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Author Topic: Citi Can’t Have Its $900 Million Back  (Read 246 times)
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February 17, 2021, 11:09:33 PM
Last edit: February 17, 2021, 11:24:59 PM by Hydrogen
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Banque Worms

Last August, Citigroup Inc. wired $900 million to some hedge funds by accident. Then it sent a note to the hedge funds saying, oops, sorry about that, please send us the money back. Some did. Others preferred to keep the money. Citi sued them. Yesterday Citi lost, and they got to keep the money. I read the opinion, by U.S. District Judge Jesse Furman, expecting to learn about the New York legal doctrine of finders keepers—more technically, the “discharge-for-value defense”—and I was not disappointed. But I was also treated to a gothic horror story about software design. I had nightmares all night about checking the wrong boxes on the computer.

The story—we have discussed it before—is that, in 2016, Revlon Inc. took out a seven-year syndicated term loan. Citibank N.A. is the administrative agent on the loan; it gets interest and principal payments from Revlon and passes them on to the lenders. Revlon ran into a bit of trouble and, as companies do these days, it did some creative stuff with its debt: In May 2020, it convinced some of the term-loan lenders to strip collateral from the term loan so it could be used to back new debt. The lenders who were part of this “incredibly aggressive” deal got to roll over into the new, effectively more senior debt; the other lenders were left with worse debt and got mad. Some of them got together to work on a lawsuit, which they filed on Aug. 12.

Twenty hours before they filed the lawsuit, though, they got lucky: Citigroup just wired them all their money. They received wire transfers for the full amount of principal and accrued interest they were owed on the loan. Their first reaction was mostly “well this is weird, I guess Revlon decided to pay off the loan rather than fight about it.” Their second reaction, after Citi sent them frantic notices saying it was a mistake, was to send each other Bloomberg chat messages making fun of Citi. Their third reaction, after some more serious reflection, was to say “we are keeping the money, see you in court.” All of these reactions were pretty reasonable and worked out well for them.

What happened? Well, it starts with the fact that some of the term-loan lenders had agreed to the aggressive deal to put in new money and roll their term loans into new, better-secured debt. 1  So they came to Citi and Revlon, handed in their old debt and got back new debt. When they do this, customarily, they get paid accrued interest on their old debt. Citi, for some reason, couldn’t handle that sensibly; from the opinion:

Quote
Given certain technical limitations of Citibank’s system for making payments, the most efficient way for Citibank to effect the transaction was to pay interim interest accrued to all lenders that held 2020 Extended Term Loans; paying only the rolling-up entities would have required a “very manual process.”

So instead of just paying interim interest to the lenders who were rolling their old loans into new loans, Citi had to pay it to all of the lenders, and Revlon agreed to make an interim interest payment to everyone. 2  So Revlon wired $7.8 million—for an interest payment—to Citi, and Citi got set up to pay it to the lenders: 3

Quote
The August 11th roll-up transaction involved five Lenders, all managed by Angelo, Gordon and Co. (“Angelo Gordon”). The Lenders affiliated with Angelo Gordon were exchanging their positions in the 2016 Term Loan for positions in a different Revlon credit facility. Following this exchange, the remaining Lenders would continue to hold a pro rata share of the 2016 Term Loan on a slightly reduced principal balance. As noted above, when a lender rolls up and exchanges a position in one credit facility for another, it is typically paid the accrued interest on the first facility at the time of the exchange. Due to the same technical limitations of Citibank’s system ... Revlon agreed to pay accrued interest to all 2016 Term Loan Lenders to effect the Angelo Gordon roll-up transaction — even though the other Lenders were not involved in the roll-up transaction and even though an interim interest payment was not due under the Amended Loan Agreement until August 28, 2020.

