwit for an account with addresses starting with a bc1 https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005161925-Set-up-and-use-ElectrumThis is all you need to know. And when you download Electrum make sure that you are downloading it from their official site and also verifying the signature. At the start you do some hard work but once you have your ledger configured with your Electrum client, life is easier for you. In the address tab you can see all your address very easily. You will not need to be worried about address starting with 1 or bc1 or 3. All will be there once you retrieve them for individual type.
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Rath_
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I recall when i first set up nano ledger s... it asked me if i wanted legacy or segwit. I dont recall which one it was but im pretty certain it was segwit. I think i choosed segwit as other people said its cheaper to send fees. Is there a way to check this? But that old nano ledger s didn't work anymore.
Ledger Live should automatically detect if you have any coins on a legacy account, and should suggest adding it. Otherwise, you won't be able to add it manually. I think when i first set up electrum... it was default legacy? Electrum is either legacy or segwit right?
It has been defaulting to native SegWit for quite some time now. It was probably legacy in your case since Electrum generates only native SegWit addresses (bc1...) when you choose SegWit. So I'm assuming the receiving address it showed in the ledger live and on my nano ledger s screen... is the btc receiving address i would put down if i receive some btc now?
That's correct. I just googled native segwit and segwit and it seems more ppl say native segwit is better because of cheaper fees is that true? So could i later on... go from segwit to native segwit? Or would you not recommend it?
Yes, it is true. I have been using a native SegWit address as my main one for over 2 years now. You can keep your coins on a SegWit account for now and move them once the fees go down (or keep them where they are), but you can start receiving your future payments to your native SegWit account.
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 06:29:18 PM |
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Well I used electrum a long time ago and after that... i haven't used it anymore after sending my coins to nano ledger s.
Okay well right now... i have 0 btc in bitcoin native segwit. All my btc are in segwit. So you say i should receive any btc to native segwit starting from now and in the future? Is there any issue just receiving it on the segwit address as I keep all the btc there?
Thing is it would look a bit weird when i see a very tiny amount of btc in the native segwit and more of it in the segwit address. In a way i kind of want it all in one wallet.
But how much are the fees when sending from segwit to another address as compared to sending from native segwit to another address right now? I haven't sent btc in a very long time. I did recall i read sending feees has went up
Like imagine you send 0.01 btc. Or what if someone want to send a huge amount like 1 btc? What are the fees?
So you say overall, its not good to keep all your btc in segwit? Since selling them or transferring them will cost a lot more than if your btc was in native segwit? And when did native segwit because the standard for the main address? I think when i set up the nano ledger so over 2 years ago or so... I set up segwit and only option was segwit or legacy right? So when they native segwit come in?
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 07:02:41 PM |
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So to everyone else... almost all of you receive btc to your native segwit address now as oppose to segwit address?
Again, i like to know when did native segwit because the normal? Years ago when i created nano ledger wallet address... i am pretty sure only option was legacy or segwit right? Thus only two options?
But now... its only native segwit or segwit? Back then i recall if you picked segwit over legacy, you do this because the fees were cheaper. So nowadays, its because native segwit is cheaper? Also to those of you who kept your btc in your segwit address... did you move them to the native segwit? I assume if you are holding... not a big deal. But if you send and receive btc a lot, its a must to move the btc to the native segwit address?
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Rath_
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December 26, 2020, 07:07:44 PM |
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So you say i should receive any btc to native segwit starting from now and in the future? Is there any issue just receiving it on the segwit address as I keep all the btc there?
Yes, I would recommend you doing that. Some old software won't be able to send coins to your native SegWit address, but if you use major exchanges, it shouldn't be a problem. Check out this compatibility list. Thing is it would look a bit weird when i see a very tiny amount of btc in the native segwit and more of it in the segwit address. In a way i kind of want it all in one wallet.
Ah, I see. You won't be able to spend from those two accounts in a single transaction. You will see their combined balance in Ledger Live, though. But how much are the fees when sending from segwit to another address as compared to sending from native segwit to another address right now? I haven't sent btc in a very long time. I did recall i read sending feees has went up
I have just double-checked the fees and it looks like I was wrong. Despite the growing price, they are quite low. You should get your transaction confirmed in the next block if you pay 6 sat/byte. You would now pay 6 sat/byte no matter what type of address you used. The difference is in the size of the transaction made from each type of address. See the answer below. Like imagine you send 0.01 btc. Or what if someone want to send a huge amount like 1 btc? What are the fees?
