Antiwork: It takes a lot of work to create no work.

[coolcoinz]

Minimum Wage is needed to be increased, but I don't see any necessary measurements needed to diminish the old system of 40 hrs a week, cause there are still works that doesn't need you to work 40 hrs a week. But if you want that work, you must work a lot bigger that 40 hrs to make it happened, and that is the reality.

You hate work, but you love money, and for you to have both, you need to compromise one way or another.

No, minimum wage should be abolished. The market should decide what a person with a certain set of skills should be paid. Minimum wage manipulations lead to an unnecessary struggle between a demanding public and politicians, which doesn't make sense since neither the public nor the politicians should decide on what an employer should pay his employee. It should be 100% up to the employer.
Increasing minimum wages leads to populism, buying votes with promises of higher wages that never work.
What most employers do when they have to increase minimum wages because the government said so? They let some people go and divide their wages between the rest.

[franky1]

No, minimum wage should be abolished. The market should decide what a person with a certain set of skills should be paid.

the market can and does decide what a person with a certain skillset should be paid
the min wage barrier is just that.. a MINIMUM wage barrier. so that businesses cant be too abusive and pay people too little

a better solution is if the job application just wants someone with no skills, no talent and just someone who can turn up and do untalented work gets min wage. but any stipulation of qualification requirements or previous experience should be above min wage. getting higher based on how much requirements are needed,

the issue is not min wage being a barrier to 'market decisions' its the fact that the market wants to pay people min wage even while also requiring people of a certain standard above minimum

EG if college debt is meant to be paid off in 10 years. and a business needs someone with 2 years college. then that 2x$10k college qualification cost. would equate to $2k a year in income requirement to pay it off. and so the business should offer a job role requiring 2 year college at $2k a year higher salary above a job that doesnt require the college experience/qualification

its not rocket science

[BADecker]

^^^ Of course the market decides. And if you need a higher wage, just cry. Because if you strike, we'll shut down and open up under a new name somewhere else. Or we'll simply hire some homeless people who are ready to work for what we want to pay.

The market decides, right?

[gredinger]

Minimum Wage is needed to be increased, but I don't see any necessary measurements needed to diminish the old system of 40 hrs a week, cause there are still works that doesn't need you to work 40 hrs a week. But if you want that work, you must work a lot bigger that 40 hrs to make it happened, and that is the reality.

You hate work, but you love money, and for you to have both, you need to compromise one way or another.

Well, no. I don't love money explicitly. I enjoy the comforts of life that money buys -- like food, water, shelter, heating, clothing, etc.

No, minimum wage should be abolished. The market should decide what a person with a certain set of skills should be paid. Minimum wage manipulations lead to an unnecessary struggle between a demanding public and politicians, which doesn't make sense since neither the public nor the politicians should decide on what an employer should pay his employee. It should be 100% up to the employer.
Increasing minimum wages leads to populism, buying votes with promises of higher wages that never work.
What most employers do when they have to increase minimum wages because the government said so? They let some people go and divide their wages between the rest.

Let me take your statement and change it to another "law".

No, murder and homicide laws should be abolished. A serial killer should decide when a person should live or die. State sponsored murder has leader to international geopolitical issues which causes a struggle between demanding public and the politicians, which doesn't make sense because neither the public nor the politicians should decide who to legally murder. It should be 100% up to the individual serial kill.

Enabling state sanction murders leads to populism, military occupations, and promises of peace and security that never work.

What most serial killers do when they have to increase their quota of murders to keep up with state sanction murders? They have to get to work.

[franky1]

No, murder and homicide laws should be abolished. A serial killer should decide when a person should live or die.

and on that note this guy is nuts...
.. im out

[Pancho95]

On the other hand in Switzerland the government offered to their people to not work and get like 2k francs monthly and they refused it as they like going to work. 