But the Angelo Gordon funds were getting taken out of the loan entirely and rolled into the new facility, so their principal also had to be paid off. (Not really—they would get cashed out at par and roll their money into the new facility, without taking out actual cash—but as a bookkeeping matter.) Here is a paragraph that I think you can only read with slowly dawning horror:

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Citibank’s Asset-Based Transitional Finance (“ABTF”) team, a subgroup of Citibank’s Loan Operations group that is focused on processing and servicing of asset-based loans, was tasked with executing the roll-up transaction on Flexcube, a software application and loan product processing program that the bank uses for initiating and executing wire payments. On Flexcube, the easiest (or perhaps only) way to execute the transaction — to pay the Angelo Gordon Lenders their share of the principal and interim interest owed as of August 11, 2020, and then to reconstitute the 2016 Term Loan with the remaining Lenders — was to enter it in the system as if paying off the loan in its entirety, thereby triggering accrued interest payments to all Lenders, but to direct the principal portion of the payment to a “wash account” — “an internal Citibank account that shows journal entries . . . used for certain Flexcube transactions to account for internal cashless fund entries and . . . to help ensure that money does not leave the bank.”

Ah ha ha! Yes! The “easiest (or perhaps only)” way to pay off some lenders but not others was to instruct the software to pay off all the lenders! But tell it only to pretend to pay them! Just send that money to a wash account! This is all fine! Let’s read another horrifying paragraph!

Quote
Because the vast majority of wire transactions processed by Citibank using Flexcube involve the payment of funds to third parties, any payment entered into the system is released as a wire payment unless the maker suppresses the default option. Citibank’s internal Fund Sighting Manual provides instructions for suppressing Flexcube’s default. When entering a payment, the employee is presented with a menu with several “boxes” that can be “checked” along with an associated field in which an account number can be input. The Fund Sighting Manual explains that, in order to suppress payment of a principal amount, “ALL of the below field(s) must be set to the wash account: FRONT[;] FUND[; and] PRINCIPAL” — meaning that the employee had to check all three of those boxes and input the wash account number into the relevant fields.

This is just demented stuff. If you want to send out interest payments in cash, but send the principal payment to the wash account, you have to check the box next to “PRINCIPAL” and also the boxes next to “FRONT” and “FUND.” “PRINCIPAL” sounds like principal: You are sending the principal to the wash account, sure, right, yes, check that box. “FRONT” and “FUND” sound like nothing. So the Citi operations people messed it up:

Quote
Notwithstanding these instructions, Ravi, Raj, and Fratta all believed — incorrectly — that the principal could be properly suppressed solely by setting the “PRINCIPAL” field to the wash account. Accordingly, as Ravi built out the transaction between 5:15 and 5:45 p.m. in his role as maker, he checked off only the PRINCIPAL field, neglecting the FRONT and FUND fields. Figure 1, below, “is an accurate image of the Flexcube screen after [Ravi] input the data.”

At 5:45 p.m., Ravi emailed Raj for approval of the transaction, explaining that “Princip[al] to Wash A[ccount] & Interest to DDA A[ccount].” The “DDA Account” referenced the Demand Deposit Account, which is an operational, external-facing account used by Citibank to collect payments from customers and make transfers to lenders. After reviewing the transaction, Raj believed — incorrectly — that the principal would be sent to the wash account and only the interest payments would be sent out to the Lenders. Raj then emailed Fratta, seeking final approval under the six-eye review process, explaining “NOTE: Principal set to Wash and Interest Notice released to Investors.” Fratta, also believing incorrectly that the default instructions were being properly overridden and the principal payment would be directed to the wash account, not to the Lenders, responded to Raj via email, noting, “Looks good, please proceed. Principal is going to wash.”

The software gave him a warning, but not a very good one:

Quote
Raj then proceeded with the final steps to approve the transfers, which prompted a warning on his computer screen — referred to as a “stop sign” — stating: “Account used is Wire Account and Funds will be sent out of the bank. Do you want to continue?” But “[t]he ‘stop sign’ did not indicate the amount that would be ‘sent out of the bank,’ or whether it constituted an amount equal to the intended interest payment, an amount equal to the outstanding principal on the loan, or a total of both.” Because Raj intended to release “the interim interest payment to [the] [L]enders,” he therefore clicked “YES.”

Here’s Figure 1; it does not particularly explain itself:



See, the “don’t actually send the money” box next to “PRINCIPAL” is checked, but that doesn’t do anything, you have to check two other boxes to make it not actually send the money.

