ELECTRUM SEED MYSTERY: MANUALLY EXTENDED PHRASE

[george00562]

Hello everyone,

The last year I created three wallets, with Electrum, using Ubuntu installed on a USB. I only saved the files on the USB, Huge mistake

This year I tried to access to the wallets again, but the USB isn't working, so I had to use the seed phrase to recover them.

For two of the wallets, I didn't have any problem using the seed phrases, they worked fine and I can use the wallets again.

But for the last one, when I created it the last year, I used the option available in Electrum to extend the phrase manually, when you install the wallet, so in the next step you have an available space where you can continue extending the 12 word phrase. I extended it with 15 more words written by me, 4 numbers and 8 random keyboard characters like:   ')#%&/*@_! .  

So in total, the seed phrase was made of 27 words,  4 numbers and 8 symbols. The wallet was succesfully installed, and I made transactions with it. I had written down the seed phrase in a paper, but when I enter it in Electrum right now, using Windows 10 and the last version of Electrum, it doesn't work, no wallet shows up.


Does anyone has any suggestion of a possible solution?  


Thanks for your time,

[1714697630]

1714697630

[1714697630]

1714697630

[BlackHatCoiner]

So in total, the seed phrase was made of 27 words,  4 numbers and 8 symbols.

But these are not words. You can differentiate them by saying that they are symbols separated with a space.

The wallet was succesfully installed, and I made transactions with it. I had written down the seed phrase in a paper, but when I enter it in Electrum right now, using Windows 10 and the last version of Electrum, it doesn't work, no wallet shows up.

Do you enter the mnemonic only? You won't see any funds if you don't provide the added numbers and symbols too. I'm just asking because you say that you have written down only the seed phrase, which is not enough if you don't have that hard password you entered.

[Charles-Tim]

Does anyone has any suggestion of a possible solution?

What did you mean by it did not work? The balance was zero (0) or the next button was not available after you input the seed phrase and the extended words?

[nc50lc]

Does anyone has any suggestion of a possible solution?  

The only thing that may have happened is you typed the wrong BIP39 passphrase.
Because whether the "extension" is correct or not, you'll be able to finish creating a wallet, the difference will be the key pairs (and addresses) in the wallet.

Also, answer Charles-Tim's question, "doesn't work" is quite vague.
BTW, if it's the latter, you shouldn't type the extension together with the seed phrase, you'll need to click "option" and enable "extend this seed with custom words". Then type the "extension" in the next window.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Create a new wallet on Electrum.
Select "I already have a seed", and click "Next".
Enter the first 12 words which were given to you.
Click "Options" and check the box marked "Extend this seed with custom words".
Click "Next", and then enter the 15 words, 4 numbers, and 8 characters you chose exactly as you wrote them down.
Click "Next" again, and set a wallet password if you desire.

If this wallet does not show your previous addresses and transactions, then the most likely problem is that you have entered additional words/numbers/characters incorrectly. Try again, paying particular attention to any spaces between them.

[Coin-Keeper]

One other question would be are you using the EXACT same keyboard when you are entering the #%$&%^* characters you used for key extension during wallet creation in the past?

When you enter SEED those are normal letters only.  Some keyboards handle the special characters differently.  This is unlikely your issue but it cannot be overlooked IF you are CERTAIN you are entering the extra extension characters correctly.  We can pick up on this if you don't know what I am referring to.  Just wanted this out there as one possibility if you get stuck.

[george00562]

Ok guys, thanks for your answers!
 I'm new on the forum so I don't know if this is the correct way to reply to all of you.

BlackHatCoiner: I've tried entering the whole seed phrase, exactly as I wrote it down in the paper when I created it. When I created it, I added 15 more words separated with spaces, and in the end I added the numbers and symbols all together. So the final part of the phrase was : 79&%;@:03!+# (just an example).  So let me know if I understand what you say, Should I type the numbers and symbols separated with spaces between them?

Charles Tim: The balance is 0. So Electrum recognizes the first 12 words, then I click the option to extend the phrase, I type the extension in the next screen, and then the wallet shows no transaction nor btc.

nc50lc: Yes, I click the option to extend the phrase, so I don't type all together in the first screen of the seed. I'm new in using Electrum so, what does it mean that I typed wrong the BIP39 phrase, and the key pairs?

o_e_l_e_o: I've done exactly what you said, but the problem persist. Do you also suggest me to introduce spaces between every number and symbol?

Coin-keeper: It could be a possibility. I use the same keyboard, but when I use Ubuntu, the characters are not in the same position of the characters on Windows when I type them.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Should I type the numbers and symbols separated with spaces between them?
...
Do you also suggest me to introduce spaces between every number and symbol?

You need to enter the words, numbers, and symbols exactly as you entered them when you first created the wallet. If there were spaces between the words, then you must enter spaces between the words. If there were no spaces between the characters, then you must not enter spaces between the characters. Everything must be in the same order, the same upper/lower case, the same words, the same numbers, the same symbols, the same number of spaces in the same places.