[franky1]

the issue with government subsidised pay is this.

say you earn $300 a week for 40 hours at $7.50 and a government scheme is invented where they will subsidise your pay $1:$1 if your hours went down.
you take the offer and work 30 hours and get paid $225 from work and $75 from UBI
meaning you still get $300

however if your boss asks you to work over time. your physical labour is then not compensated.
your in a life style of 30hours for $300 now. but if you work an extra 5 hours. your boss pays you $37.50 but your UBI goes down by $37.50.so you ended up working an extra 5 hours. plus the extra cost of travel to work/laundry for work. but you have not earned an extra penny for them 5 hours.

UBI does not help people. it helps businesses reduce its labour costs

in the UK there is a social benefit scheme where the very day you get a job your benefits stop meaning you have to find money to cover all your costs of getting to work and stretch it until your work finally puts you on their pay roll and pays your wage.
they have another benefit for those that are disabled. where their benefit decreases by 0.60 for every 1. meaning if you work 10 hours at 7.5. your benefit decreases so that you are only 45 better off not 75 better off
where this extra 45 is then taken into consideration to deduct other schemes like local government(council) tax discounts due to increased earnings.
yep earning another 45 then become 36 due to paying more council tax
you also have to pay national insurance
then there is the cost of getting to work which can be 5 a day. so a 2 day shift of 5 hours each is 10. meaning its now 26 extra.

would you go to work for 10 hours and after all bills and taxes and expenses related to that work increase. only to have 26 extra to your name

so how about if the ubi was 1:1 and you get nothing extra. but then end up spending more just to work overtime


this makes people not want to find jobs for:
<16 hours (cost-profit balance makes them only truly better off at about 17hours+ if in uk disability .60:1)
or never profitable for any hours in a 1:1 ubi(work 0 hours=$300 work 40 hours=$300)

[Natsuu]

Minimum Wage is needed to be increased, but I don't see any necessary measurements needed to diminish the old system of 40 hrs a week, cause there are still works that doesn't need you to work 40 hrs a week. But if you want that work, you must work a lot bigger that 40 hrs to make it happened, and that is the reality.

You hate work, but you love money, and for you to have both, you need to compromise one way or another.

Well, no. I don't love money explicitly. I enjoy the comforts of life that money buys -- like food, water, shelter, heating, clothing, etc.

You don't love it "EXPLICITELY", but you still love it as you love the benefits of having money. You are just trying to dig yourself out by saying you don't but you DO.

[tvbcof]

Not needing to work for real money is itself a lot of work for people who find themselves in such a situation because usually they got to where they are by being habitual workers.

For most people I would suggest to take a cue from franky1.  Just live in a welfare state where society will give you enough of a life to spend all day in your hovel feverishly typing on your cell phone.  Until the Grim Vaxxer come knocking at least.

[franky1]

Not needing to work for real money is itself a lot of work for people who find themselves in such a situation because usually they got to where they are by being habitual workers.

For most people I would suggest to take a cue from franky1.  Just live in a welfare state where society will give you enough of a life to spend all day in your hovel feverishly typing on your cell phone.  Until the Grim Vaxxer come knocking at least.

funny part is i dont claim any welfare.
there is this thing. called bitcoin(maybe you heard of it. but seeing as you want to support the FIAT currency seems not). and if you have enough of it. you dont have to work. you can afford to travel and get to see the world. yep i am supported by bitcoin not welfare
maybe you should try it.

that said when it comes to taxes. that money should be used to help those in need.
if your against taxes going to people in need. im guessing you prefer taxes going to corporations that want.

thats the issue with capitalist countries. they cry that businesses should be unregulated and businesses should be supported by government.. then they cry that businesses are unregulated and businesses are supported by government.

you can spot the idiot flip flop capitalists that have no clue because they are usually fed their narrative from conspiracy sites promoting to be anti-gov anti-pharma. whilst secretly telling people to stop funding citizens needs and start buying pharma supplements

you know. when millions can die of things. they dont want people having healthcare or cures. they just want to see poor people die so that they can pretend to be the exception.... and then cry when its their il health at risk that there is no healthcare/support for them..