When they discovered the error the next day, their first reaction was not to email the lenders asking for the money back (that was their second reaction); their first reaction was to email tech support to say the software was broken:

At 10:26 a.m., Fratta emailed Citibank’s technology support group: “Yesterday we processed a payment with Principal to the wash and Interest to be sent to lenders. All details in the front end screens yesterday le[d] us to believe that the payment would be handled in that manner. . . . Screenshots provided below indicating that the wash account . . . is present and boxes checked appropriately for the principal components.” Fratta then forwarded the same email to members of his team, with the subject line “Urgent Wash Account Does not Work.” He stated: “Flexcube is not working properly, and it will send your payments out the door to lenders/borrowers. The wash account selection is not working. This lead [sic] to ~1BN going out the door in error yesterday for an ABTF Deal, Revlon.” ...

Over the course of the day, Fratta learned that the principal payments — which were made with Citibank’s own money, as Revlon had provided funds only for the interim interest payments to be made in connection with the roll up transaction —were not caused by a technical error, but by human error: the failure to select the FRONT and FUND fields when inputting the default override instructions in Flexcube.

Nope, nope, he was right the first time, this whole setup is a “technical error.” Citi’s software will only let you pay principal to some lenders if you pretend to pay it to every lender, and it will only let you pretend to pay principal to every lender if you check the “just pretend” box next to “PRINCIPAL” (fine!) and “FUND” (what?) and “FRONT” (what even?). What a terrifying thing.

Anyway so, right, clearly it was a mistake, and Citi asked for its money back. It wired about $900 million of mistaken principal payments, and funds that got about $500 million refused to give the money back. “Finders keepers” is not actually a rule of New York law, and in general if you get a mistaken wire transfer you have to give it back. Citi sued, and the funds said, well, we were owed this money, and you sent it to us, so we’re going to keep it. The legal doctrine—the exception to the general rule that you have to give back mistaken wire transfers—is called the “discharge-for-value defense”:

The recipient is allowed to keep the funds if they discharge a valid debt, the recipient made no misrepresentations to induce the payment, and the recipient did not have notice of the mistake. As the New York Court of Appeals explained the exception: “When a beneficiary receives money to which it is entitled and has no knowledge that the money was erroneously wired, the beneficiary should not have to wonder whether it may retain the funds; rather, such a beneficiary should be able to consider the transfer of funds as a final and complete transaction, not subject to revocation.”

The leading case is called Banque Worms, which sounds right. When a bank wires someone money by mistake it can say “ugh we’ve got the banque worms again.”

Honestly it is a very strange doctrine. Here it makes some rough sense because the lenders had a real argument that Revlon had defaulted on the loan (by doing the aggressive collateral-stripping transaction), so it was immediately due and payable, but that’s not actually a requirement of the discharge-for-value defense and isn’t really discussed in the opinion. 4  If everything was fine with the Revlon loan, the lenders had no complaints, and Citi accidentally wired them the money, they’d still get to keep it. 5

Much of the dispute in this case is about whether “the recipient(s) did not have notice of the mistake,” that is, whether the lenders should have known, or did know, that the wire transfers were a mistake when they got them. They argued that they had no idea anything was wrong, that the payments were the exact amounts they were owed, that they assumed Revlon was intentionally paying down its loan to avoid litigation or do some other weird transaction, and that it didn’t cross their mind that Citi had messed up until Citi sent them recall notices the next afternoon.

Once Citi did send the recall notices, of course, the lenders knew it was a mistake, and they all sent each other chat messages making fun of Citi. “Not surprisingly,” writes Judge Furman, “given the nature and size of the mistake, many of these were quite colorful.” He can’t resist quoting some funny ones and neither can I:

DFREY5: I feel really bad for the person that fat fingered a $900mm erroneous payment. Not a great career move

. . . .

