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Author Topic: It is pointless if the BTC fees increases along with rise in BTC price!  (Read 541 times)
so98nn
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December 27, 2020, 08:35:13 AM
Merited by nutildah (3)
 #1

The title is applicable to small transactions and not the big fish category (ex. 1000k, 10k or more)

I have observed many times whenever there is rise in the price it will proportionally increase the fees as well. BTC becomes useless if I want transfer my coffee bill worth $5 or lets say lunch of $50 bucks if I have to pay more than 10-15 USD for single transaction.

It feels like I am literally overpaying for the little transactions.


The problem is it's unfair system if we want to make quick payments for daily usage.

For those who are just here to earn money and play in thousands and thousands bucks won't feel it at all.



When do you guys think the fee structure will be harmonised at all the time points and price ranges?

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December 27, 2020, 08:39:28 AM
 #2

I have observed many times whenever there is rise in the price it will proportionally increase the fees as well. BTC becomes useless if I want transfer my coffee bill worth $5 or lets say lunch of $50 bucks if I have to pay more than 10-15 USD for single transaction.
That is the reason for bitcoin lightning network, bitcoin lightning network transaction fee is very negligible, for now, it is as low as $0.00005 or lower. For making small transactions and for everyday transactions that require low amount, people will not have any option later than to resort to bitcoin lightning network which has low transaction fee.

Do not just think that bitcoin is just only a money, it is also an asset.

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December 27, 2020, 08:41:59 AM
 #3

Lightning network. I've used it quite a few times and it was simple to use and saves the fees significantly.

Whilst I've long thought of the risks of unconfirmed transactions being fairly manageable, I don't think that's the case anymore. Opt-IN RBF has to be mandatory in case the fees are too small. Lightning network is mature to the stage whereby it's safe to accept payments using it and it'll be an attractive alternative to the onchain transactions.

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December 27, 2020, 08:44:08 AM
 #4

I have observed many times whenever there is rise in the price it will proportionally increase the fees as well.

The price rises as more people use Bitcoin. The fees rise as more people use Bitcoin. The price does not cause the fees to rise, but they are related, as you can see.

Also, sometimes when there is a quick rise in price, people flood the block chain with transactions, presumably moving coins in and out of exchanges. This causes the fees to rise temporarily.

Buy stuff on Amazon with BTC or convert Amazon points to BTC here: Purse.io
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December 27, 2020, 08:44:13 AM
 #5

I believe all your concerns will be solved when there is Lightning Network applicable in every bitcoin wallet. It seems like every wallet has a feature of Lightning network that can able to transact micro-transactions that you can able to modify fees.

I guess this is the reason why the bitcoin enthusiasts are holding their bitcoin and never spend on a not important matter such as coffee or your lunch. You can use your money instead of using bitcoin. Bitcoin is not a payment method now, it is a safe haven investment and they treat this as a valuable asset, not a payment.

However, you can transfer your bitcoin to a Segwit wallet that supports modifying transactions when the bitcoin network is not busy or congested.

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December 27, 2020, 08:44:28 AM
 #6

Lightning network is made due to this especially if you only want to send a smaller amount. Also using native segwit address or bech32, to have a lesser fee in every transfer.
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December 27, 2020, 08:56:53 AM
 #7

Question..

Are we able to use Electrum Testnet client for setting up and running a lightning node since electrum released a version that supports it some time ago. I've seen this The Lightning Network FAQ thread for a while now, I wonder if it has an Electrum tutorial.

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December 27, 2020, 09:03:43 AM
 #8

It is not pointless if bitcoin is the best store of value in the world. To be a p2p electronic cash system it is a problem indeed but even if this problem weren't solved by lightning network I wouldn't worry much. Bitcoin may differ from the original idea Satoshi had.

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December 27, 2020, 09:05:17 AM
 #9

When do you guys think the fee structure will be harmonised at all the time points and price ranges?
The fee tends not to be directly related to the price; rather, the fee tends to be related to the rate of change of the price. Over a long enough time frame, then the price of bitcoin will tend towards stability. When it does, then the fees will tend towards stability as well.