There is no straight answer to this question. The final fee heavily depends on the transaction size. The size increases as you add more inputs and outputs. You will pay more for a 1 BTC transaction if you received, for example, 0.2 BTC, 0.5 BTC and 0.3 BTC and not 1 BTC in a single transaction. Also, inputs and outputs for each type of address have a different weight. Native SegWit inputs/outputs weight the least, thus transactions made from such an address are the cheapest. A legacy input weights 149 vbytes; SegWit 93 vbytes and native SegWit 68 vbytes. As you can see, you can pay over 50% less for a single input if you move from a legacy address to a native SegWit one. The savings on outputs are negligible. See this post for more detailed information. You can play with this website to see it for yourself. Keep in mind that this website does not have a slider for native SegWit. So you say overall, its not good to keep all your btc in segwit? Since selling them or transferring them will cost a lot more than if your btc was in native segwit?
It is better than keeping your coins on a legacy address. You get slightly lower fees, but why not use native SegWit and save even more money?
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 07:31:23 PM |
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Hey.
I assume you made a mistake in your post when you say some old software won't be able to send coins to your segwit address right? You say native segwit address in your post.
When did native segwit became the norm? Again when i set up my nano ledger s wallet two years ago, option was legacy or segwit... that was it. So when has it been only native segwit or segwit. Like when exactly did native segwit come in?
Also, wouldn't it mean most likely lot of ppl keep their btc in segwit as oppose to native segwit if they are holders and haven't moved their btc in a while if they been using a hardware wallet like ledger s for years? Can't imagine btc holders who been holding for at least two years or more in their nano ledger s decide to just send all their btc to native segwit from segwit right? I gotta assume most btc holders with nano ledger s have their coins in segwit vs native segwit right?
Yea i see in the accounts section of ledger live... native segwit with balance 0 and segwit with a balance... and yea i know they combine everything in ledger live.
The fees... you mean if you are sending those three different amounts totaling one btc as oppose to just one btc in a transaction right? You say receiving... which im confused at because well there is no receiving fees when receiving btc...
You say its better to keep your coins in a legacy address. Wait... native segwit is a legacy address?
I thought its a segwit since well it has that word segwit...
Well yea using native segwit makes sense in saving even more money. The thing is i have my all btc in segwit wallet. If i was starting a new wallet nor or just start to receive btc, it make sense to receive it in the native segwit since its cheaper.
So i thought well if i receive btc now and use segwit like where my balance is... is there really any harm? For example imagine you have 1 btc to make it simple. Now you want to receive btc... and send it to your native segwit address which you have no balance and never used and let say you are receiving 0.01 btc. I mean... having it sent to your segwit address wouldn't really be a big difference right? Imagine having 1.01 btc in your segwit address... or 0.01 btc in your native segwit and 1 btc in your segwit address. I mean if you going to send the entire balance later on to the native segwit... 1 btc or 1.01btc is going to be pretty much close to same price right? Or if you plan to hold for a while, not a big difference? I mean i can't imagine holders who haven't touched their btc in years... decide to okay... let me send all my btc from segwit to native segwit so i save fees in future when i sell right?
Now if you want to send many small btc amounts...then obviously you will pay a little bit more since the btc is in the segwit address.
Im curious who else keep their btc in a segwit address here? I have to assume holders are doing so right as they don't touch their btc in their nano ledger s?
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o_e_l_e_o
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December 26, 2020, 07:47:47 PM |
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I assume you made a mistake in your post when you say some old software won't be able to send coins to your segwit address right? Some outdated software and services will not recognize native segwit (bc1) addresses. Everything should recognize nested segwit (3) addresses. Like when exactly did native segwit come in? The segwit softfork was implemented in August 2017. Ledger Live added native segwit support around June 2019, if I remember correctly. I gotta assume most btc holders with nano ledger s have their coins in segwit vs native segwit right? Who knows? Some will have moved their funds to native segwit to take advantage of lower fees, some will not. Impossible to put a figure on it. -snip- No, it doesn't really make a huge difference if you leave your funds in nested segwit or move them all to native segwit if you aren't making frequent transactions. If I were you, I would simply receive all new funds to native segwit addresses, and the next time I need to pay someone or send some coins somewhere, use up the coins from my nested segwit addresses until all my funds were eventually in native segwit.
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Rath_
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December 26, 2020, 07:53:26 PM |
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I assume you made a mistake in your post when you say some old software won't be able to send coins to your segwit address right? You say native segwit address in your post.
My reply is correct. (nested) SegWit (3...) ensures full compatibility while sending to native SegWit (bc1...) addresses will be a problem for outdated software. However, I don't think that's a real problem since most services and exchanges updated their software. When did native segwit became the norm? Again when i set up my nano ledger s wallet two years ago, option was legacy or segwit... that was it. So when has it been only native segwit or segwit. Like when exactly did native segwit come in?
