Block chain "cleanliness" analytics

[xz0708]

if you buy btc from another hodlr (forum, meetup, ect) how do you check if coins are clean enough to send to an exchange ?  How to prevent buying coins that can not be used ?  Is there an oracle website bitcoiners can use to "check coins".  Whats is the correct process...does seller provide wallet address coins will come from so it can be checked before transaction ?

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[Jawhead999]

What you do mean about "clean" ? Are you worried with money laundring or it comes from gambling site? You can use a Bitcoin mixer or Coinjoin features, so you'll get a fresh new coin "trails" and no one can know it for your privacy.

When you want to buy a coins, you'd need a address for seller transfer his coins to you. After he already transfered, you can track the transaction in (e.g. blockchair or blockchain) with the transaction hash. If he transfer to correct address with correct coins, you'll see an amount show up in your wallet.

[odolvlobo]

if you buy btc from another hodlr (forum, meetup, ect) how do you check if coins are clean enough to send to an exchange ?  How to prevent buying coins that can not be used ?  Is there an oracle website bitcoiners can use to "check coins".  Whats is the correct process...does seller provide wallet address coins will come from so it can be checked before transaction ?

It would be nice if chain analytics companies provided this service for free, since they already have the information. But they make a lot of money selling it, so I don't think they are likely to give it away.

[xz0708]

@Jawhead999  i mean a real p2p transaction where we exchange fiat for btc there is no middle man like localbitcoins or hodlhodl to prevent tainted coins from being exchanged......



do peer to peer exchanges check for tainted coins?  thinking yes since they take some of the coins as payment for providing trusted market place.........??

[bL4nkcode]

do peer to peer exchanges check for tainted coins?  thinking yes since they take some of the coins as payment for providing trusted market place.........??

For KYC'ed exchanges with P2P, probably yes, such binance and idk if LBC do. But those decentralized won't ofc.

For your question, it will be possible if the seller will give you details where the funds came from such the wallet address(es) so you can check it by some chain analytics but don't expect its free as I know most services like this are paid.

[cabron]

Must be worried whether the bought coins will be held by the exchange not allowing him to be traded on exchanges for reason that it could be coming from a previous hack. Exchanges can freeze the tokens for good, it's an issue of fungibility. You will only experience this by the example OP gave but if the coin comes from somewhere like an online platform then its safe. There is no way to prevent it unless you make a transaction to reputable platforms only.

[Darker45]

do peer to peer exchanges check for tainted coins?  thinking yes since they take some of the coins as payment for providing trusted market place.........??

I don't think they do, and they care.

On the other hand, and slightly off topic, I don't understand why Bitcoin will have to be subjected to this so stringent a standard. I mean, we are talking of money here and money is expected to be circulating. In the case of Bitcoin, it circulates all around the world since it is a global currency. That's a lot more circulation than hard cash, especially because it is a lot more limited. So if we make it a policy to treat tainted Bitcoin as dirty and less valuable than immaculate ones, we will certainly end up with nothing clean.

I surmise this kind of standard or consciousness is originally coming from or caused by criticisms which labeled Bitcoin as an underground or even criminal's money. Well, money is meant to be dirty. I don't understand why critics are bringing this up when 92% of USD bills are positive of cocaine. And that's cocaine alone. It doesn't even account prostitution, bribery, pedophilia, laundering, meth, robbery, and many others.

[meanwords]

I don't know if you can do that but I do know that you can check a wallet if it's from a criminal or no.

I think you can use https://scam-alert.io/ to do this. Though you can't directly check the coin, you can at least check the wallet where that coin came from and the other wallets history of that wallet. Although it'll be tedious but at least it's something

[ranochigo]

Bitcoin is fungible. Taint is just a metric invented by governments or companies to try to seize your funds under the guise that it is used for illicit activities. Having a tainted coin should not diminish the value in any way. Most exchange and services only restrict accounts if they see evidences of the coins being sent directly through a casino or any other services that is prohibited within their jurisdiction.

