UserU
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March 08, 2021, 11:19:53 AM |
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Maybe someone else did the same thing, but the one I remember doing it was @bpovtmg when he created the thread last September in which he was giving 200 Satoshis for free for those who installed Lightning Network wallet. That was exactly the reason why I downloaded Blue Wallet, but somehow I forgot to ask for those free satoshis in order to test it. That's him alright.
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LoyceV
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1. I would like to know if you have ever used the Lightning Network? 2. How often do you use it, and how would you rate the experience and difficulty of use? 3. Which Lightning implementation did you try, and what is your favourite one? 4. What do you think can be further improved? I'll answer: 1. Yes ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) 2. I pay with LN whenever I can, sometimes a few times per week. With the right wallet, it's very easy to use. 3. I've tried many (but won't mention the inconvenient ones). I now only use BlueWallet and Phoenix Wallet. The former has custodial LN, the latter non-custodial. Both on Android, both wallets take care of channels (they charge a small percentage fee for this), incoming capacity and connectivity. There's not much you have to setup manually (just create your backups). 4. Acceptance. And to accomplish that, more people should start using it. Where would they use it in the first place if the most used exchanges doesn't accept it yet? Then don't use those exchanges ![Tongue](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) I've used CoinPlaza and FixedFloat with LN. The latter has a very low minimum, it allows to exchange $1 worth of Bitcoin LN for an altcoin! It's a great way to try the LN network and see how fast it works too. I've even used LN to pay for hosting. 1. It requires miners fee which is the fee require for bitcoin transaction confirmation. To open and close a channel, it requires fee. 2. I have only little bitcoin Problem 1 is easy: use one of the wallets mentioned above. And problem 2 isn't a problem in LN: LN is perfect for small amounts! 4. I still hear of some vulnerabilities about it which are fixed already That's still true indeed, so don't put in more money than you can afford to lose. Honestly, I'm not going to lie, I have never used Lightning Network. Not because I against it or I don't understand it. Simply, so far I haven't found any places where I can use it. It's not an easy task to find merchant which accept Lightning Network payments. So far it seems that I only can try it for testing purpose only or on Testnet. I'll give you a reason: this very post is what made me bump you to Legendary! How's that for motivation to install a LN-wallet? ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) I do plan to actually try to use it, it is on my bucket list and I honestly feel kinda ashamed that I never really tried to do at least one transaction. Please post a QR-code with a 100 sat ($0.05, I'm cheap) LN payment request. I'll fund the first 10-ish I'll see (one per user of course). I don't want to turn this into a giveaway thread, but for testing it should be okay. If your request is valid for 24 hours I should see it on time (if it's only 1 hour I might be asleep). I'm asking for a QR-code so I can easily pay from mobile without copying codes.I think that international exchange giants such as Binance is what's going to decently boost up adoption if they started accepting Lightning. As we speak, the withdrawal fee is 0.0005 which is more or less $25 in current prices. That's definitely pretty high for most people in poor countries. It's pretty high in rich countries too. As long as they don't allow LN withdrawals, I simply don't withdraw low amounts of Bitcoin, but withdrawing an altcoin to an instant exchange to turn it into LN works like a charm!
I always said I only use LN for small amounts, and I'm okay with custodial for small amounts. But since Bitcoin went up quite a lot and $10 on-chain transactions aren't really worth the fees anymore, my LN balance is slowly increasing.
