Debunking the "Bitcoin is an environmental disaster" argument

[TangentC]

The whole ignoring Bitcoin PoW is an energy wasting issue.

I get it, how dare anyone claim anything about bitcoin is a problem.

But here is the problem, whether you see it coming or not.

https://forkast.news/inner-mongolia-shut-down-crypto-mining-china-bitcoin-miners/

China’s Inner Mongolia, once a hotbed of bitcoin mining, is now planning to ban all cryptocurrency mining farms and has asked them to shut down operations by the end of next month, forcing miners to move their equipment elsewhere in China or even overseas.

https://www.nelsonstar.com/news/nelson-council-bans-bitcoin-mining-industrial-scale-computing-from-city/

Nelson council bans bitcoin mining

https://earther.gizmodo.com/new-bill-would-ban-bitcoin-mining-across-new-york-state-1846828277

New Bill Would Ban Bitcoin Mining Across New York State for Three Years

Studies show that mining comes with a pretty hefty impact even as the bitcoin price keeps on surging.
(And in fact, that may be one reason for the surge in carbon emissions as speculators jump into the market.) While the likes of Jack Dorsey and Elon Musk have falsely claimed bitcoin is good, actually, for the climate, the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise.

Now you can make all of the comparisons , you want ,
but the facts are the people banning bitcoin mining really don't care what you or i think.

Is the ban global, nope. But the bans are increasing.

Different Energy Efficient Algorithms have been designed and available since 2013,
but bitcoiners don't want to give up their tried and true PoW.
That fine, until it's not fine , and that day is approaching faster than any of us know.

[stompix]

We hear people talk a lot about Carbon Emissions (btw we are all made of Carbon so think about that) for Bitcoin and confusing it with energy consumption, but various research are showing that between 39% to 72% of all energy used for mining Bitcoin is actually hydro energy.

Haha  
We just had one coal mine accident leading to a hashrate drop of 30% and you still quote that moron claiming 72% of energy coming from hydro?
Seriously, seeing how much they've screwed up with their estimation I would be amazed if not 39 but 7.2% would be actually coming from hydropower.
Some got the wake-up call although they still refuse the entire truth, some still live in dreamland.
https://decrypt.co/68591/flooded-coal-mine-highlights-chinese-bitcoin-miners-reliance-on-dirty-power

Remember the accident that happened in Xinjiang, Bitmain's first and rumors say largest mining facility is in Ordos, Inner Mongolia and you can guess what kind of fuel they burn there. As for that graph, don't forget about it when the chip shortage problem is fixed and mining gear can be produced as much as clients demand, remember we were at 130 exa when BTC was at 10k, . When all that gear hits the market you will have to forget all those fancy graphs and "studies" and embrace the obvious, as I said before: Bitcoin is not running on unicorn farts, but that's not a problem at all.

[dkbit98]

We just had one coal mine accident leading to a hashrate drop of 30% and you still quote that moron claiming 72% of energy coming from hydro?

Like I said, it's somewhere between 39% and 72% according to various research and you need to take this seriously because climate change global warming propaganda shit is just getting started.
CNN will be one of the first to report this news 24/7, this will include Bitcoin in bad image package, and I already see some crypto influencers claiming that Bitcoin should switch to Proof-of-stake because it's bad for environment, and btw I don't agree with this at all.
We can survive few incidents with hashrate drops but remember what happened with fees days and weeks after that with very high fees, and constant media fud would be like putting more petrol on fire.

[fillippone]

This is a great article.


How Much Energy Does Bitcoin Actually Consume?

Summary.  
Today, Bitcoin consumes as much energy as a small country. This certainly sounds alarming — but the reality is a little more complicated. The author discusses several common misconceptions surrounding the Bitcoin sustainability debate, and ultimately argues that it’s up to the crypto community to acknowledge and address environmental concerns, work in good faith to reduce Bitcoin’s carbon footprint, and ultimately demonstrate that the societal value that Bitcoin provides is worth the resources needed to sustain it.

This is the exact list of arguments I would pick to convince a sceptic about what bitcoin mining is about.