...pfft.. capitalism only works for those at the top of the pyramid

[tvbcof]

...
For most people I would suggest to take a cue from franky1.  Just live in a welfare state where society will give you enough of a life to spend all day in your hovel feverishly typing on your cell phone.  Until the Grim Vaxxer come knocking at least.

funny part is i dont claim any welfare.
...
...pfft.. capitalism only works for those at the top of the pyramid

If it looks like a welfare queen and quacks like a welfare queen...

[eddie13]

I don’t think governments should set anything..
No minimum wage and no overtime laws..


Did YOU not negotiate your pay where you work? Would you have taken your job at minimum wage?

I’d lmao at an interviewer trying to offer me minimum wage..

That’s the problem.. NPCs just take the first job offer they get at whatever it pays, and then don’t keep job shopping..
The promise of tiny raises keep them..

I don’t feel lucky to have a job.. I feel the company I work for is lucky that I applied and accepted the wage we negotiated on..
And if they screw me around, I’ll quit at the drop of a hat.. I don’t really care..

They are now wanting to promote me/increase my scope of work duties..
I won’t do it unless they pay me more.. I’ll just say no.. Simple as that..
It’ll probably be another “minimum wage” on top of what I already make..


I can make more and spend less that I would if I was working minimum wage basically just dicking around on my own..

Most people don’t even consider what it costs them TO work..
Drive back and forth every day, maintain car for all that driving, gas, eating out, gear/clothes/attire/PPE..


Like this girl I talked to just now “I made $90 a day in a few hours” she says..
I say “no you don’t, lol”, “how much does it cost you to go do that?”
She makes like $50 a day after considering expenses..


I just quoted a job for her landlord (side job).. She thought I was crazy to quote more than double the cost of materials..
I’m like.. “I’m not even going to THINK about this job for free.. I’m charging time for just for figuring out what to charge.. If they don’t like it they can just say no..”

Property owner didn’t even negotiate.. “yeah, buy all new stuff and do it”

Am I lucky for getting the work? Or are they lucky for getting me to do the work?
Probably them.. I’ll charge them more next time, lol.. Maybe enough to try to get them to start negotiating atleast..

Bid it at about 4X min wage.. Might try something like 6X min wage with them next time..


Anti work?
I can work like 1 week a month and be fine..
Charge more..

How anyone takes a minimum wage job boggles my mind..


I just bid a $12,000 side job the other day.. I didn’t do it because it was a now or never type thing and they had to wait a month.. Told em “OK never mind then”..
Might do it for a couple thousand $ because it’ll cost me more to do it on their schedule than on mine..
Probably won’t even bother..

[franky1]

seems eddie is a self employed skilled contractor able to negociate and choose his jobs.
maybe he does realise(but does not consider) there are some folk like tvbcof that are not skilled and need to work as an employee for companies to avoid sounding like a welfare duck

i dont need to work nor claim welfare. but i atleast do consider there are people like tvbcof that fear the need of the welfare duck.

anyways..
yes when you call a plumber out, the expectation is that their hourly rate for a call out is 6x-12x min wage depending on job as the hourly rate. because trying to find a skilled plumber thats not already busy on other jobs is a thing. the emergency need to stop a leak causes a good premium

but 'employment' if unskilled is usually minimum wage. where there are say a hundred applicants just wanting to avoid the duck quacks of welfare.

think about it if welfare was equivalent to say $5.30 an hour(google: us missisipi). people would take $7.50 and the only negotiation becomes the number of hours needed
without a minimum wage employers would start at $5.30. because they know a couple people out of hundreds of applicants would still work for $5.30 just to avoid the welfare duck quack stigma that tvbcof suffers from/fears.