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Rikafip
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March 08, 2021, 03:38:21 PM Last edit: March 08, 2021, 03:52:18 PM by Rikafip |
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I do plan to actually try to use it, it is on my bucket list and I honestly feel kinda ashamed that I never really tried to do at least one transaction. Please post a QR-code with a 100 sat ($0.05, I'm cheap) LN payment request. I'll fund the first 10-ish I'll see (one per user of course). I don't want to turn this into a giveaway thread, but for testing it should be okay. If your request is valid for 24 hours I should see it on time (if it's only 1 hour I might be asleep). I'm asking for a QR-code so I can easily pay from mobile without copying codes.Let's give it a try then so here it is, QR code for 100 satoshis invoice ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.postimg.cc%2FK8X6qXfg%2FLN-invoice1.jpg&t=665&c=eOdDajVVGll8ww) edit: Damn that was fast, 100 satoshis already received! Thanks @LoyceV, I really appreciate it. Now I can cross it off the bucket list! Anyone willing to do the same, post QR code with a few satoshis invoice so I can try to do the same? ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.postimg.cc%2FsDncx5Qf%2FLN2.jpg&t=665&c=aIBHVdycSMaSwQ)
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LoyceV
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March 08, 2021, 04:14:04 PM Last edit: March 08, 2021, 04:48:54 PM by LoyceV |
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I made the payment from Phoenix Wallet, so it's not just "internal" on BlueWallet. Anyone willing to do the same, post QR code with a few satoshis invoice so I can try to do the same? You can try a casino. Deposit 5 sat, double it, withdraw 10 sat ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
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pawanjain
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March 08, 2021, 04:17:57 PM Last edit: March 08, 2021, 04:53:49 PM by pawanjain |
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I have not used the Lightning Network yet but will probably use it soon. I did try to open up a channel once. I had downloaded and configured the Electrum wallet to open up a channel just when the payment was settled mutually. So I'm just waiting for the next payment period to arrive when I will be opening up a channel and then start the Lightning Network payment on occasions.
One thing I would like to ask is many people are mentioning wallets I have never heard of before. Is Electrum not so good for Lightning payments or are the other wallets too good for them ?
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LoyceV
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March 08, 2021, 04:50:19 PM |
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Is Electrum not so good for Lightning payments or are the other wallets too good for them ? I haven't tried LN on Electrum. It requires you to manually open a channel, and after trying that on several wallets, I came to the conclusion that it's much easier to use a wallet that does everything for me.
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pawanjain
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March 08, 2021, 04:56:12 PM |
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Is Electrum not so good for Lightning payments or are the other wallets too good for them ? I haven't tried LN on Electrum. It requires you to manually open a channel, and after trying that on several wallets, I came to the conclusion that it's much easier to use a wallet that does everything for me. So by the term "does everything for me" you mean it automatically opens a channel for you right ? Even if it does it automatically, you would still have to pay the fees for opening the channel right ?
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| | . .Duelbits. | │ | ..........UNLEASH.......... THE ULTIMATE GAMING EXPERIENCE | │ | DUELBITS FANTASY SPORTS | ████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄ ░▄████████████████▄ ▐██████████████████▄ ████████████████████ ████████████████████▌ █████████████████████ ████████████████▀▀▀ ███████████████▌ ███████████████▌ ████████████████ ████████████████ ████████████████ ████▀▀███████▀▀ | . ▬▬ VS ▬▬ | ████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄ ░▄████████████████▄ ▐██████████████████▄ ████████████████████ ████████████████████▌ █████████████████████ ███████████████████ ███████████████▌ ███████████████▌ ████████████████ ████████████████ ████████████████ ████▀▀███████▀▀ | /// PLAY FOR FREE /// WIN FOR REAL | │ | ..PLAY NOW.. | |
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LoyceV
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So by the term "does everything for me" you mean it automatically opens a channel for you right ? Even if it does it automatically, you would still have to pay the fees for opening the channel right ? It depends: BlueWallet is custodial, so you don't need your own channel. I think LN transaction fees are up to 0.3%, which is still very low (assuming you only use it for small amounts). Phoenix Wallet opens a channel for you. They charge some fees for this: - Sending LN payments: as low as 1 sat + 0.01% of the amount sent. If no route can be found for this price, the fees will increase gradually up to a maximum of 12 sats + 0.3%.
- Receiving LN payments: no fees, unless a new channel has to be created.
- On-the-fly channel creation: 0.1% of the amount received, with a 1000 sat minimum fee. This covers the cost of opening a channel, and allocating additional liquidity on our side. The amount received must be at least 10 000 sat for this to happen.
- Swap-in (on-chain tx to Phoenix): 0.1% of the amount received. This covers the cost of opening a channel, and allocating additional liquidity on our side.