EDIT: I just saw @dkbit98 posted this a few post above. Thank you! Keeping this post because I want to make sure everyone see this!

[stompix]

Like I said, it's somewhere between 39% and 72% according to various research and you need to take this seriously because climate change global warming propaganda shit is just getting started.
CNN will be one of the first to report this news 24/7, this will include Bitcoin in bad image package, and I already see some crypto influencers claiming that Bitcoin should switch to Proof-of-stake because it's bad for environment, and btw I don't agree with this at all.

So we should strat our own propaganda that is just as toxic as theirs as it's based on lies too, how does that make you better than them?
Look where all the environment-friendly garbage describing Bitcoin as being greener than life has led us, into a shitty situation like this where there is no point of return, all those claims of clean power have been busted in a flash because of one freak accident. What are you going to say if this happens again in Inner Mongolia and another 30% of the hash rate goes down? To what LIE are you going to resort then?

Deal with reality and be objective, the manufacturing will return to full power and thousands of Asic are going to invade the market as mining is insanely profitable right now, when the electricity consumption will continue to grow as BTC value will continue also to do so, will you remember those graphs about BTC consuming less than 10 times what the banking industry does? Then less than 6, 3, half almost the same but still below...Well, we do consume 3 times more but BTC is better than banks, are you going to change your speech just like CNN does when they are caught red-handed?

All the people defending bitcoin consumption should treat it as normal, it's a damn business that consumes power and brings in $. Simple!
It's just the same, nothing special, just as datacenters consume power, just as gold mining does, just as coal mining does.
You don't need to defend it, nobody does, what is being defended here is not bitcoin's consumption is the cultist's ego!

We can survive few incidents with hashrate drops but remember what happened with fees days and weeks after that with very high fees, and constant media fud would be like putting more petrol on fire.

And where was the FUD?
Could you in reality send a transaction with 2sat/b fee and get a confirmation in 5 seconds? It was a fact, it wasn't FUD.

That was caused not by POW it was caused by some of the people who have a say in BTC's development who for god knows what reasons are stubborn as mules and can't even change the difficulty adjustment period to a shorter interval without a war of the roses going on. POW or POS or whatever the results would have been the same. If the difficulty adjustment would have been set for every 144 blocks none of that would have happened, but as usual, it's the simple solutions that are never applied.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I truly dislike PoS because it's really a Piece Of S**,  I can't understand how you can even claim true decentralization with that as it will inevitably lead to the same situation we have now in the world with central banks and commercial banks and same goes for proof of space or data or whatever, not even mentioning the masternodes crap.

[dkbit98]

So we should strat our own propaganda that is just as toxic as theirs as it's based on lies too, how does that make you better than them?

First you called that guy who wrote an article a moron, than you say that I lie and spread propaganda... I think you need to chill a bit, but I can understand if you are some eco warrior who wants to save the world like Greta Thunberg.

Look where all the environment-friendly garbage describing Bitcoin as being greener than life has led us, into a shitty situation like this where there is no point of return, all those claims of clean power have been busted in a flash because of one freak accident.

Nobody said that bitcoin is greener than life except maybe you in previous post, and we are nowhere near the point of no return, whatever that means.

What are you going to say if this happens again in Inner Mongolia and another 30% of the hash rate goes down? To what LIE are you going to resort then?

Here we go mister honesty talking about lies and dark winter scenarios again... I am not defending anyone or anything but I can think with my head.
You think that same thing can't happen if we are using greenest possible nuclear or hydro energy, and drop of hashrate can and will happen in future sooner or later.

are you going to change your speech just like CNN does when they are caught red-handed?

I didn't wrote any of this articles and sure I can change my opinion about anything, articles I read and not gospels set in stones, but maybe you should apply for new job of fortune teller if you are so good in predicting future, I am sure you will get lot of customers.
Can you please tell us Bitcoin price in 2022 and 2023, and when the world will end because of Bitcoin?  

You don't need to defend it, nobody does, what is being defended here is not bitcoin's consumption is the cultist's ego!

