Should all scam busting techniques be made public?

[pugman]

Should all scam busting techniques be made public? Well, given we are in 2021, even if you want to it won't matter if you do. There are way too many threads that expose alt accounts.

Exhibit A: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1206112.0,
Exhibit B: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1702409.0,
Exhibit C: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.0

These 3 threads alone are suffice enough for those who want to do the don'ts of the community. Its a lost cause. Same goes for any actual scam investigations, people will look at how frauds and scamcoins have been caught before and will work around it. Too late.

[lovesmayfamilis]

Should all scam busting techniques be made public? Well, given we are in 2021, even if you want to it won't matter if you do. There are way too many threads that expose alt accounts.

Exhibit A: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1206112.0,
Exhibit B: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1702409.0,
Exhibit C: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2544574.0

These 3 threads alone are suffice enough for those who want to do the don'ts of the community. Its a lost cause. Same goes for any actual scam investigations, people will look at how frauds and scamcoins have been caught before and will work around it. Too late.

Two topics are inactive. I agree with eddie13's post about no brain. But the fact is that even while revealing all the methods, those who have absolutely no brain, repeat their mistakes again and again.
Likewise with plagiarism. How many examples and instructions for detecting plagiarism are on the forum, these eccentrics still steal other people's articles.
And I agree that if any major fraud is being prepared, it will be prepared very well.
But do you remember the stories with several ICO, where the office was filmed and the actors who successfully advertised their scams here? And they were also discovered, even though all the evidence was laid out in the public domain.

[pugman]

Two topics are inactive. I agree with eddie13's post about no brain. But the fact is that even while revealing all the methods, those who have absolutely no brain, repeat their mistakes again and again.
Likewise with plagiarism. How many examples and instructions for detecting plagiarism are on the forum, these eccentrics still steal other people's articles.
And I agree that if any major fraud is being prepared, it will be prepared very well.
But do you remember the stories with several ICO, where the office was filmed and the actors who successfully advertised their scams here? And they were also discovered, even though all the evidence was laid out in the public domain.

The point is not about active/inactive threads, its more or less about the info those threads possess. And its not just limited to those 3 threads alone, go to the reputation board and every page has some thread about busting accounts.

I get your point, people are dumb, will make mistakes. So not really worried if some people do abuse the information, I am sure they will be caught one way or another. When you have LoyceV, TryNinja and Vod, the community dont got to worry all that much. 

[hilariousetc]

I think this is the negative side of putting up a scam accusation/reputation thread is that you also come up to how were you able to bust the scam down because without providing enough evidence then you won't really put up a convincing story against who you are accusing.

You have to be able to provide evidence and people should be free to try refute it if they can (and sometimes people do get it wrong or use faulty logic or evidence etc and that's where others can chime in with their opinions or more evidence). Imagine you went to court being accused of something and they didn't show their evidence but just told you you were guilty. That wouldn't fly. If we had a hidden board here it would just be some sort of shady secret court and if someone has done something wrong then it should be exposed and you naturally have to lay out your evidence as part of the process. It should be common sense for most people to not do certain things if they don't want to get caught but that's why it's always going to be cat and mouse and looking for where people slipped up because many do at some point along the way. Criminals know about DNA evidence and other ways they can be tracked but they still leave DNA or get caught on CCTV or triangulated via their self phone of car or whatever but once they do get caught the powers that be still have to prove it even if it exposes their methods which most people should be aware of anyway.

So not really worried if some people do abuse the information, I am sure they will be caught one way or another. When you have LoyceV, TryNinja and Vod, the community dont got to worry all that much. 

Maybe get them on the case of satoshi?  . If you're smart enough it's probably not that hard to be a ghost here.

[Theb]

I think this is the negative side of putting up a scam accusation/reputation thread is that you also come up to how were you able to bust the scam down because without providing enough evidence then you won't really put up a convincing story against who you are accusing.

You have to be able to provide evidence and people should be free to try refute it if they can (and sometimes people do get it wrong or use faulty logic or evidence etc and that's where others can chime in with their opinions or more evidence). Imagine you went to court being accused of something and they didn't show their evidence but just told you you were guilty. That wouldn't fly. If we had a hidden board here it would just be some sort of shady secret court and if someone has done something wrong then it should be exposed and you naturally have to lay out your evidence as part of the process.