- Swap-out (sending from Phoenix to a bitcoin address): variable, depending on the bitcoin mempool usage and our current UTXO set. Note that we're not taking a cut here, everything goes to the miners.
I kinda expect them to charge a bit more in the future, but that's just my speculation.
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decodx
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March 09, 2021, 09:56:19 AM |
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Is Electrum not so good for Lightning payments or are the other wallets too good for them ? I haven't tried LN on Electrum. It requires you to manually open a channel, and after trying that on several wallets, I came to the conclusion that it's much easier to use a wallet that does everything for me. So by the term "does everything for me" you mean it automatically opens a channel for you right ? Even if it does it automatically, you would still have to pay the fees for opening the channel right ? BlueWallet doesn't require opening an LN channel. As LoyceV replied, this custodial part of the wallet where the channel is already open on their side. You just need to transfer part of the funds from the main chain to top-up the LN wallet.
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OgNasty
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March 09, 2021, 08:08:59 PM |
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I have never used the lightning network. There's lots of altcoin networks I've never used. I don't find lightning to be any more special than any of the others. I actually find it to be less honorable than most given the developer's attitude following the New York Agreement so it isn't something I'd rush to support. I've also never had a single escrow request come in for Lightning funds, despite receiving hundreds of requests for other altcoins, leading me to believe that not many users are doing any real activity with Lightning.
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OgNasty
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March 11, 2021, 10:29:54 PM |
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I have never used the lightning network. There's lots of altcoin networks I've never used. I don't find lightning to be any more special than any of the others. I actually find it to be less honorable than most given the developer's attitude following the New York Agreement so it isn't something I'd rush to support.
Who actually still follow New York Agreement? I thought people forget it after Bitcoin community boycott SegWit2x. Nobody follows the New York Agreement anymore. That's the point. People moved on and created a 400 billion dollar altcoin market. The lost synergies have most definitely cost the Bitcoin market a ton of value, heartache, time spent bickering amongst each other, and splintered the real resource, creators of use cases, while making low value trades of BTC ridiculously expensive and replacing real world activity with the idea of hodling. I don't know about you, but if I found Bitcoin today and it's main use was to hold and try to sell to someone later for more, I would have avoided it, as I don't invest in the Greater Fool Theory. Wall Street is certainly embracing it as a way to generate management fees, so if that was satoshi's goal, to create another revenue source for the existing monetary system, congratulations, we did it! People are even more excited about Dogecoin now for god's sake... It's tough to say what could have been, but it's simple to say what became was not the original intent that had many of us excited to help change the world. Do you think the New York Agreement would still have failed if everyone knew that in 2021 the Lightning network would be what it is today? I've also never had a single escrow request come in for Lightning funds, despite receiving hundreds of requests for other altcoins, leading me to believe that not many users are doing any real activity with Lightning.
That's because LN only useful when you frequently make transaction and more suitable for micro-payments, where escrow usually is neither of them. OK, I've never had someone ask me to open a Lightning channel for any reason, ever. Escrow was just one example. Come to think of it, I don't even think I've seen Lightning payments accepted for any goods or services on this forum ever. This despite having the "altcoin pass" to post anywhere here while other altcoins do not.
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PrimeNumber7
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I have never used the lightning network. There's lots of altcoin networks I've never used. I don't find lightning to be any more special than any of the others.
I would not describe LN as an "altcoin network". LN is a 2nd layer above the bitcoin protocol. If you use LN, you are transacting in bitcoin. If you have an open LN channel and receive a LN payment for 0.001 BTC, you are cryptographically guaranteed to own that 0.001 BTC, the only difference is that the transaction is not settled on the blockchain, however, the risk of losing the coin is near zero because if your counterparty were to attempt to double-spend this transaction, they would be risking a near-certain loss of far greater funds.