I don't remember when it was added to Ledger Live, but I recall that it started to be enforced as a default about half a year ago. The fees... you mean if you are sending those three different amounts totaling one btc as oppose to just one btc in a transaction right? You say receiving... which im confused at because well there is no receiving fees when receiving btc...
You're right. There are no fees for receiving Bitcoin. I gave you an example showing that you are going to pay more for a transaction when you combine 3 small UTXOs (inputs) into 1 Bitcoin rather than when you use 1 UTXO worth 1 BTC. You say its better to keep your coins in a legacy address. Wait... native segwit is a legacy address?
I wrote that having your coins on a SegWit address is better than having them on a legacy address, but you could save more money in the future by moving to native SegWit.
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 07:59:04 PM |
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I assume you made a mistake in your post when you say some old software won't be able to send coins to your segwit address right? Some outdated software and services will not recognize native segwit (bc1) addresses. Everything should recognize nested segwit (3) addresses. Like when exactly did native segwit come in? The segwit softfork was implemented in August 2017. Ledger Live added native segwit support around June 2019, if I remember correctly. I gotta assume most btc holders with nano ledger s have their coins in segwit vs native segwit right? Who knows? Some will have moved their funds to native segwit to take advantage of lower fees, some will not. Impossible to put a figure on it. -snip- No, it doesn't really make a huge difference if you leave your funds in nested segwit or move them all to native segwit if you aren't making frequent transactions. If I were you, I would simply receive all new funds to native segwit addresses, and the next time I need to pay someone or send some coins somewhere, use up the coins from my nested segwit addresses until all my funds were eventually in native segwit. Hey okay... so segwit which i have coins in... is what most sites accept. For some reason, i read it as native segwit was the main thing now and what i use segwit... might not work. That make sense when you say June 2019, as i set up my nano ledger s the year before that. And thus from June 2019, I didn't send/receive much btc anymore. You say i should receive all new funds in native segwit addresses from now on. But since its been mentioned some sites will not recognize native segwit ... in a way... isn' it better you play it safe by just receiving btc to the segwit address instead? Also when you say some sites won't recognize native segwit... you mean them sending btc right and not receiving? Or is it the other way around?
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Rath_
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December 26, 2020, 08:02:27 PM |
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Also when you say some sites won't recognize native segwit... you mean them sending btc right and not receiving? Or is it the other way around?
Those sites might not be able to send coins to your address, but you will be always able to spend your coins. But since its been mentioned some sites will not recognize native segwit ... in a way... isn' it better you play it safe by just receiving btc to the segwit address instead?
That depends on what services you use. See this list. Pay attention to "Send to" or "Withdrawal address". You will be fine with the vast majority of exchanges and all payment processors. Other Bitcoin users usually keep their wallets up-to-date, so receiving coins from them shouldn't be a problem either.
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 08:07:46 PM |
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Okay... so when you say having your coins in a segwit address is better than legacy translates to having your coins in a segwit address is better than a native segwit right? Or do you mean the old legacy from years ago before native segwit was introduced?
Well using my example that i gave... let say you have 1 btc to make the math simple. You want to receive 0.01 btc right now. You have 0 btc in the native segwit address and 1 btc in the segwit address. It's not really a big deal just giving that site/person my segwit address right as oppose to native segwit? Since that way... you would have 1.01 btc in segwit address as oppose to 1 btc in segwit and 0.01 in native segwit?
Thus its only a big deal if you are sending a lot of times? If you are holding, well no big deal then right? Just send the btc all from the segwit to native segwit in the future?
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Rath_
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December 26, 2020, 08:12:04 PM |
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Okay... so when you say having your coins in a segwit address is better than legacy translates to having your coins in a segwit address is better than a native segwit right? Or do you mean the old legacy from years ago before native segwit was introduced?
When I and other people talk about a legacy address, we mean an address starting with 1. In terms of the fees, native SegWit > (nested) SegWit > legacy address. Since that way... you would have 1.01 btc in segwit address as oppose to 1 btc in segwit and 0.01 in native segwit?
That's correct. Thus its only a big deal if you are sending a lot of times? If you are holding, well no big deal then right? Just send the btc all from the segwit to native segwit in the future?
It's no big deal if you just hold. It makes a huge difference if you receive many small frequent payments which you later spend in a single transaction.
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 08:21:04 PM |
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Just to make sure... when you and others talk about legacy address.. you mean the ones that start with a 1. So native segwit addresses start with a 1 right? I know legacy address start with a 1 and nested segwit start with a 3 right? Also i dont hear much ppl call it nested segwit. Most seem to say just segwit.
Because i been mainly using the one that start with a 3 when i check my previous received btc to my nano ledger s in ledger live.
You say its no big deal which receiving address i use such as native segwit or the one i been using segwit if i just hold.