JRABINOWIT12: certainly looks like they’ll be looking for new people for their Ops group

DFREY5: How was work today honey? It was ok, except I accidentally sent $900mm out to people who weren’t supposed to have it

DFREY5: Downside of work from home. maybe the dog hit the keyboard

JRABINOWIT12: the song “Had a Bad Day” playing the background

But the judge points out that these chats only happened after the recall notices went out, and “the number and nature of these communications reinforce why the absence of such communications before the Recall Notices is so significant.” That is, if the lenders had thought the payments were a mistake when they got them, they would have been unable to resist hopping into a chat room and cracking jokes about Citi, as proven by the fact that when they got the recall notices they did all crack jokes about Citi. The fact that they didn’t make any jokes for almost a full day proves that, when they got the payments, they thought they were legit.

It is a weird rule that, if you get a payment that you think is legit, and then one minute later you get a notice saying “no sorry this payment was an error,” you nonetheless get to keep the payment, but I guess that’s the rule. Banque Worms!

What a mess. Obviously this is good for the funds who kept the money. It is awkward for the funds who returned the money; they can’t ask Citi to send it back to them. They’re stuck holding the loan until it matures or defaults; Bloomberg tells me that it’s trading at around 42 cents on the dollar. Their clients are going to have questions about their aggressiveness and creativity. Aggressiveness and creativity are kind of the whole ballgame when you are trading distressed debt; the business is about hunting for arcane advantages that you can exploit to get more money than the other guys. In a sense the discharge-for-value exception is an arcane advantage, but in another sense “well they sent us money so we’re going to keep it” is the least arcane imaginable thing, and if you don’t have that instinct perhaps you were meant for a gentler corner of the financial world.

It’s awkward for Citigroup and Revlon too. What do they do? Does Revlon owe Citi the $500 million now? Payable in 2023? I mean, presumably, right? 6  Presumably when Citi accidentally paid off Revlon’s loan, that wasn’t just a gift to Revlon? But neither did it accelerate Revlon’s debt? Citi just bought $500 million worth of the term loan at par and has to wait to get paid back? “‘If appeals fail, Citi will ultimately step into the shoes of the lenders and own $500 million of that nearly $900 million term loan,’ said Philip Brendel, a senior distressed debt analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence.” Can it syndicate whatever this is? Sell some of its weird phantom claims on the term loan to distressed-debt funds? Maybe the same funds that just took it for $500 million? Or I suppose Citi and Revlon could cut a deal where Citi gets paid back X cents on the dollar soon and leads some weird new debt-restructuring transaction for Revlon to fund it. That should be easier now. All the aggressive funds are gone.

When this all happened, there was a certain amount of commentary to the effect of This Proves Citi Is Too Big To Manage and a Threat to Global Financial Stability. That feels a little overblown to me—meh, now Citi owns $500 million of a mispriced loan to Revlon, it’s had bigger problems—but on the other hand, what an absolutely hair-raising description of Citi’s software this is. It is all well and good to say that a bank is “too big to manage,” but what that means in practice is surely something like this. It means you have to check three boxes to not send out money instead of one, and people forget to check two of them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-17/citi-can-t-have-its-900-million-back



....


Know how some critics complain bitcoin accidentally sent to the wrong address is non recoverable?

Citigroup *accidentally* sent $900 million to hedge funds. And was unable to recover $500 million of their accidentally sent transaction.

The case went to court and the judge ruled against citigroup. So hedge funds were allowed to keep the free money.

This illustrates how even banks who send transactions to the wrong recipients aren't necessarily better off than someone making identical errors in crypto.

Perhaps someone can invent a new altcoin which addresses these concerns?   Smiley
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February 18, 2021, 04:00:28 AM
 #2

Why the hell did it have to be "Raj" ticking the boxes?  Cheesy Cheesy

Now 4chan's gonna have a fun day disparaging the Indian "tech support" on Citi team and the, probably outsourced, flexcube software.