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Pmalek (OP)
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March 12, 2021, 07:29:32 AM |
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however, the risk of losing the coin is near zero because if your counterparty were to attempt to double-spend this transaction, they would be risking a near-certain loss of far greater funds. The person who created and opened the payment channel is risking losing his whole deposit if he attempts to manipulate the off-chain transactions. The risk is not the same for the other participant in the channel because he didn't deposit his own coins. What you described will be a great manipulation prevention method when dual funded channels get implemented. That way, both parties can fund the channel and they risk losing their money in case of fraudulent attempts.
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Rath_
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[...] however, the risk of losing the coin is near zero because if your counterparty were to attempt to double-spend this transaction, they would be risking a near-certain loss of far greater funds.
"Double-spend" in this context sounds inaccurate. It suggests that the other party can freely create any transaction which is not the case since the funds are locked in a multi-signature address. Instead, the other party can perform an uncooperative channel close and broadcast an old state of the channel (an old commitment transaction). Such a transaction can be easily revoked by the other participant of the channel if they come back online before the locktime expires. Also, a penalty transaction can be broadcast if that happens. You can read more about it in this blog post. The risk is not the same for the other participant in the channel because he didn't deposit his own coins. What you described will be a great manipulation prevention method when dual funded channels get implemented. That way, both parties can fund the channel and they risk losing their money in case of fraudulent attempts.
There is a risk even if you don't deposit your own coins. For example, when someone asks you to route their payment through your node then you receive some coins from them in one channel and you need to use some other channel to send the exact same amount (minus your routing fee). Now, if your node went offline and that person broadcast the previous state of the channel, you could lose money this way. Also, both parties need to maintain a channel reserve, which is equal to about 1-3% of the channel's capacity. So, if you open a channel to someone, transact with them a couple of times and the other side ends up with the 0 balance. The other party can still lose money because they have to maintain that unspendable channel reserve on their side.
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OgNasty
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March 12, 2021, 06:27:53 PM |
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I have never used the lightning network. There's lots of altcoin networks I've never used. I don't find lightning to be any more special than any of the others.
I would not describe LN as an "altcoin network". I would. I did. I’ll do it again because that is what it is. I don’t care what cryptographic magic or guarantees make users feel like Lightning is Bitcoin, it isn’t... Anyone could make an altcoin with the same cryptographic guarantees, but nobody would call it Bitcoin and rightfully so. Do you think ETH’s Wrapped Bitcoin is also Bitcoin? Do you think USD loans given with Bitcoin as collateral is also Bitcoin? Are Casascius Coins bitcoins or are they holding BTC? What about leveraged BTC on exchanges or call options, are those Bitcoin too? Where is the line drawn? Just because Core maintainers developed it doesn’t give anyone the right to call it Bitcoin any more than CSW can say his altcoin garbage is Bitcoin. It should be pretty obvious that Bitcoin exists on the Bitcoin blockchain but I figured it was obvious that having a dick means you should use the men’s restroom, so maybe I’m just not with the times and LBTC identifies as BTC.
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9kek
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March 12, 2021, 08:16:21 PM |
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I've never used it, i don't usually do many small payments so i didn't need it. But I maybe use it in the future if i'll need it.
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PrimeNumber7
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March 13, 2021, 03:26:46 AM Last edit: March 13, 2021, 06:11:08 AM by PrimeNumber7 |
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I have never used the lightning network. There's lots of altcoin networks I've never used. I don't find lightning to be any more special than any of the others.
I would not describe LN as an "altcoin network". I would. I did. I’ll do it again because that is what it is. I don’t care what cryptographic magic or guarantees make users feel like Lightning is Bitcoin, it isn’t... Anyone could make an altcoin with the same cryptographic guarantees, but nobody would call it Bitcoin and rightfully so. Do you think ETH’s Wrapped Bitcoin is also Bitcoin? When two people open a LN channel, they are having bitcoin held in a multisig address, and are also pre-signing a closing transaction in which each party will receive the same amount of bitcoin they had (less tx fees) when they opened the channel. As transactions done between the two parties of a channel, each party will exchange new signed transactions that will allow the other party to close the channel while receiving an agreed-upon amount of bitcoin. Having coin in a LN channel can be compared to having an unconfirmed transaction that was sent to you, except there are additional safeguards against double-spending. The closest thing to bitcoin in your list is WBTC, and with WBTC, the end-user has to trust a third party to follow through with their obligations to allow for WBTC/BTC redemptions. [...] however, the risk of losing the coin is near zero because if your counterparty were to attempt to double-spend this transaction, they would be risking a near-certain loss of far greater funds.
