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Author Topic: Adjustable Blocksize Cap: Why not?  (Read 1342 times)
amishmanish
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January 22, 2021, 05:20:01 PM
 #81

Ha ,  No.
The Fact that Litecoin has 4X bitcoin transaction capacity ,
means the litecoin miner have the opportunity to make 4X the transaction fees.
If someone finds Litecoin to be better, they can always choose to use it the way they want. A lot of people do use it to move funds from centralized exchanges as its cheaper to do. if enough people use it and it gets as popular, who knows, it may well get to the same point as bitcoin.

The argument about lower blocktime giving more of an opportunity to generate fees is interesting though. Don't know if this is an over-simplification but in 10 minutes, it will process 4 times as many transactions getting the fees. Reducing blocktime may well be one of the scaling options in the distant future for Bitcoin itself.
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January 22, 2021, 06:20:46 PM
 #82

Ha ,  No.
The Fact that Litecoin has 4X bitcoin transaction capacity ,
means the litecoin miner have the opportunity to make 4X the transaction fees.
If someone finds Litecoin to be better, they can always choose to use it the way they want. A lot of people do use it to move funds from centralized exchanges as its cheaper to do. if enough people use it and it gets as popular, who knows, it may well get to the same point as bitcoin.

The argument about lower blocktime giving more of an opportunity to generate fees is interesting though. Don't know if this is an over-simplification but in 10 minutes, it will process 4 times as many transactions getting the fees. Reducing blocktime may well be one of the scaling options in the distant future for Bitcoin itself.

The true scaling options have always been

1.  Increase Block Size
2.  Faster Block Speed

Nothing else increases scaling.
thecodebear
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January 23, 2021, 12:48:01 AM
 #83


That said, the Lightning Network is the only viable solution for low cost transactions...


At some point the block size bottleneck absolutely must be addressed. It's very sad for Bitcoin and the community that it wasn't just addressed and solved back in 2016-2018 when there was such loud debate about it. Could have solved it back then. Gets harder for community to do a hard fork the bigger Bitcoin gets in the world. We don't even need a perfect solution, just A solution that allows bitcoin capacity to grow as bitcoin adoption grows. The worst thing to do was do nothing...which is what was done  Undecided

But yeah LN and centralized third party processors (fintech/banks/etc) are the only way truly low cost transactions at mass scale can happen. Ideally those centralized third parties get on the LN so we have a network of individual power users and companies who service millions each all on LN creating an instantaneous and nearly free bitcoin payment network that is easy for a random Joe to join and use but also allows techie power user Joe to use on his own.

Of course, even with LN you STILL need block size increase on layer 1. Because you need space for all the normal layer 1 tx's plus you need space for all the onboarding, offboarding, topping up LN tx's.

Hopefully in the near future the scaling bottleneck will rear its head again in the community and actual force a solution, for the future of Bitcoin in general but also layer 2 solutions like LN if they are to ever take off.


Personally I have love been a fan of simply adding a block size increase to the halving. A block size increase halving (8x, 4x, 2x, 1.5x, 1.25x, etc - for example) so every four years the block size increases to handle increased adoption, but at a reasonable rate that allows the network and storage & internet speed tech to improve gradually with it. This would allow Bitcoin to gradually increase adoption as an actual transactional medium every four years, and only ever need a single hard fork to solve the problem. It would also allow the LN to grow if indeed it does take off in the future.
pooya87
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January 23, 2021, 05:42:05 AM
 #84

At some point the block size bottleneck absolutely must be addressed. It's very sad for Bitcoin and the community that it wasn't just addressed and solved back in 2016-2018 when there was such loud debate about it. Could have solved it back then.
Scaling is not something that can be solved once and for all. It needs to be addressed every now and then so that we improve upon it and move on until next step in the future. It was addressed in mid 2017 already. We'll address it again with Schnorr fork.

Quote
Gets harder for community to do a hard fork the bigger Bitcoin gets in the world.
I disagree. There is nothing hard about hard forks. They are just harder to perform, otherwise the network can easily upgrade to new version in the signalling period just like they upgrade for the soft-forks. It is not even an issue for light client users, take Electrum for example. Clients lower than 3.3.0 can no longer connect to network, so it is a mandatory update for everyone, similar to what happens in a hard fork.

Quote
But yeah LN and centralized third party processors (fintech/banks/etc) are the only way truly low cost transactions at mass scale can happen.
If people want centralized middle men they can go back to banking system. Otherwise we have LN that they can use in a decentralize manner just as they use bitcoin mainnet.

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Wind_FURY
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January 23, 2021, 11:27:13 AM
 #85

Ha ,  No.
The Fact that Litecoin has 4X bitcoin transaction capacity ,
means the litecoin miner have the opportunity to make 4X the transaction fees.
If someone finds Litecoin to be better, they can always choose to use it the way they want. A lot of people do use it to move funds from centralized exchanges as its cheaper to do. if enough people use it and it gets as popular, who knows, it may well get to the same point as bitcoin.

The argument about lower blocktime giving more of an opportunity to generate fees is interesting though. Don't know if this is an over-simplification but in 10 minutes, it will process 4 times as many transactions getting the fees. Reducing blocktime may well be one of the scaling options in the distant future for Bitcoin itself.

The true scaling options have always been

1.  Increase Block Size
2.  Faster Block Speed

Nothing else increases scaling.


But define “scaling”. If it’s simply to increase the Block Size, and decrease the time between blocks, DESPITE centralizing the validators, then that’s NOT scaling. It has to improve the network’s functionality, but without decreasing the network’s security/decentralization.

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DooMAD
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January 23, 2021, 01:22:56 PM
 #86

It's very sad for Bitcoin and the community that it wasn't just addressed and solved back in 2016-2018 when there was such loud debate about it. Could have solved it back then.