Since there is no metrics to determine whether a coin is tainted, there really isn't a surefire way to determine a level of taint that is universally recognized. Every coin is tainted at some point in their history as it gets mixed around, unless it is a newly generated one which really means there is no point in trying to find one that isn't.

[crwth]

It's one thing to think that you are getting clean Bitcoins, but that wouldn't be a big deal if you are getting it legally. So if you are buying from a person that could have those dirty BTC, you wouldn't know right away unless he shows you where it's being held. I don't know if it will help but passing it to a couple of addresses first could mitigate it, right? Because it can be dirty, but that doesn't mean it would be used illegally.

[xz0708]

@odolvlobo  - your right it is sad analytics companies only want to make $$ getting people in trouble, not help people stay safe.

@cabron  - just thinking about purchasing from p2p dex or maybe from this forum .  If i buy from a user here and use escrow i could find myself not able to move coins to exchange so avoiding kyc is worthless

@meanwords - thanks , thats a useful link to check for scams.  wish i could find something like exchanges use to judge coins you deposit.    

@Darker45  - totally agree - we should not encourage separation of clean v. tainted coins.  no one at grocery cares if cash is tainted same should apply to btc.   Miners dump to otc @ "clean" coin premium,  make more $$.  
It is an excuse for exchanges to confiscate coins, they maybe report 10% tainted coins then mix the rest themselves and profit.  Governments love it because it teaches how to confiscate btc "LEGALLY" while btc is busy building the crypto hiway for central bank digital currencies...HEHE  (I just want a similar tool so hodlrs can start to practice as well)


does anyone know if coinjoin , wasabi, whirpool technology prevent tainted coins from entering mix pool?  

  

[xz0708]

@ranochigo -  thanks friend....that was the breakdown i needed right now.  See my reply to Darker45 - similar thinking - governments...

[ranochigo]

does anyone know if coinjoin , wasabi, whirpool technology prevent tainted coins from entering mix pool?  

Most services actually prohibit CoinJoin transactions as they're pretty easy to detect, whether it's tainted or not. As said before, unless you're able to pay some Bitcoins to a miner for newly mined coins, there probably isn't a way around it to get 100% untainted coins.

[xz0708]

does anyone know if coinjoin , wasabi, whirpool technology prevent tainted coins from entering mix pool?  

Most services actually prohibit CoinJoin transactions as they're pretty easy to detect, whether it's tainted or not. As said before, unless you're able to pay some Bitcoins to a miner for newly mined coins, there probably isn't a way around it to get 100% untainted coins.

Think i heard that before some where, so you are confirming for me - useful and appreciated.  Long time - self mixing may be the best.....thanks again

[20kevin20]

Coins that have a recent (5-10 txs behind) CoinJoin history are quite easy to be detected. You just look into its history and if there is any CoinJoin transaction, then they will probably confiscate your coins. CoinJoins have lots of inputs and the majority of outputs have the same amount sent (and if it's done through Wasabi, the amount will be around 0.1). 

For example, you can see this transaction. There are many different inputs, but almost all outputs have a value of exactly 0.10370144 BTC.

Mixers I believe are harder to be detected, so the best thing you can do is bouncing the BTC from address to address for a few days at a random time of the day so that whatever "taint" there is, it'll be pushed back depeer into the history.

This "tainted" term is fishy and pretty deceivable. It's used by governments to install their rules and weapons for control.

Usually, if you purchase from an exchange using KYC then your coins are considered clean automatically. They know your identity now, so they don't give a damn where your coins came from no more. But if you purchase the same coins through a non-verified account, they will most likely do anything possible to find a recent "taint" in your coin's history in order to spy on you and consider you a suspect.

I'm afraid this analysis is only done for them to create a web of identities and linked transactions. The reason they use for analyzing and confiscating coins, illicit activity, is just one pathetic excuse.

