2021-03-12 Coindesk - Bitcoin Not a Long-Term Allocation, Says Man Group CEO

[acquafredda]

Luke Ellis, CEO of U.K. hedge fund Man Group, sees bitcoin as a trading instrument rather than a long-term asset allocation.
Appearing on CNBC's "Squawk Box" on Friday, Ellis revealed that he had "dabbled" in bitcoin but sees himself as a trader rather than a HODler. "I see it as a trading instrument, so we trade around it and try to provide some liquidity into the market," he told CNBC's Andrew Ross Sorkin.
Ellis also said he did not think it was necessary for companies to hold bitcoin on their balance sheets, describing this as "confusing" considering the business use case relative to the inherent speculation.

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-not-a-long-term-allocation-says-man-group-ceo

To each his own. If Luke Ellis never heard of the Bitcoin Standard and failed to recognize the very different properties of money that Bitcoin has, nobody will stop him to trade as we need traders as well as hodlers.
I see it as a long-term allocation but, of course, I am biased.

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[InvoKing]

We are in March and not in February anymore, fix the date in the title.

[bbc.reporter]

@acquafredda. However, the service of traders as liquidity providers for bitcoin and the whole cryptospace should be acknowledged as positive. There should also be more of them to provide more liquidity and more price stability for the users.

[acquafredda]

We are in March and not in February anymore, fix the date in the title.

Done thank for letting me know.

@acquafredda. However, the service of traders as liquidity providers for bitcoin and the whole cryptospace should be acknowledged as positive. There should also be more of them to provide more liquidity and more price stability for the users.

I know but I usually cannot stand when somebody talks without knowing the full picture.
True that we need more of them and that is for a good service but, hey, words for me are very important. 

[bbc.reporter]

@acquafredda. Hehe I also understand what you are telling everyone. News media sites have a way of deforming the real story for clickbait and reactions.

In any case, this Man Group CEO is correct if considering the price of bitcoin at present. However, if he bought bitcoin on 2015, he would be telling us a different story hehehehe.

[cr1776]

And yet he considers fiat to be a long term allocation?  Who is he kidding?  Something guaranteed to lose 2-2000% of value every year.

[aoluain]

I wonder has he heard of Michael Saylor? or any of Michaels "teachings" about how FIAT
is devaluing and that the only long-term allocation is Bitcoin?

of course we here at BCT are pro Bitcoin and we like positivity but I suppose there will always
be opposing thoughts on Bitcoin, that isnt going to disappear.

[bbc.reporter]

And yet he considers fiat to be a long term allocation?  Who is he kidding?  Something guaranteed to lose 2-2000% of value every year.

However, who are we also kidding? The top 1% are wealthy because they have been owning everything. They do not care if the longterm allocation is in fiat or cryptocoin or something else. They own everything, the products you buy, the banks you use, the people in government you vote and later also bitcoin’s market will be controlled by them.

[acquafredda]

And yet he considers fiat to be a long term allocation?  Who is he kidding?  Something guaranteed to lose 2-2000% of value every year.

However, who are we also kidding? The top 1% are wealthy because they have been owning everything. They do not care if the longterm allocation is in fiat or cryptocoin or something else. They own everything, the products you buy, the banks you use, the people in government you vote and later also bitcoin’s market will be controlled by them.

That is true actually. The game between their world and the world of bitcoin is it at the very beginning so it is too early to say who's kidding who and certainly I agree with cr1776 going back on topic. It is a long game, not a 100mt sprint. We will see what will be of fiat money in 10-15 years

[pixie85]

He should have a chat with people who bought Bitcoin between 2010 and 2018. That's going to be at least a million people who will have something to say about it being a long-term allocation.

If he thinks it's not we can agree to disagree. If he only had a way to prove his point... I can prove it by showing him how much money I made holding Bitcoin for 5 years.

[acquafredda]

Maybe a million of serious holders is a bit too much, don't you think? But maybe a couple of thousands today are early retirees, businessmen etc.
I feel so dumb having traded altcoins in the past for btc: I discovered the long-term allocation before others did but I fooled myself along the way. Not anymore.

[bbc.reporter]

And yet he considers fiat to be a long term allocation?  Who is he kidding?  Something guaranteed to lose 2-2000% of value every year.