When the price makes big swings up or down, then fees rise as lots of people scramble to either deposit coins to exchanges to sell, withdraw coins they've just bought, or move coins between exchanges so they can use margins, leverage, trade alts, whatever. When the price is stable, then the fees tend to level out as this surge of activity diminishes. Right now, for example, we are sitting at an all time high, and yet I just had a transaction confirm in the next block with a fee of 3 sats/vbyte. Given this, now would be a great time to drop say 0.02 BTC in to a new Lightning Channel for 3 sats/vbyte, and I can pay for 3 months worth of coffee for the fee of a couple of cents.


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December 27, 2020, 09:29:20 AM
 #10

So in short everyone thinks that one should start using lightening network rather than using btc itself.
It's like using alternative for your stuff.

No issues, since we are in the cypto space and it has already given us more than enough in terms of value, returns or money making stuff at it's best one can tolerate that much of struggle. Lolz.

But would have been better if fees were in control. Like the traditional banking system.

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December 27, 2020, 10:08:13 AM
 #11

But would have been better if fees were in control. Like the traditional banking system.
Yeah, Bitcoin surely isn't a perfect network and there are lots of things that could be changed to make it better. Have you thought about using Coin Control so that you set your own fees instead? The network is pretty clogged up during parabolic bull/bear runs, so expect those smaller fees to get buried in the mempool until things cool down a bit.

I honestly don't think Bitcoin is suitable for daily usage. It fits better as a store of value than as a daily driver..
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December 27, 2020, 10:14:43 AM
 #12

I have observed many times whenever there is rise in the price it will proportionally increase the fees as well. BTC becomes useless if I want transfer my coffee bill worth $5 or lets say lunch of $50 bucks if I have to pay more than 10-15 USD for single transaction.
Bitcoin is a digital gold and despite of the fact that bitcoin is able to used as a mean of transactions, it is not a perfect tool for you (at least now) to be used as a payment method. Bitcoin is more similar to a storage asset, not a payment method. The Lightning Network can help bitcoin adoption and expand its usecase as a payment method. It is for the future and maybe in the future, there will be more solutions and not only Lightning Network.

Quote
The problem is it's unfair system if we want to make quick payments for daily usage.
The average bitcoin blocktime is 10 minutes so that you can not ask for quick transactions. You need to wait about 10 minutes in average even if you use the highest fee on the mempool. Of course, it can be confirmed anytime in few seconds to 10 minutes after you broadcast your transaction.

The beauty of Bitcoin is it has a very healthy network, with too high total hashrates so that your fund and your transactions will be secured by the network. Your transaction on altcoin networks can be double spent but on the bitcoin network, the probability is almost zero.


Think different!

I think of transaction fee in satoshi per the total amount of bitcoin or satoshi in my transaction. If I look at the issue like this, I always find opportunities to move my bitcoin with cheap fee.

Obviously, the fee in USD will be different and it is affect seriously by the price per one bitcoin.

Example with https://bitcoindata.science/plot-your-transaction-in-mempool.html
  • I make a transaction with 1 input, 2 outputs, and the address format is Bech32.
  • Amount of BTC in the transaction: 0.01 BTC
  • Fee rate is 1 sat/(v)byte
  • Fee: 0.00000142 BTC
  • The fee costs 0.0142% of my the transaction value. It is not expensive.