This is my whole point, that if you want to accuse someone you must provide evidence for it and in the process of providing that evidence is you also need to provide on how you get there that is why all scam accusations and reputation thread is giving a lot of information even if this information is public and has the potential to make scammers avoid doing the same mistake all over again. On the idea of having a hidden board for busting out scams is something that won't really cut it for anyone even if they provide the same information and only a few people will see it, it would be unfair for the accused to not answer or rebut on what the accuser is saying to him, basically it would be a 1-sided way of having a negative feedback.

[Delighty slyde]

All bursting techniques can't be made public because it will further increase the scam rate. I urge the techniques should be hidden from everyone but the act of the scammer should be flag public and such account should be kicked off from the forum after gone through some queries and discovered the user is guilty of the acts.

[Upgrade00]

such account should be kicked off from the forum after gone through some queries and discovered the user is guilty of the acts.

Scams are unmoderated and would not get anyone kicked off the forum whether or not they are guilt, consequences of scams could be a red trust or a flag.
The op was referring to users who expose how they caught out a scam attempt and if it should be public; For one, it is necessary to detail how you arrived at that conclusion to convince others as well. Even though it could be counter productive by making scammers more aware, it is a necessary system.

[Pmalek]

For one, it is necessary to detail how you arrived at that conclusion to convince others as well. Even though it could be counter productive by making scammers more aware, it is a necessary system.

What I am proposing would only make sense if scammers and wrongdoers were banned by the forum admins. Since that is not case, it doesn't really matter.

Let's say you caught someone in the act of scamming. You have the needed proof to have him banned, but instead of revealing everything in public, all you need to do is present the evidence to those who make the decisions about who gets banned. That's theymos and Cyrus, and possibly other members of the staff who are included in that decision-making process.

Why only them and not the whole Bitcointalk community?
The Bitcointalk community doesn't have a say in who gets banned anyway. theymos doesn't ask the community if he should ban user X or not. He either bans someone or he doesn't. User X will be told he got banned and the reason why. If he wants more information or proof, he can take it up with the forum admins who again make the final decisions whether user X will be unbanned or not.

The usual Meta threads can still be started to appeal the ban or offer support to have user X reinstated.  

But since scammers are not a priority, none of this will ever happen.    

[actmyname]

But since scammers are not a priority, none of this will ever happen.

Beyond all of that, when you first enter the forum, are you ever told, "hey, by the way: read these rules, make sure that you don't associate ranks with trust, and learn about our forum systems"?

Hmph.I believe that you should share these techniques. If they are effective, then others can implement them and you will have exponential effects. If the fear is of scammers learning about these techniques, then consider the duality: you are unaware of the techniques of which both prospective scammers and scam-busters have knowledge. Perhaps the secrecy is for naught: could scam-busting techniques be disclosed and shared amongst scammers? However, what is easier? Evading 20+ strategies and bolstering your OPSEC, or collectively using scam-busting techniques on those with less-than-perfect OPSEC, where even a passing mistake is archived and potentially linked to multiple accounts?

On a level playing field, it's a lot easier being the one having to throw the dodgeballs.

[Rikafip]

Why only them and not the whole Bitcointalk community?
The Bitcointalk community doesn't have a say in who gets banned anyway. theymos doesn't ask the community if he should ban user X or not. He either bans someone or he doesn't. User X will be told he got banned and the reason why. If he wants more information or proof, he can take it up with the forum admins who again make the final decisions whether user X will be unbanned or not.

Keep in mind that by revealing scam busting techniques you are also educating others who may not be interested in scam busting, but may use some of things when evaluating whether to invest their money into something/use some service etc. So if all those evidence and techniques are unavailable to an average forum user, we would miss some serious educational opportunity.

For example, during this bull run one friend told me about some "promising" altcoin project, asking whether I am interested. First thing I did was reverse image search as team looked dodgy, and of course team was fake. Now, if other more experienced scambusters didn't reveal some of those techniques I would think that team is legit, as Google didn't find anything. Only here I learned about Yandex being much better for that purpose, which is my first choice now.

I believe that you should share these techniques. If they are effective, then others can implement them and you will have exponential effects.

+1

[darklus123]

Every case has a slightly different method in solving the crime and I think that every process will be crucial to determine to either let the discussion go further or hit its remark right there and then. Tho, this doesn't mean that I will not agree with your statement @OP yet not fully. Because there will always be innovation to every process and that works for both situations (scammer's end, investigator's end).

It is important to keep few processes (for example keeping it for the next possible discussion if the evidence are not enough) but the priority is to always provide enough details or shreds of evidence.

[Pmalek]

Bump