There is no "wrong" extension. Any extension you enter will generate a wallet, but every wallet generated by every extension will be different. Only by entering the identical extension that you entered the first time will you land on the same wallet that you originally used.

[NeuroticFish]

So the final part of the phrase was : 79&%;@:03!+# (just an example).  So let me know if I understand what you say, Should I type the numbers and symbols separated with spaces between them?

No. You should type them exactly as you did before. And if you had one or more spaces you should also add them in the same way. Even a space at the end may matter (if it was there or not).
Also when you click Options, make sure you click only "extend this seed with custom words" and not "bip 39 seed", because the result is different if you check or not that box.

[Dabs]

This is not the answer you are looking for, but next time, I suggest you just write down only the seed words and don't use any additional words for your Electrum wallet. If you want more words, make Electrum do it for you by playing with the console and typing make_seed(256) if you want 24 words for example.

This is just an opinion, but if you're intending on storing something like 100 BTC or even 10 BTC, then you don't really need more than whatever words the wallet gives you. If you're concerned about security, you may want to research about multi-sig instead and have two or three different wallets to do it, but it's more inconvenient and you stand to lose coins if you don't know what you're doing.

[Pmalek]

Coin-keeper: It could be a possibility. I use the same keyboard, but when I use Ubuntu, the characters are not in the same position of the characters on Windows when I type them.

What about languages? Are you using multiple languages and keyboard layouts? I have 3 languages installed on my devices: English, Croatian, and German. Whenever I move away from the standard English configuration, both the special characters and certain letters change positions. On top of that, new letters native to those languages get introduced.

It might be a weird question, but when you wrote down your seed the first time you created your wallet, did you make sure that you entered the characters you wanted into the field? Because a different language or keyboard layout could have changed it for you.

Random special characters with English layout (?><~@:)
Pressing the same letters when on Croatian language layout (_:;ŽĆČ)

[nc50lc]

nc50lc: Yes, I click the option to extend the phrase, so I don't type all together in the first screen of the seed. I'm new in using Electrum so, what does it mean that I typed wrong the BIP39 phrase, and the key pairs?

As I've explained, you'll be able to complete creating a wallet whether the extension is correct or not. But if the extension is incorrect, it will produce a totally different wallet.
The key pairs are the private and public keys the wallet contains, basically where the addresses are based.

As the consensus here, you likely typed an incorrect "BIP39 passphrase" aka "seed extension".

[o_e_l_e_o]

If you want more words, make Electrum do it for you by playing with the console and typing make_seed(256) if you want 24 words for example.

I would disagree. As soon as you start doing non-standard things when creating your seed phrase, you increase the risk of running in to problems further down the line. Using a seed extension or passphrase is a very common and standardized process; forcing Electrum to generate seeds phrases of different lengths is not.

This is just an opinion, but if you're intending on storing something like 100 BTC or even 10 BTC, then you don't really need more than whatever words the wallet gives you.

There are a lot of different reasons to use a passphrase, and 12 words plus a passphrase gives very different security to 24 words, for example. A passphrase allows you to have multiple wallets with the same seed phrase, allows you to hide wallets more effectively, gives plausible deniability, gives you two things you can back up separately, and so on.

The issue here isn't the use of a passphrase, it's that OP has obviously not written it down exactly as he entered it.

[george00562]

PROBLEM SOLVED 

After trying a lot of different alternatives, the solution was to type a single space just at the beginning of the extension. All the other words, symbols, and numbers were exactly the same as I had written them down.  So the problem wasn't a different keyboard layout. The problem was that I didn't pay attention when I created the wallet to remark that there was space between the first 12 words and the extension.

I hope this can help in future to other people.

Thanks a lot guys for your help and cooperation, I appreciate it so much, good luck!

[Dabs]

If you want more words, make Electrum do it for you by playing with the console and typing make_seed(256) if you want 24 words for example.

I would disagree. As soon as you start doing non-standard things when creating your seed phrase, you increase the risk of running in to problems further down the line. Using a seed extension or passphrase is a very common and standardized process; forcing Electrum to generate seeds phrases of different lengths is not.

There are a lot of different reasons to use a passphrase, and 12 words plus a passphrase gives very different security to 24 words, for example. A passphrase allows you to have multiple wallets with the same seed phrase, allows you to hide wallets more effectively, gives plausible deniability, gives you two things you can back up separately, and so on.

OP fixed it already, but wanted to show this:



So, ... using 256 bits instead of the default 128 to get 24 words instead of 12 isn't really "non-standard" but trying 1034 bits to get 94 words seems a bit off (and that other guy with 600 words too.)

The other reasons make sense too, but hiding wallets so they are not seen in the first place is probably a better idea.