I am not defending anything but I like to hear different opinions and think with my own head, and not mainstream news or some random dude on forum.

And where was the FUD?

I was talking in future tense and something like this didn't happen yet, but maybe you can tell me exact day when this will start so I can prepare.

Could you in reality send a transaction with 2sat/b fee and get a confirmation in 5 seconds? It was a fact, it wasn't FUD.

It was 2sat/b today actually, but I don't expect that to be the case every day, and I am well aware how high fees can be on Bitcoin network.

[Obito]

Bitcoin looks like an environmental to the eyes of the stupid because it is a growing industry and they don't really know what they are talking about in terms of energy hierarchy, almost everyone that uses electricity in this world is using mainly fossil fuels as a main energy source with small amounts of hydro power, green energy and nuclear.

[stompix]

I think you need to chill a bit, but I can understand if you are some eco warrior who wants to save the world like Greta Thunberg.

Seems like you're not spending too much time reading what others say, let's go through a small recap:

That being said I don't know why some people are so focused on trying to portrait bitcoin as running on unicorn farts, so it's coal, good, what's the problem? The hospital I was born in ran on coal, from it to the school and kindergarten to which my child goes the hypermarket and the mall in our region everything powered by coal, should I run to a cave and commit suicide because of it?

I assume that's what Greta would say, right?

Here we go mister honesty talking about lies and dark winter scenarios again... I am not defending anyone or anything but I can think with my head.

You see, this is cultism, instead of answering why do you still cling to those numbers which are obviously false you resort to empty words.
So, if by chance Inner Mongolia goes through the same scenario and 20-30% of the hashrate goes down showing another chuck is powered by coal, making it close to 50% just in China, would you still stand by those studies?

You think that same thing can't happen if we are using greenest possible nuclear or hydro energy, and drop of hashrate can and will happen in future sooner or later.

Irrelevant, we're not talking about what the effects are, we're talking about what the accident unveilled.

I didn't wrote any of this articles and sure I can change my opinion about anything, articles I read and not gospels set in stones, but maybe you should apply for new job of fortune teller if you are so good in predicting future, I am sure you will get lot of customers.
Can you please tell us Bitcoin price in 2022 and 2023, and when the world will end because of Bitcoin?  

Yawn!!!! Derailing the discussion again. That's all you've got?

I am not defending anything but I like to hear different opinions and think with my own head, and not mainstream news or some random dude on forum.

Same here, so, who are you again? Bottom line you haven't understand anything of what I've said, too bad, but that's the cultist way, whoever disagrees with even a single opinion should be hanged. You like hearing opinions but only the opinions you like to hear, yeah, that's the way of doing non-biased research, lol.
PS, nice that you didn't address any number this time, at least this is a good sign.

[dkbit98]

cultist's ego!

that's the cultist way

You see, this is cultism

Bring it on, I see you are very good at insulting other people and name calling, so one more sticker for me being a cultist is nothing new for you, and I see no point of talking more with someone who thinks that he is always right about everything.

Have a nice day.

[acener]

All this debate and very informative thread hurt my head too much LOL.
I don't really understand it that much but I know that even without crypto the environment would still be fvcked up,
It just happen that crypto did add up a little bit to it.
That's it I'm done I couldn't debate with you guys I would just sit back and relax reading this topic.

[stompix]

~

I'm truly disappointed, we've had different points of view on events in the past but you were far more level-headed on those, probably because you genuinely believed in your own arguments, this time you've chosen to ignore numbers and facts and directly lash out. Calling names? How about you re-read what you've told me on the last page and with whom you've compared me just to realized one post later how wrong you are and then what you do? No more numbers, no more arguments, it's time to pack, call the other person a moron, and leave.

As for your impression that I think so highly about myself, every time when people asked me then what do I think it should be done I've said this

I stated numerous times in the mining board and in some other discussions, I have no $^^&& idea.

I know we have an issue (not going to call it a problem anymore), I  know this will only get worse till the next halving, and no, I don't have a single clue how to make things better. Acknowledging facts don't make you a hater, it simply allows you to have an unbiased view on something.