[tranthidung]

if you buy btc from another hodlr (forum, meetup, ect) how do you check if coins are clean enough to send to an exchange ?  How to prevent buying coins that can not be used ?  Is there an oracle website bitcoiners can use to "check coins".  Whats is the correct process...does seller provide wallet address coins will come from so it can be checked before transaction ?

I am guessing there is no perfect solution as you know of the privacy bitcoin transactions can give us, Coin join transactions and private wallets as Wasabi, and tumblers are there to help.

Some so-called not perfect resources

• Report Bitcoin spam (scam) and other coin addresses!
• Where and how to check a bitcoin address is used for scam purposes
• https://bitcoinwhoswho.com/tags
• https://www.bitcoin-spam.com/
• https://www.chainalysis.com/professional-services/

[dansus021]

personally i never found that an account got freeze because its bitcoin but Correct me if i am wrong, but same like the other guys

- Mix it if you want "Clean"  coin
- or just simply do OTC or P2P Transaction, using Decentralized Exchange is also Choice

[hatshepsut93]

Whats is the correct process...does seller provide wallet address coins will come from so it can be checked before transaction ?

If this is a concern to you, you can always ask the seller to show the inputs that they will send you. Then you can use sites like walletexplorer.com to try to learn about the history of these coins. If the coins were withdrawn from a known exchange or gambling site or even a darknet market, you will be able to see it. This does not guarantee that the coins are "clean", but it can prevent some problems.

But if you are buying coins on p2p markets, maybe it wouldn't be a problem to sell them p2p, so taint wouldn't be a concern.

[BrewMaster]

If this is a concern to you, you can always ask the seller to show the inputs that they will send you.

i wonder if anyone would give the same suggestion to those who are dealing with fiat. specially when you know for sure that fiat that reaches you is most definitely "dirty". imagine if you went to the grocery store and the seller asked you to first provide a bank statement about where you got your money from!

[hatshepsut93]

If this is a concern to you, you can always ask the seller to show the inputs that they will send you.

i wonder if anyone would give the same suggestion to those who are dealing with fiat. specially when you know for sure that fiat that reaches you is most definitely "dirty". imagine if you went to the grocery store and the seller asked you to first provide a bank statement about where you got your money from!

Yes, it's called financial monitoring. If you're buying a house or even a car or doing any other transaction past certain limit, your bank or even your counterparty will ask you about the origin of your funds if it's not clear to them. For example, if a bank sees that you receive salary, save it and then make a big purchase, they'll probably won't ask you about it, but if you're a new client and bring millions in cash, they will require some proof that the money are clean.

[The Cryptovator]

Always keep in mind, your safety is in your hand only. You can't make sure from where the seller will send the funds. Even seller promise you to send clean coin, show the address or sign a message. But during sending, he could send from another source. You can't do anything when it is sent out from the wallet. Just think about what you need to do after receive, forget about before receive if you can't trust the seller. As others said, just receive bitcoin via a reputed bitcoin mixer, problem solved. Don't take too many tresses for that.

[20kevin20]

personally i never found that an account got freeze because its bitcoin but Correct me if i am wrong, but same like the other guys

- Mix it if you want "Clean"  coin
- or just simply do OTC or P2P Transaction, using Decentralized Exchange is also Choice

Mixers are pretty much considered coin tainters by the authorities, so are decentralized txs. But usually, when they find out you've mixed or tried to obfuscate the history of a coin, they go all out on you.

[pixie85]

Most coins are tainted one way or another. It's very hard to get pristine coins and if you do you'll have to pay premium.

In time all coins will have some dirty ones among them like coins from hacks or confiscated from deep web traders.

Don't be scared of it. If exchanges ban mixed coins they won't have anything to trade anymore.

[xz0708]

Thanks everyone for taking time for the discussion - answered my questions about "cleanliness" and i learned a lot.  Very useful