[Coin-Keeper]

Another happy ending.    I applaud you sticking with it to figure it out.  I generally try to avoid spaces because they don't stand out to my eyes like an actual character.  Its too easy to type a double space or whatever and miss it when you need to restore a wallet. Just my take knowing my personal weaknesses.

[Pmalek]

Congratulations!
It's great that the issue was resolved in a satisfactory matter. But moving forward, I would recommend that you don't overcomplicate your security like this. I assume you have family or heirs who will inherit your assets if something happens to you. If you had difficulties figuring out the passphrase (and it was you who set it up), imagine the problems they would have to go through when recovering your wallet. Keep your coins safe, but all within normal limits.

[o_e_l_e_o]

but trying 1034 bits to get 94 words seems a bit off (and that other guy with 600 words too.)

You can also get non-standard lengths of seed phrases in Electrum by using custom word lists, although again I wouldn't recommend doing this since every additional "extra" thing you do makes it potentially harder to recover your seed phrase in the future. Having said that, you don't actually need to know the original word list to be able to recover from your custom seed phrase in this case.

The other reasons make sense too, but hiding wallets so they are not seen in the first place is probably a better idea.

I don't disagree, but passphrases are still a useful addition. Let's say you force Electrum to create a 24 word seed phrase. Your 24 word phrase will be harder to brute force than your 12 word phrase, but no one is going to be able to brute force either of them anyway. Even if you hide your wallet very well, you still need a back up of your seed phrase, and if someone finds it then your coins are gone regardless of the security of your seed phrase. A passphrase also gives you plausible deniability, which other methods of protecting your seed phrase, such as encryption or Shamir's Secret Sharing, don't provide.

[Dabs]

A little bit OT already, but I don't really have a way of using plausible deniability right now. I just make sure no one knows I have any. Any electronics that need to pass international borders are wiped or made so that they look "normal" and don't contain anything.

Although the last several times I went through airports, they don't bother looking at the laptop anymore. They don't bother turning it on or anything. I imagined that they would try to boot it and ask me to enter the password and I would boot it to the 2nd partition (dual boot, default to friendly looking Windows 10 with nothing in it except downloaded youtube videos). It never happened. hehe.

If you are a suspect or some bad guy is threatening you with a wrench, then you're probably doomed already. I just simply deny I have any as I "lost it all" ... probably a bad excuse but hey, "boating accident" meme maybe.

[Coin-Keeper]

I have never shared this here before but I have a way of maintaining LONG (extended word) passwords without having to remember them or write them down.  As long as I have my SEED I can always generate my hidden wallet password(s) to use if my Trezor/Ledger HW wallets with Electrum get hosed.  Its easy too.

Obviously I am not going to reveal my exact scheme but I can demonstrate the method here.  So, my hardware wallet is loaded and I have my SEED backed up perfectly and with multiple copies that I can get to if needed.  In other words my SEED is forever maintained and never lost.  SEED represents Math.  When you use math you ALWAYS get the same result.  Same numbers in and the solution will be exact every single time.  In wallets this is called deterministic.  You can go to any wallet software or hardware and when you enter your SEED the addresses generated will be exactly the same.  Every single time.  Why, its math.

My method knowing this reality.  When I need a hidden wallet or simply want an extended word phrase I use this math so I don't have to remember a 40 character passphrase.  Using Trezor (or any wallet software) and Electrum I create a hidden wallet on paper only, because I am NOT going to actually use it.  Lets say that I use the phrase "helicoptercrash" as my extended word while creating a wallet.  Trezor combined with Electrum will generate a wallet with coin addresses.  I can re-create this wallet millions of times and the addresses will always be exactly the same, again math!  Therefore I can use the consistency of math to know these addresses can be recovered by only using SEED and this simple phrase.  Now; what if I were to take BTC address #4 in this "dummy wallet" and consider that bc1 address as my extended word phrase for an actual wallet that I am going to use?  It works perfectly.  If you use bc1 format its 42 characters long, you don't have to remember it,  your extended word phrase is NEVER written down on paper therefore it cannot be discovered.  You can copy the address from your dummy wallet when needed and then paste it in to launch the Trezor/Electrum combo wallet.  Very secure and virtually nothing to remember.  Again, obviously my dummy passphrase used is not helicopter crash, etc.....  You could use only parts of an address OR add some little addition to the address.  Endless possibilities but the secret is making it SIMPLE so it limits any need for memory on your end.

I find it very important to advise you to NEVER use the "dummy wallet" for actual transactions.  Anyone attempting to use your SEED (if someone found it) would always see a blank wallet if by chance they entered helicoptercrash!  They would move on not realizing they hit "pay dirt" with the key to your treasure, LOL!

Your dummy wallet extended word passphrase can be simple and something you could use on every single set of SEED you use.  Simple is key.  Nothing to forget since Math is doing the heavy lifting.  Haven't lost any coins using this for years and years.  Enjoy!