Seriously though, this does give a peek into the complexity and outdated-ness of the softwares that run world finance. Its funny how the bloomberg chat ultimately worked to the benefit of Revlon. "No jokes for one whole day". LOL

About Alt-coin coming to the rescue, i do think that pretty complicated lending and borrowing smart-contracts are being developed on Ethereum with the DeFi craze. A lot of them are functioning fine but they get exploited a lot too. The experiments with locking money on blockchain and not with centralized book-keepers is ongoing. Depending on how the regulators act and how the biggies pushback, the future is going to be decided.
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February 18, 2021, 07:03:10 AM
 #3

So,at the end of the day,fiat transactions aren't always reversible,are they? Grin
This is what I call "financial bureaucracy". Grin Many people think that the biggest banks would have the best software and the best employees at their disposal,but the reality is that even the biggest banks want to outsource and try to cut their costs,so their clerks aren't the best and their software is "not-so-good"...
Anyway,that was one horrible wall of text to read. Grin
Maybe we should create some memes about this accident.

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February 18, 2021, 07:25:54 AM
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 #4

Perhaps someone can invent a new altcoin which addresses these concerns?   Smiley

Wouldn't be that the most useless altcoin ever?
Just imagine, I'd send coins to the exchange, withdraw Bitcoin then revert the altcoin transaction. It would allow you get anything for free. Do you expect anyone - from exchanges to merchants - would be stupid enough to accept such a coin?!

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February 18, 2021, 07:40:48 AM
 #5

So are you thinking of an altcoin that could automatically bring your funds back? I was thinking that it's enough to just freeze the coins so they would be rendered unusable. Do you think that would be useful already? Some CBDC coins like USDC, IIRC, can freeze the coins or something. I'm not really sure if it's effective in this type of use case though.

That's definitely a big mess for Citi and those responsible would be dealt with for sure.

Do you think some funds were withdrawn and put into BTC? For prevention of tracking or something?  Huh

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February 18, 2021, 07:50:21 AM
 #6

Know how some critics complain bitcoin accidentally sent to the wrong address is non recoverable?

Citigroup *accidentally* sent $900 million to hedge funds. And was unable to recover $500 million of their accidentally sent transaction.
The case went to court and the judge ruled against citigroup. So hedge funds were allowed to keep the free money.

What free money?
It is clearly said in the statement by the court:

Quote
When a beneficiary receives money to which it is entitled and has no knowledge that the money was erroneously wired, the beneficiary should not have to wonder whether it may retain the funds; rather, such a beneficiary should be able to consider the transfer of funds as a final and complete transaction, not subject to revocation.”

Those are money that Citi was supposed to pay anyway, not money they decided its fun to try and sent to different accounts.

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February 18, 2021, 07:52:16 AM
 #7

Perhaps someone can invent a new altcoin which addresses these concerns?   Smiley

Wouldn't be that the most useless altcoin ever?
Just imagine, I'd send coins to the exchange, withdraw Bitcoin then revert the altcoin transaction. It would allow you get anything for free. Do you expect anyone - from exchanges to merchants - would be stupid enough to accept such a coin?!
It already exists, it's called Ethereum. I prefer to call it SCTN though, Smart Contract Testnet. If you don't like the result of your smart contracts just request a bailout.

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February 18, 2021, 10:45:33 AM
 #8

The money was owed to the recipients and that is the reason why they don't need to pay it back. It's not like they got some handout from Citi. Perhaps that is the reason why the courts also ruled that the money doesn't need to be wired back. In the end, it is Citi's fault that they can't find literate people to handle such a huge amount. In most of the corporations, if you need to move a small fraction of that amount, you need to go through multiple levels of authorization and verifications. If Citi doesn't have such a system, then it is their fault.
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February 18, 2021, 01:08:37 PM
 #9

Citi doesn't have a claim on that one because they are about to give that money to the same recipients anyway. If anything, they can sue the people that did the transfer from their ranks for mishandling funds. Other than that there's really no chasing about that money. If some of those money ended up in parties that weren't even concerned with the said agreement, that's lucky for them considering that they received basically free money from the errors of a software and the team who operated it at Citi.

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February 18, 2021, 01:38:20 PM
 #10

The Citigroup Guys must be on weed that day. Unbelievable, how could they possibly make a mistake of sending 900 million. That’s a shit thing man. A banker like that might have been fired by now. Lolz.