But if i receiving many small frequent payments which i will later spend in one single transaction... how would that make a difference? Example imagine receiving 0.01 btc , 0.01 btc and another 0.01 btc. Now you have 1.03 btc in your segwit address. Now you send the entire 1.03 btc from segwit to native segwit. That is not much of an price fee difference right as oppose to sending 1 btc from segwit to native segwit?
I assume you mean like you then spend 0.01 btc 3 times etc after receiving 0.01 btc 3 different times? Is that what you mean? If so, okay i understand that.
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Rath_
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December 26, 2020, 08:34:01 PM |
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Just to make sure... when you and others talk about legacy address.. you mean the ones that start with a 1. So native segwit addresses start with a 1 right? I know legacy address start with a 1 and nested segwit start with a 3 right? Also i dont hear much ppl call it nested segwit. Most seem to say just segwit.
Legacy - 1..., (nested) SegWit - 3..., native SegWit - bc1... "SegWit address" can technically refer to both nested SegWit and native SegWit address. Adding "nested" helps to be more precise. That is not much of an price fee difference right as oppose to sending 1 btc from segwit to native segwit?
If you receive 3x 0.01 BTC and 1x 1 BTC then you will have 4 inputs when you try to spend 1.03 BTC. Such a transaction will be slightly more expensive if you send it from a nested SegWit address. I assume you mean like you then spend 0.01 btc 3 times etc after receiving 0.01 btc 3 different times? Is that what you mean? If so, okay i understand that.
You're close. I meant spending 0.03 BTC after receiving 0.01 BTC 3 times.
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jerry0 (OP)
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December 26, 2020, 09:21:35 PM |
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Well i mean in the example you receive 0.01 btc , 0.01 btc and another 0.01 btc. But i mean assuming you already have 1 btc in your segwit wallet balance to start.
Now you have 1.03 btc in your segwit address. So if you choose to send 0.03 btc to someone in nested segwit in one transaction, compared to sending 0.01 btc three different times... which is more expensive? Now if you do this with native segwit... either way price difference isn't going to be much difference right? But nested it would be but you say slightly?
Im confused why it would cost a bit more sending 0.03 btc at once when receiving 0.01btc 3 times. You mentioned inputs... has it always been like that even with legacy in nano ledger s? What about electrum?
So for example... if someone has 1 btc... but they received it in over 50 tiny transactions... then try to send the entire balance to someone or a site... and compare that to someone who has 1 btc but received it in either one or two transactions and they are sending it to someone or a site... that second person will pay a ton in fees compared to the first person because there are 50 inputs in the first guy but only one or two with the second guy?
Also i recall with electrum, you could change the fees and pay very little... of course transaction will take very long. But can you do that with nano ledger s still especially if you have lot of inputs?
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Rath_
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December 27, 2020, 12:41:03 AM |
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So if you choose to send 0.03 btc to someone in nested segwit in one transaction, compared to sending 0.01 btc three different times... which is more expensive?
Apart from inputs and outputs, each transaction contains some other data which also increase the weight. That's why it will be cheaper to send a transaction with 3 inputs rather than 3 smaller transactions. So for example... if someone has 1 btc... but they received it in over 50 tiny transactions... then try to send the entire balance to someone or a site... and compare that to someone who has 1 btc but received it in either one or two transactions and they are sending it to someone or a site... that second person will pay a ton in fees compared to the first person because there are 50 inputs in the first guy but only one or two with the second guy?
The person with the 50 inputs will pay way more than the other person. But can you do that with nano ledger s still especially if you have lot of inputs?
Yes, you can enter whatever transaction fee you want in sat/byte.
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o_e_l_e_o
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December 27, 2020, 08:27:21 AM |
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Now you have 1.03 btc in your segwit address. So if you choose to send 0.03 btc to someone in nested segwit in one transaction, compared to sending 0.01 btc three different times... which is more expensive? Now if you do this with native segwit... either way price difference isn't going to be much difference right? But nested it would be but you say slightly? As well as the inputs, a transaction also needs to include data relating to the version, an optional flag, the input count, the output count, the outputs themselves, and the locktime. All of these things take up space. If you send one transaction with three inputs, you only need to send all these things once. If you send three separate transactions, you need to send all these things three times. Three transactions with one input each will take up much more space than one transaction using the same three inputs. Im confused why it would cost a bit more sending 0.03 btc at once when receiving 0.01btc 3 times. You mentioned inputs... has it always been like that even with legacy in nano ledger s? What about electrum? If you have received 3x 0.01 BTC and want to spend 0.03 BTC in a transaction, then in your transaction you must specify "Include input 1" and "Include input 2" and "Include input 3". If you have received 1 BTC and want to spend 0.03 BTC, then you must only specify "Include input 1". This takes up less data, and so is therefore cheaper in terms of fees.
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