[fillippone]

Can we guys just stay calm and in topic please?
I like constructive ideas and dicussions, not ad personam arguments.

[fillippone]

In case you have been living under a rock:



https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1392602041025843203?s=21


Please someone forward this thread to Elon Musk.
First time I have been sincerely disappointed by the man.

[icopress]

First time I have been sincerely disappointed by the man.

I'm not at all surprised ... I'm pretty sure that the board of directors showed Elon where he belongs, pointing out how easy it is to remove him from the post of general director. Perhaps some of the Gray Cardinals are receiving first-hand news, and knowing that Musk is facing a lawsuit based on spring manipulations, it was decided to distance himself from everything related to cryptocurrency (in order to preserve the status quo). Perhaps there is another reason, but in any case, I am convinced that Musk's statement is just an excuse, (the most interesting thing is that he posted this tweet ahead of the rainy season in China). 

[finaleshot2016]

I came back here in this thread because of Elon Musk ditching bitcoin as a payment method for Tesla. First of all, this thread should be pinned or must be seen since most of us here support bitcoin, and that's why we are here. The information that can be seen here is very important, comparing BTC to other things that have a massive consumption and being wasted.

https://twitter.com/BTC_Archive/status/1391747174950752260

I watched Michael Saylor's interview and he debunked this energy misconception in under a minute. Since the op is tl;dr, anyone who doesn't understand what those numbers mean should watch the video.

In case you have been living under a rock:

!~

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1392602041025843203?s=21


Please someone forward this thread to Elon Musk.
First time I have been sincerely disappointed by the man.

https://twitter.com/MMCrypto/status/1392869357731069956

Elon Musk didn't DYOR. lmao  

and here's a report of coinshares about BTC using renewable energy. https://coinshares.com/research/bitcoin-mining-network-june-2019

[bryant.coleman]

First time I have been sincerely disappointed by the man.

I'm not at all surprised ... I'm pretty sure that the board of directors showed Elon where he belongs, pointing out how easy it is to remove him from the post of general director. Perhaps some of the Gray Cardinals are receiving first-hand news, and knowing that Musk is facing a lawsuit based on spring manipulations, it was decided to distance himself from everything related to cryptocurrency (in order to preserve the status quo). Perhaps there is another reason, but in any case, I am convinced that Musk's statement is just an excuse, (the most interesting thing is that he posted this tweet ahead of the rainy season in China). 

If that was the case, then he would have explicitly stated that Tesla will refuse to accept anymore cryptocurrency payments. But his latest tweet was only directed at Bitcoin. And furthermore, it claimed that they are looking for a cryptocurrency which has a lower carbon footprint when compared to Bitcoin. If your argument was true, then there is no point in Elon tweeting about the alternative cryptocurrency. For me, it is very clear. He either wants to create his own cryptocurrency, or want to pump some crypto such as Dogecoin. 

[fillippone]

Another great article debunking Camilo Mora article, written by Paul Veradittakit from Pantera Capital.


Bitcoin Energy Consumption

For once, I will report here the conclusion of the study:

Being a climate-conscious Bitcoin owner.

As retail and institutional investors increasingly incorporate Environmental, Social, and Corporate Governance (ESG) considerations into their investment theses, I’ve had multiple people ask me about the moral consequences of buying Bitcoin. My personal perspective on Bitcoin’s energy consumption, to summarize the preceding sections, is as follows:

• It is undeniable that Bitcoin consumes a large amount of energy, which, in the short-term, will add some carbon to the atmosphere. However, it will leave far smaller of a footprint than most estimates assume.
• Energy is not “wasted,” it is used to power the most secure blockchain on Earth, allowing for second- and third-layer innovations that expand financial access for billions of people. This is enough of a social good, in my opinion, to justify an expenditure of energy.
• The debate around energy quantity is not particularly useful; instead, we should focus on energy types. Bitcoin already uses large amounts of renewable energy and, as the “energy buyer of last resort,” could help propel us to a carbon-neutral future.