Well, if we bring up idea like lending protection through altcoin then it wouldn’t be that popular as you may think. It’s basically securing your data permanently over blockchain and showing the proof of transaction or amount or other details. But it doesn’t mean we will have securities against loan process.

Accidentally sent money is simply human error or in rarest case technological mistake. You can’t do anything for these errors. You can just improve them.

Making a whole dam tech stuff for avoiding such complications would bring more complications.  Tongue

(Also, is that Citigroup team fired yet ? )  Grin
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February 18, 2021, 01:48:40 PM
 #11

The Citigroup Guys must be on weed that day. Unbelievable, how could they possibly make a mistake of sending 900 million. That’s a shit thing man. A banker like that might have been fired by now. Lolz.

Well, if we bring up idea like lending protection through altcoin then it wouldn’t be that popular as you may think. It’s basically securing your data permanently over blockchain and showing the proof of transaction or amount or other details. But it doesn’t mean we will have securities against loan process.

Accidentally sent money is simply human error or in rarest case technological mistake. You can’t do anything for these errors. You can just improve them.

Making a whole dam tech stuff for avoiding such complications would bring more complications.  Tongue
Whatever they are smoking that day, I want one  Grin. The problem with this is both human and technical incompetence, if they were hiring people that are competent then this kinds of error wouldn't have been overlooked and in the technical side, if they don't want this kind of error then they should've created a far superior system to cover the possibility of technical errors. It is not the technology that is complicated, it is the people that are using it, they want to make more money so they make the process more complicated.

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February 19, 2021, 05:47:54 AM
 #12

See, this is why we need the banking system to be run on Ethereum. It is crazy that the banks, out of all organizations, are using payment mechanisms without built-in bailout capabilities.

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February 19, 2021, 07:09:28 AM
 #13

Flexcube is a very outdated software, it goes way back to the 90s and is prone to many tech errors plus it crashes very often. (I had some experience using it) This is why there is a maker-checker system in order to mitigate human errors however this is sometimes not enough, as proven in this unfortunate event. I understand why they first attempted to address the situation to tech support, during my time using it we had to consult with tech about three times in a week. And the thing about using flexcube is there is no fallback or safety system once the action has been done. A similar situation happened in the past where "primary" was ticked instead of only "settlement" and just like that, all of the money got out. The money was returned though but the fault was on the operations team who erroneously ticked the wrong boxes. Its kind of scary to think how ticking of wrong boxes could lead to lost of millions and even with checkers and quality team looking out. You would think Citi should at least opt for a new system considering how outdated Flexcube already is and it potentially would cost them millions on human error for simple things like ticking the wrong boxes.
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February 19, 2021, 09:02:07 AM
 #14

Seriously though, this does give a peek into the complexity and outdated-ness of the softwares that run world finance. Its funny how the bloomberg chat ultimately worked to the benefit of Revlon. "No jokes for one whole day". LOL
That really depends, if the company is a private one, I think that it will be up to date but if it is in any way connected to government, it will have a problem being up to date. But you are right, their system is old, it's just packaged differently so people think that they are getting something new when it was the same thing. It was Citi's error if I may be honest, they did initiate the transaction and there should be some steps before they could send that amount of money to somewhere, Citi has to face the music even if it is not sang for them.

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February 19, 2021, 11:59:01 AM
 #15

So,at the end of the day,fiat transactions aren't always reversible,are they? Grin
This is what I call "financial bureaucracy". Grin Many people think that the biggest banks would have the best software and the best employees at their disposal,but the reality is that even the biggest banks want to outsource and try to cut their costs,so their clerks aren't the best and their software is "not-so-good"...
Anyway,that was one horrible wall of text to read. Grin
Maybe we should create some memes about this accident.
Sort of? I mean you could always have charge backs and so forth in fiat money, you could buy something with credit card and then do a charge back, that has been a problem for many shop owners for years and years, specially with paypal who took out even double sometimes, so you sell something for 100 dollars, which costs you 50 bucks, and you think you made a profit of 50 dollars right? Buyer makes a chargeback, so paypal withdraws that 100 bucks from you and 100 bucks for blockage and now you are down 250 bucks for something you sold to someone.