Based on the proposals I was seeing at the time, I'm not convinced of that.  If we had taken any static blocksize increase, that still wouldn't have been a "solution".  There was always more work to do later.  The reason an adjustable blocksize/blockweight wasn't implemented at the time is because no one could guarantee that their proposal at the time was safe from manipulation.  I was following them all rather closely.


The worst thing to do was do nothing...which is what was done  Undecided

Except that's wrong.  At the time of writing, the last block mined was 1468.97kb.  That's 468.97 we didn't have before.  Or, put another way, a ~47% increase over the old 1mb blocks.  People need to stop pretending that we haven't added additional capacity.
IShishkin
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January 23, 2021, 07:34:36 PM
 #87

But define “scaling”. If it’s simply to increase the Block Size, and decrease the time between blocks, DESPITE centralizing the validators, then that’s NOT scaling. It has to improve the network’s functionality, but without decreasing the network’s security/decentralization.
The next question in this riddle is how to define decentralization.
Khaos77
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January 23, 2021, 08:26:01 PM
Last edit: January 23, 2021, 08:39:02 PM by Khaos77
 #88

Ha ,  No.
The Fact that Litecoin has 4X bitcoin transaction capacity ,
means the litecoin miner have the opportunity to make 4X the transaction fees.
If someone finds Litecoin to be better, they can always choose to use it the way they want. A lot of people do use it to move funds from centralized exchanges as its cheaper to do. if enough people use it and it gets as popular, who knows, it may well get to the same point as bitcoin.

The argument about lower blocktime giving more of an opportunity to generate fees is interesting though. Don't know if this is an over-simplification but in 10 minutes, it will process 4 times as many transactions getting the fees. Reducing blocktime may well be one of the scaling options in the distant future for Bitcoin itself.

The true scaling options have always been

1.  Increase Block Size
2.  Faster Block Speed

Nothing else increases scaling.


But define “scaling”. If it’s simply to increase the Block Size, and decrease the time between blocks, DESPITE centralizing the validators, then that’s NOT scaling. It has to improve the network’s functionality, but without decreasing the network’s security/decentralization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalability
Quote
Scalability is the property of a system to handle a growing amount of work by adding resources to the system.

Adding resources to a system, in short: bigger blocks or more blocks in a shorter time frame.


The flaws in your thoughts are the following.

Scaling has zero to do with security.
Security is provided in a PoW coin, by the Mining Pools that together control greater than 51%.
Size or speed of the blocks or emptiness or fullness of the block are irrelevant to the above.
# of non-mining nodes are irrelevant to the above , as they only relay block data.
(Their is a false belief that more non-mining nodes actually help secure the network, sorry if you believe that your understanding is false.)

Decentralization is a buzzword , that you use as holy scripture, when you are utterly wrong.
All that matters are the mining nodes, 1 non-mining node or 1 billion, they do nothing but relay blocks.
1 block explorer (mining or non-mining) is all one needs to see if miners modify the block rewards or code ,
just 1 , running other non-mining nodes offer no real value except as a personal receipt holders ,
which if you are not making personal transactions daily is a waste of time.
*Note a valid 51% attack will reorg the chain mining or non-mining will not stop it , only relay it.
*When Satoshi started bitcoin, all nodes mattered because all were mining.*

LN, your supposed solutions is the most centralized design of all.
LN hubs have to process millions of transactions, have to lock millions of value, and need millions of users to be practical.
What institutions process million of transaction storing millions of dollars, and have millions of users. ie: Banks
LN hubs were designed from the beginning to be for bankers, as individuals will never have the resources to actually profit from them.
So LN users, you just help beta test the banks new software before they LN fee you into slavery again.  

Ask yourself,
Why does Litecoin have 4X the transaction capacity of bitcoin?
Why can Dogecoin do 10MB in 10 minutes and bitcoin can't?
Why do other coins have increased transaction capacity at transaction fees ~400X lower than bitcoin.
Why does bitcoin need LN and all of the others don't?
Why is bitcoin technically inferior to these lower cost coins.

If you have a semblance of honestly , you should realize the only reason is bitcoin is being artificially limited by it's supposed developers.

Odds are you will just fall back into your bitcoin cult mantra chants, and ignore the reality facing you.

 Cool
DooMAD
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January 23, 2021, 11:03:36 PM
 #89

*nonsense*

I don't know if you're spouting idiocy because you simply want to expose your ignorance, or if you're genuinely trying to convert anyone with your abject drivel, but I don't think anyone in the Development & Technical Discussion subforum, of all places, is going to fall for it.

Network governance is either something you don't understand or fail to appreciate the significance of.  Part of the security we're talking about is the strength of the network to resist implementing terrible ideas that would weaken it.  If there were solely SPV users and miners, it would be far easier for corruption to set in and allow pools to collude and force undesirable changes to the protocol.  Non-mining full nodes prevent that.   If you can't comprehend the part where running a full node is an enacting of will where you quite literally enforce rules by rejecting any blocks that don't adhere to the requirements denoted within the software, then don't bother commenting because you just sound like an imbecile.
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January 24, 2021, 03:56:22 AM
 #90

*incoherent ramblings*

You are one of the bitcoin dev bootlickers,

Explain:
Why does Litecoin have 4X the transaction capacity of bitcoin?
Why can Dogecoin do 10MB in 10 minutes and bitcoin can't?
Why do other coins have increased transaction capacity at transaction fees ~400X lower than bitcoin.
Why does bitcoin need LN and all of the others don't?
Why is bitcoin technically inferior to these lower cost coins.

Go ahead, or is that beyond your false religion?

 

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