no minimum wage would cause a pay decrease in job applications where its equal/only marginally better than welfare

meaning even if there are 98 other applicants that wanna 'freemaket' negotiate their pay.. they aint gonna get the job as the 2 that would accept $5.30 got the job. and thats one of the many reasons minimum wage was put in. so employers cant low-ball applicants

eddie did raise just one good point about someones wage is not their final income. because when you take into considerations that an 9 hour paid job is actually more like 10hours work related activity(travel and uniform laundry and lunch prep' aswell as the costs of travel and laundry and lunch makes a $90 for 9 hours actually become a ~$80 for 10 hours(then tax/insurance deductions to be even less)

so imagine that if the pay was $5.30/h. the end result is not $47.70 for 9 hours.. but $37.30 for 10 hours
making employment worse than welfare quacking unless you negotiate alot of hours

this is why the government have the 3 budgets of
welfare, survival(min), living wage
~$5.30    $7.50              $15
because they know that without min wage, employers would still take people on at welfare budgets

and if you think people wont take that low pay.
well it looks like that other states get something like $378 a week welfare($9.45 an hour equivelent) but still decide to work for only $7.50.. or enen lower at under $5+tips just to avoid the welfare duck stigma

[eddie13]

Could get right rid of welfare too..

If you couldn’t hack it in the USA you could skirt your ass right back to where you came from, or learn some skills..

How is it possible that a person never learns any skills to improve their value?
Probably minimum wage and welfare.. Removing the need..

Right now I work for a company, but still do side jobs..
Usually I just live on side jobs, because low wages are a joke..

[Mauser]

Could get right rid of welfare too..

If you couldn’t hack it in the USA you could skirt your ass right back to where you came from, or learn some skills..

How is it possible that a person never learns any skills to improve their value?
Probably minimum wage and welfare.. Removing the need..

Right now I work for a company, but still do side jobs..
Usually I just live on side jobs, because low wages are a joke..

While for many people side jobs are very important we shouldn't forget that how it was 50 years ago. People had one non their whoe life's, there was no need to switch work or you had to be afraid that machines would take over. But now with technology advancements more and more jobs are not needed anymore. Eventually the workforce will getting smaller and smaller while the population is growing.

[eddie13]

Could get right rid of welfare too..

If you couldn’t hack it in the USA you could skirt your ass right back to where you came from, or learn some skills..

How is it possible that a person never learns any skills to improve their value?
Probably minimum wage and welfare.. Removing the need..

Right now I work for a company, but still do side jobs..
Usually I just live on side jobs, because low wages are a joke..

While for many people side jobs are very important we shouldn't forget that how it was 50 years ago. People had one non their whoe life's, there was no need to switch work or you had to be afraid that machines would take over. But now with technology advancements more and more jobs are not needed anymore. Eventually the workforce will getting smaller and smaller while the population is growing.

The amount of people that can’t tell their ass from a hole in the ground unless a computer tells them so is getting smaller and smaller..

People that can actually do real work, actually figure things out on their own, use logic, understand even simple machines and structures, are getting more and more rare, and in many cases more valuable..

If anything bad happens in the world, the guy that can keep your car running, keep farming equipment running, keep the fuel flowing, and keep your house standing, are going to be the most valuable..

We don’t even need most “engineers”, much less data entry specialists..

You know what else it makes for?
People who are self sufficient and can take care of themselves..

One person might need to “work” 10 hours behind a computer in order to pay to have his car worked on, his house worked on, something installed, etc..
A person who can do these things doesn’t need to trade his labor for the labor of others..

Do you realize at all how much less you have to spend when you can take care of yourself?
You don’t need a lot of money if you don’t have to spend a lot of money..

If you can buy a badass $5,000 car with cash and take care of it yourself, you don’t need to buy a $30,000 lame grocery getter that you are going to lose $20,000 on plus maintenance..

Dude pulls up next to me jealous of my ride, wishing he was driving what I’m driving, while he has lost $20k+ on his car, and mine hasn’t lost a dime..
Why? Because he thought he was “playing it safe” and really had no idea about anything..

Yeah it’s “safe”.. Safe to assume your going to lose $20k but someone else will make sure your car isn’t going to break down..

What’s the value potential on buying a new F-150 right now and keep it like 5-7 years?
Even a truck, you are going to lose so much money in that time it’s insane..