<>Instead, the other party can perform an uncooperative channel close and broadcast an old state of the channel (an old commitment transaction). Such a transaction can be easily revoked by the other participant of the channel if they come back online before the locktime expires. Also, a penalty transaction can be broadcast if that happens. Yes, I am aware. Being that this is the B&H section, I wanted to minimize the technical details. See the bolded part of my comment: If you have an open LN channel and receive a LN payment for 0.001 BTC, you are cryptographically guaranteed to own that 0.001 BTC, the only difference is that the transaction is not settled on the blockchain, however, the risk of losing the coin is near zero because if your counterparty were to attempt to double-spend this transaction, they would be risking a near-certain loss of far greater funds.
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pooya87
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March 13, 2021, 04:18:20 AM |
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I would. I did. I’ll do it again because that is what it is. I don’t care what cryptographic magic or guarantees make users feel like Lightning is Bitcoin, it isn’t... Anyone could make an altcoin with the same cryptographic guarantees, but nobody would call it Bitcoin and rightfully so. Do you think ETH’s Wrapped Bitcoin is also Bitcoin? Do you think USD loans given with Bitcoin as collateral is also Bitcoin? Are Casascius Coins bitcoins or are they holding BTC? What about leveraged BTC on exchanges or call options, are those Bitcoin too? Where is the line drawn? Just because Core maintainers developed it doesn’t give anyone the right to call it Bitcoin any more than CSW can say his altcoin garbage is Bitcoin. It should be pretty obvious that Bitcoin exists on the Bitcoin blockchain but I figured it was obvious that having a dick means you should use the men’s restroom, so maybe I’m just not with the times and LBTC identifies as BTC.
You are using irrelevant examples. None of the things you named rely on bitcoin. For example shitcoin (WBTC) built on top of another shitcoin (ETH) has nothing to do with bitcoin. Some day the ethereum foundation could decide they wanted to spend all the WBTCs on their chain and they can do that easily regardless of what is locked on bitcoin blockchain. Same with BSV shitcoin. On the other hand LN is built on top of bitcoin and relies on bitcoin and uses pretty much the same protocol without the "blockchain". Users are still in control of their funds and they rely on Bitcoin protocol. Maybe we can't call it "bitcoin" but it is not an altcoin either, it is a second layer built on top of bitcoin protocol to help the scaling. And I believe that using a second layer is the only way to scale bitcoin but as long as we also increase the on-chain capacity.
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FinneysTrueVision
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March 13, 2021, 05:41:15 AM |
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I used it a few times a couple of years ago when the first Neutrino clients were released. Lightning App was the first wallet that I used. It was really buggy and I had a lot of failed payments. I think eventually they stopped developing the wallet which is odd because Lightning Labs entire existence revolves around the Lightning Network. I also tried out Zap Wallet, Blue Wallet and tippin.me. Now that we're seeing new services that support lightning payments I am thinking of giving it another try. The new Moon browser extension is something I'm interested in trying next time I do online shopping.
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Pmalek (OP)
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March 13, 2021, 07:54:07 AM |
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Are Casascius Coins bitcoins or are they holding BTC? You aren't the first one to suggest that the Lightning Network isn't Bitcoin. Casascius coins are Bitcoin as much as Electrum, Core, Ledger or any other implementation is Bitcoin. They are not, but they store your keys and allow for easy transfers of digital values. I can't agree with you that LN isn't Bitcoin, because as PrimeNumber7 mentioned, you are transferring BTCs over the network. More precisely, two parties are signing a balance sheet where they agree what each of the participants gets when it's time to close the channel. Although those transactions don't get broadcast on the blockchain, they affect what the final balance (in bitcoins) will be.
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