However, who are we also kidding? The top 1% are wealthy because they have been owning everything. They do not care if the longterm allocation is in fiat or cryptocoin or something else. They own everything, the products you buy, the banks you use, the people in government you vote and later also bitcoin’s market will be controlled by them.

That is true actually. The game between their world and the world of bitcoin is it at the very beginning so it is too early to say who's kidding who and certainly I agree with cr1776 going back on topic. It is a long game, not a 100mt sprint. We will see what will be of fiat money in 10-15 years

I predict fiat money will be similar in 10 - 15 years as it is today. Do you think bitcoin or another cryptocoin will replace fiat under the present occurences where bitcoin is only being used as a speculative investment? Also, how can we price everything in bitcoin? It is very volatile, a coffee today might be 0.2 of a coffee tomorrow hehe.

[Saint-loup]

And yet he considers fiat to be a long term allocation?  Who is he kidding?  Something guaranteed to lose 2-2000% of value every year.

However, who are we also kidding? The top 1% are wealthy because they have been owning everything. They do not care if the longterm allocation is in fiat or cryptocoin or something else. They own everything, the products you buy, the banks you use, the people in government you vote and later also bitcoin’s market will be controlled by them.

That is true actually. The game between their world and the world of bitcoin is it at the very beginning so it is too early to say who's kidding who and certainly I agree with cr1776 going back on topic. It is a long game, not a 100mt sprint. We will see what will be of fiat money in 10-15 years

I predict fiat money will be similar in 10 - 15 years as it is today. Do you think bitcoin or another cryptocoin will replace fiat under the present occurences where bitcoin is only being used as a speculative investment? Also, how can we price everything in bitcoin? It is very volatile, a coffee today might be 0.2 of a coffee tomorrow hehe.

Have you ever heard of CBDCs bbc.reporter? Fiat money is evolving and won't be same is 10-15 years as it is today, I am sure digital currencies  will be more and more used, and banks less and less present. Fiat money will still be controlled by central banks but people won't use retail banks anymore, they will be their own banks.

[uneng]

Also, how can we price everything in bitcoin? It is very volatile, a coffee today might be 0.2 of a coffee tomorrow hehe.

I believe it could be quite simple. It's all about how much the average wage is, so the products should value proportionally a reasonable and fair price. The main point is that an individual wouldn't lose purchasing power by saving money on long run. There wouldn't be an inflation eating your savings and there wouldn't be products increasing a lot in price often while your wage increases a little bit yearly.

[cr1776]

And yet he considers fiat to be a long term allocation?  Who is he kidding?  Something guaranteed to lose 2-2000% of value every year.

However, who are we also kidding? The top 1% are wealthy because they have been owning everything. They do not care if the longterm allocation is in fiat or cryptocoin or something else. They own everything, the products you buy, the banks you use, the people in government you vote and later also bitcoin’s market will be controlled by them.

That is true actually. The game between their world and the world of bitcoin is it at the very beginning so it is too early to say who's kidding who and certainly I agree with cr1776 going back on topic. It is a long game, not a 100mt sprint. We will see what will be of fiat money in 10-15 years

I predict fiat money will be similar in 10 - 15 years as it is today. Do you think bitcoin or another cryptocoin will replace fiat under the present occurences where bitcoin is only being used as a speculative investment? Also, how can we price everything in bitcoin? It is very volatile, a coffee today might be 0.2 of a coffee tomorrow hehe.

As time progresses, bitcoin will likely become more stable.  At some point - in my opinion perhaps another 1 or 2 orders of magnitude from here - it will reach fiat equilibrium and will then become quite stable and able to be used as a currency.

[bbc.reporter]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

[Saint-loup]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

Online payment services don't use blockchains, they don't allow you to hold your funds off-line, they can lock your funds, seize them and doing exit scams like exchanges. If you only hold your funds on exchanges I understand you won't find big differences with online payment services, but if you are using non custodial wallets, you will enjoy the blockchain technology.

[cr1776]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

[acquafredda]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

I would add that I do not very much care if bitcoin will replace fiat money or not so long as it will become an efficient store of value that allows me to save my cash in a better form, avoid inflation, and keep my wealth throughout generations.
Am I asking too much?