You also realize that you have to pay taxes on your income, and then the guy you paid to do stuff has to pay income taxes on that!!
You are losing about 40% of your value right there!!

Imagine building out a property..
Clearing the land, making a driveway, building a house, installing your septic, (drilling water well excluded in most places)..

You paid taxes on all your income to pay to get all that stuff done and the guy doing them had to pay taxes on what you gave him..
If you do these things yourself you are instantly up like 40% because you aren’t taxed to pay yourself or taxed to get paid to do it..

“Building a house costs $100,000” for example..
No, not really..
It cost you $120,000 to pay $100,000 because you got taxed 20%, and the guy you give the $100,000 to really only gets $80,000 because he got taxed 20%..

So your really doing $120,000 worth of work in exchange for $80,000 worth of work..
DIY and you just instantly saved $40,000 just in taxes..


“But not everyone knows how to build a house” you might say..
Well look it up on the internet and learn, if you can’t do that, if you don’t have enough brain power to figure out how to read a tape measure and put some sticks together, then you probably deserve to work for minimum wage or less.. Sucks to be you..

Same as if you can’t figure out how to do basic maintenance on your own vehicle..
I surely hope your only too lazy, or I pity your intelligence level..

Or in the case you are one of those lucky folks who make a rediculous amount of money that you probably don’t deserve, then yeah whatever go pay someone else and all those taxes..

If you can make $300 an hour, then go ahead and pay $120 an hour to get your car worked on..
Congratulations.. 

[Mauser]

The key to get rid of work is automation. Once we reach full automation with no human input anymore the workers don't need to work anymore. It all depends on the robots. The initial cost of creating such factories and offices is quite high but once done so there can be a lot of money being saved. I think we will need less and less people to work in the future.

[franky1]

the UK just opened its first amazon grocery store, no cashier staff.
other retailers are beginning to see that amazon is going to be a rival. able to offer products cheaper not only just due to low labour but because of their automated fulfilment warehouses
yes amazon is slowly replacing warehouse labour with robot 'pickers'

and in the next decade other grocery chains will have to do the same to remain competitive

imagine it. a future where a store is like a large vending machine. no staff. just select your products let a machine provide it and pay.

the UK's main employers is retail with 15% in the retail industry.
this can easily be cut in half in the next decade

the next 2 categories are:
health and social work: 13%
admin/customer support: 9%

i can see health and social work increasing
i can see admin/support decreasing(UK call centres replaced by foreign callers or FAQ sites)

[DaveF]

For an interesting look at automation changing / removing jobs take a look at this video from Richard Hammonds Big:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdzu63HRrO0&ab_channel=EpicConstruction
Entire shipping ports are being run by a handful of people when it used to be in the 100s and 100s of people.

Due to better tools in general, there are a lot of jobs that although they still need skilled workers they need a lot less of them
How many things used to have to be milled by hand 30+ years ago that I can now just drop into a CNC machine, push a button and get it done.

-Dave

[franky1]

How many things used to have to be milled by hand 30+ years ago that I can now just drop into a CNC machine, push a button and get it done.

imagine there were 1million plates needing to be milled in a week
hand milled used to be a 2man team per plate. doing 3 plates an hour
so 2 men can do 24 plates in their 8 hour shift.
3 rotating shift is 72 plates a day 504 a week for 6 people(multiply by 2000)
it would require 12000 workers working side by side on

early automation made a machine able to to it in 6 minutes meaning 1680 can be milled a week per machine
and needing ~600 machines. where each machine needed to be monitored by a man in a 3 shift
it would require 1800 workers watching the machines. pressing the button..
(12000->1800)

then more efficienct machines can do it in 3 minutes. so that halves the machines and workers
(1800->900)
now it doesnt even require someone at the button 24/7 (3 shifts a day of 3 workers per machine)
now it can be one person logging into a computer once a week and setting the new template design. and have 300 machines operating 24/7 unmonitored
(900->1)

all thats needed now is 1 operator. 1 repair man and 1 truck driver. everything from loading the material to the machines to loading the end product onto a truck is automated
(12000->3)