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December 27, 2020, 12:40:11 PM
 #13

This is a real headache for now. When I want to sell my $20 for a local currency but discovered the transaction fee is 50%. I have seen people talking about bitcoin lightning network but I am yet to understand how this network works. There are many crypto wallet out there, both custodian and non custodian wallet but I am yet to know the reason why most of them (if not all) have not integrated the lightning network to their wallet maybe now that the transaction fee is getting high, there will be improvement in this area in order for the network to accommodate everyone both people making huge transaction and others with little coin transfer can do so with considerably low transaction fee.
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December 27, 2020, 12:53:18 PM
 #14

Agree, but it is good also if transaction fee could be reduce right? so that we can somehow feel the increase of btc along especially now that btc are going to go and record ATH. Probably by the end of 2020 we can see the ATH and I am believing it could reach up to 30K$. If that really happen then I will going to regret not believing bitcoin and instead selling some btc that I earn through bounty hunting. Well, probably I am not that really greedy so no need for me to wait for the 30K$ but again somehow I do regret it.
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December 27, 2020, 12:55:48 PM
 #15

It is probably the greed in the big mining companies to take advantage of the current pump by clogging the mempool by not allowing any low sat fee transactions to go through into any block and taking only high sat fee transactions for confirmations. This gives the air to the greed of other small miners too, and they also set the minimum fee higher to attract high fee transactions in their blocks. We still get some chances to get our transactions confirmed but till then, we need to wait upon their mercy. Lightning Network is useful but not easy for an average guy to understand it, so those guys don't use it thinking about its complications. If you want to send quick transfers, I think altcoins like trx and xrp are good to use to save lots over fees.

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December 27, 2020, 01:24:53 PM
 #16

Forget about paying for your coffee on chain, Bitcoin can't work like that, there's simply not enough capacity on the network for that. And even when fees were low, you'd still have to wait 10 minutes for confirmation - how would Bitcoin compete with banks that offer instant payments or with payment apps that offer the same? Lightning network is the only way to make Bitcoin usable for small transactions, and you can already adopt it on mainnet if you want.

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December 27, 2020, 02:11:52 PM
 #17

I totally agree and this is a constant polemic. the price of an item is cheaper than the shipping cost. very ineffective if this continues. this will be the trigger for collapse where confidence in transaction fees diminishes.
indeed the desired expectation is that price equality is relatively the same. but it is difficult to materialize, considering that there is no single system in the cryptocurrency world.

If one day a service other than Bitcoin offering low shipping rates will make things change? I'm looking forward to that breakthrough, to become an alternative that traders will admire.
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December 27, 2020, 02:27:04 PM
 #18

I have observed many times whenever there is rise in the price it will proportionally increase the fees as well.

The price rises as more people use Bitcoin. The fees rise as more people use Bitcoin. The price does not cause the fees to rise, but they are related, as you can see.

Also, sometimes when there is a quick rise in price, people flood the block chain with transactions, presumably moving coins in and out of exchanges. This causes the fees to rise temporarily.
got curious and start reading around google. correct me if I am wrong but does this mean that the reason why the transaction fee increases (other than people flooding the blockchain with transactions) is that there are not enough miners to solve blocks every ten minutes to keep the transaction traffic to minimal?

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December 27, 2020, 02:38:15 PM
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 #19

Probably a Luddite view here, but I can't see Lightning being the solution long term, unless we all accept there being a few major clearing nodes to be our trusted middlemen. (MicroStrategy, Amazon, CoinBase, Gemini, Chase, etc.) They will offer to pay all Level 1 and Level 2 transaction fees to be the custodians of your BTC so that you can use Lightning. These major players will figure out how to charge you for that security service. (Amazon will include it with Prime.)

Participating on Level 2 requires a transaction on Level 1 first. The system can't accommodate everyone's participation, nor will many people be able to afford participating. So the middlemen will happily be your BTC lender. And banking 2.0 will be born. Just an interesting excursion to the world of government issued tokens backed by BTC.
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December 27, 2020, 02:47:36 PM
 #20

Why you worry so much when the bitcoin fee is high , worry about if your not earning bitcoin anymore try to find a exchange site or wallet where you can use lighting network for you to have a small fee's and   fast transaction but in my own experience i just save them all for one transaction or if i wanted to withdraw i always exchange my bitcoin into coin that my country has so it will be small fee's and then withdraw it directly into my bank. But it always up to you when you wanna do it or not because we all wishing to have small transaction fee every time we want our money out.

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