[Saint-loup]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

To get more stability Bitcoin needs to grow in volumes exchanged, not in price. Because the more the price increases, the more the markets are able to correct. Beating All Time Highs has never been an indicator of stability for any assets.

[cr1776]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

To get more stability Bitcoin needs to grow in volumes exchanged, not in price. Because the more the price increases, the more the markets are able to correct. Beating All Time Highs has never been an indicator of stability for any assets.

The fiat volume will increase though as the fiat price does. The absolute volume of Bitcoin exchanged doesn't need to increase.  The available bitcoin on the exchanges may even drop as usage increases vs trading. The more usage getting coins off the exchanges, the better.

[Saint-loup]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

To get more stability Bitcoin needs to grow in volumes exchanged, not in price. Because the more the price increases, the more the markets are able to correct. Beating All Time Highs has never been an indicator of stability for any assets.

The fiat volume will increase though as the fiat price does. The absolute volume of Bitcoin exchanged doesn't need to increase.  The available bitcoin on the exchanges may even drop as usage increases vs trading. The more usage getting coins off the exchanges, the better.

If there is no more volume on exchanges, big sales and big purchases won't be fulfilled by the market and the price will slump. Many currencies used by large countries in the world have already crashed. Being used is not enough to prevent that.

[acquafredda]

No man, I do not agree.
If you remove anything from the market it would become actually priceless as there are no sellers wishing to sell. If bitcoins have been taken out of the exchanges there is a clear explanation for it. Once they have realized what bitcoin stands for they went off to secure them in the best way possible.
Sorry, but you should revise your stance on this.
I would stress cr1776 comment
The more usage users getting coins off the exchanges, the better.

[bbc.reporter]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

Online payment services don't use blockchains, they don't allow you to hold your funds off-line, they can lock your funds, seize them and doing exit scams like exchanges. If you only hold your funds on exchanges I understand you won't find big differences with online payment services, but if you are using non custodial wallets, you will enjoy the blockchain technology.

The blockchain hehehe. I reckon all legendaries should have learned what blockchains are and where they should matter. If your blockchain is a centralized ledger that can censor you, what use is this blockchain?

Also, this blockchain will be centralized. The custody over your tokens will not matter.

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

10s of thousands of volatilty will make it worse and useless except for speculation.

[cr1776]

@Saint-loup. What will be so new about it? CBDCs will be similar to online payment apps and services and credit cards. It will offer nothing new. What it will offer is censorship, surveillance and more oppression. Paper money is more censorship resistant and anonymous.

@cr1776. I have heard this mentioned by Tone Vays during 2016. The volatility went from hundreds to thousands however.

@uneng. It is not quite simple if the item you want to purchase is $10 and volatility of the currency is more than the price of the item.

True, we aren’t there yet though. Another order of magnitude or two, eg 10 to 100 times, of growth from here will help stability. Of course the stability by then might still have 10s of thousands of dollars in volatility, but as a percentage, it will likely be less.  Time will tell. 😀

To get more stability Bitcoin needs to grow in volumes exchanged, not in price. Because the more the price increases, the more the markets are able to correct. Beating All Time Highs has never been an indicator of stability for any assets.

The fiat volume will increase though as the fiat price does. The absolute volume of Bitcoin exchanged doesn't need to increase.  The available bitcoin on the exchanges may even drop as usage increases vs trading. The more usage getting coins off the exchanges, the better.

If there is no more volume on exchanges, big sales and big purchases won't be fulfilled by the market and the price will slump. Many currencies used by large countries in the world have already crashed. Being used is not enough to prevent that.

If there is more use, there won't be "big sales" on the exchanges and the volume of coins for sale will dry up.  The only way big buys will fill is having the price of the remaining coins go up until the buy is filled.  Eventually it will reach equilibrium where there are few coins for sale, but all are immediately snapped up.

I guess time will show what happens.  An important point is that once people don't need to leave crypto, then there will be fewer sellers since no one needs to sell. 

[estenity]

very strange....
or rather, very interesting present trend.

BTC price linked to option expiry ?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg56653849#msg56653849

[prehisto]

I would like to ask him , what then is long term allocation financial instrument if not BTC?
I agree that there couls be a discussion about the short term entry point of bitcoin since we have had huge run-up, but otherwise where else to put your money longterm? Stocks, which are highly volatile curretnly and are currently at ATH?