Even if you disagree, one way to dodge the energy consumption debate entirely is just to purchase carbon offsets; that way, you can ensure your purchase of Bitcoin is carbon-neutral (or even negative). As we’ve seen, calculating a precise amount of carbon emitted from your personal engagement with Bitcoin is difficult—it’s not as simple as dividing hashpower by the number of transactions—but some good faith contribution (e.g., 10% of the value of your BTC holdings) can go a long way. Ninepoint, a Canada-based Bitcoin ETF, announced this month that they were purchasing offsets for their holdings. If you’re interested, I’d suggest using Nori, but there are other simple ways to purchase small carbon offsets.

On a final note, I hope to shift the discussion slightly. Instead of judging the uses of energy, which is a strict and selectively-applied standard, let’s focus on making energy production as clean as possible. Purchase offsets. Support renewable energy projects. Vote for a carbon tax. The list goes on. But don’t make Bitcoin the enemy: it only distracts us from completing the difficult work of creating a sustainable future.

[ranochigo]

Please someone forward this thread to Elon Musk.
First time I have been sincerely disappointed by the man.

If you really think Elon Musk actually didn't consider about the possible environmental impacts of Bitcoin mining, then I would strongly urge you to reconsider again. Bitcoin mining is energy intensive (no one can dispute that), if he doesn't find any point in accepting Bitcoin payment and chooses to disassociates himself with it while simultaneously advocating for Bitcoin to shift to a less energy intensive algorithm, then there is nothing much you can do.

Don't bother talking to/about someone who says his own company is overvalued. Anyways, back on the thread, would it be possible to add something about ewaste in the topic, I find it so heavily centered on electrical usage that any other environmental impact isn't really mentioned.

[fillippone]

Anyways, back on the thread, would it be possible to add something about ewaste in the topic, I find it so heavily centered on electrical usage that any other environmental impact isn't really mentioned.

This is something I have been researching for, but I didn't fin any article "good enough" for this.
Please let me know if you can find a good one, or for sure I will ring your bell when I find one.

[fillippone]

Today is a great day, after Pantera Capital's article this one from Galaxy Digital:
 

On Bitcoin’s Energy Consumption: A Quantitative Approach to a Subjective Question

Is the Bitcoin network’s electricity consumption an acceptable use of energy? This question has been debated since the early days of the network. Yet despite the numerous published articles and analyses, the debate rages on, typically re-emerging during Bitcoin bull runs.
Bitcoin is a fundamentally novel technology that is not a precise substitute for any one legacy system. Bitcoin is not solely a settlement layer, not solely a store of value, and not solely a medium of exchange. There is no denying that the Bitcoin network consumes a substantial amount of energy, but this energy consumption is what makes it so robust and secure.
Given Bitcoin’s transparency, it is easy to estimate Bitcoin’s energy usage. This results in frequent criticism of Bitcoin, but these critiques are rarely levied against other traditional industries. Bitcoin is most often compared to the traditional banking system (for payments, savings, and settlement) and gold (as a non-sovereign store of value). But the energy usage of these industries is opaque as they do not publicly disclose their energy footprints. If we want to have an honest conversation about Bitcoin’s energy use, it seems appropriate to consider it in light of the industries it is most often compared to.
In this article, we begin by trying to understand the relevant facts around Bitcoin’s energy footprint, and then compare it to the gold and banking industries. Though these comparisons provide interesting context, they are inherently imperfect.
Although the magnitude of different industries’ energy usage can be estimated and compared, the question is still fundamentally subjective. Views on the Bitcoin network’s importance vary, but Bitcoin’s properties do not. Anyone can use Bitcoin. Anyone can hold bitcoins for themselves. And Bitcoin transactions can provide probabilistically final settlement in an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year.
These features can offer financial freedom to people around the world who may not have the luxury of a stable and accessible financial infrastructure. The network can benefit the energy sector by creating perfect use cases for intermittent and excess energy. And the network will only scale further if network adoption warrants it.
Throughout this piece, we reference several in-depth calculations. The methodology and calculations can be found here.