Basically this is a HUGE deal and that is why it was different, nobody could say that citi was wrong here, they did a mistake and that is true but just because they did a mistake doesn't mean that they should be out 400 million dollars from this, they should have gotten their money back, it is an insane case and not something common in fiat world.

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February 19, 2021, 01:43:21 PM
 #16

I mean you could always have charge backs and so forth in fiat money, you could buy something with credit card and then do a charge back, that has been a problem for many shop owners for years and years,

And with cryptos, there will be a problem for consumers for years to come.
Look at the hundreds if not thousands of shops claiming to sell mining gear right now only for crypto, what can all those do? Nothing!
No chargebacks are good for sellers, chargebacks are good for buyers, there is simply no way payment method that will make both of them happy.

Let's be honest about it, if you come across a new website with a great deal and you have two options CC or BTC I'm willing to bet even if from the users on this forum 95% will choose a credit or debit card.

so you sell something for 100 dollars, which costs you 50 bucks, and you think you made a profit of 50 dollars right? Buyer makes a chargeback, so paypal withdraws that 100 bucks from you and 100 bucks for blockage and now you are down 250 bucks for something you sold to someone.

You sold something for 100$ that cost you 50$. You're on profit $50!
Paypal comes with a chargeback and hits you with a 200$ fee, you're down to $150, not $250.

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February 19, 2021, 02:00:16 PM
 #17

     The lesson here is that nothing is safe from error. Errors or mistakes are bound to happen to anyone. Even the highest standards aren't full proof. Too bad for those that make mistakes like this. Specially in this place. Only thing left to do is beg for it or cry over it and move on. A person would have to be in such a hurry or too tired/stressed to make an error such as this one. I wonder if the case would still be the same if the amount was way bigger and the people involved are very rich personalities.

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February 19, 2021, 04:17:29 PM
 #18

Seriously though, this does give a peek into the complexity and outdated-ness of the softwares that run world finance. Its funny how the bloomberg chat ultimately worked to the benefit of Revlon. "No jokes for one whole day". LOL
That really depends, if the company is a private one, I think that it will be up to date but if it is in any way connected to government, it will have a problem being up to date. But you are right, their system is old, it's just packaged differently so people think that they are getting something new when it was the same thing. It was Citi's error if I may be honest, they did initiate the transaction and there should be some steps before they could send that amount of money to somewhere, Citi has to face the music even if it is not sang for them.
It is not easy to make a software in a highly sensitive world as well, we should remember that. Think about the "charts" and exchanges you see, they are rarely any different, we are looking at swaps right now and how they are so different, so simple, so elegant, sure they do not have the details of exchanges but it shows how simple things could be when you want to exchange one coin to another, whereas exchanges are all looking same, the buys and sells and market or limit and many other things, put all exchanges side by side and you will not see too much difference.

If you think something like that exists in crypto with exchanges that are 2-3 year old at most, think about how hard it is to change trillion dollar investment companies software systems to something better. Which is why it is obvious that we should probably not really see them as "old and failed" systems but more like "difficult to replace" systems.

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February 19, 2021, 04:20:23 PM
 #19

See, this is why we need the banking system to be run on Ethereum. It is crazy that the banks, out of all organizations, are using payment mechanisms without built-in bailout capabilities.
Ethereum can never be good for that.
This is a simple IT management problem as the banking IT infrastructure is a dinosaur that needs to be rebuilt from the ground.
bits4books
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February 20, 2021, 09:10:44 AM
 #20

If your pencil does not write well - do you buy a new one or sharpen your own / insert a new rod?

The problem with Citibank is that their program had the most disgusting interface, which is also very easy to mistake. The main problem is not that Citibank made a mistake and now can not return the money, but that Citibank MADE a MISTAKE BECAUSE OF the SHITTY DESIGN OF ITS OWN SOFTWARE and this must be understood.

Inventing another useless altcoin in order to fix this is shooting a cannon at sparrows. It is enough to bring a normal approach to the design of internal software so that such mistakes do not happen again.
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