Safe Seed? What is the cheapest fire resistant seed phrase material to write on?

[yat97]

I'm thinking of stenciling aluminum? Maybe getting a soda can, cutting a square out. stenciling the phrase on that. So it's waterproof and fireproof.

Any other ideas? Like. I know they sell stainless steel ones with fancy letters you can just put in order for stuff but they're pretty pricey. Me being poor living in my moms basement would like the cheapest, but also most effective thing possible.

Especially considering I have like .... 3 wallets, and will be adding some more later on.


To me my idea sounds like a sound plan. But... anyone have any concerns?

I like the can idea because it's cheap... And... I... think??? it would survive a fire??? ((anyone have any info on this?)) but it's certainly waterproof and better than just paper. If aluminum would melt at average house fire temps, which soft cheap metal wouldn't? Copper or brass?

It's cheap enough to make at least two to keep per wallet and store in the different location idea. which so far will just be in a safe in our house, and the other in the lock box at my families storage facility? Idk about that one tho. I feel vulnerable if the key is away somewhere even if in a locked garage in a lock box. So maybe not. I'll just put it in two different places here. So maybe one in the attic, the other in the safe? Idk. I dont think most burglars would look through books in an attack would they? I know the safe would be a target, if they pried it off the floor, and cracked into it. my only hope would be they wouldn't know what it is and just ignore it. Idk how smart criminals are getting. Thinking of maybe trying to make a poem out of it. So they wont really know what it is but I would. Idk...


Anyone have any ideas on safe storage of the recovery seed?

[DdmrDdmr]

You can probably get some pretty good pointers on this rather long thread versing basically on the same matter:
Where do you store your seed?.

Probably the best contingency should cover using multiple sites, bearing in mind that on these sites the recovery process should not be trivial, were the seeds to fall into third-party hands for whatever reason (i.e. if you keep it at someone else’s facility, whatever the means of storage, they shouldn’t be in plain text with no additional protection layer).

[o_e_l_e_o]

To me my idea sounds like a sound plan. But... anyone have any concerns?

Aluminum is a terrible choice of metal. It is weak, it is malleable, it has a melting point far below temperatures reached in an average house fire, and it is not particularly resistant to corrosion.

If aluminum would melt at average house fire temps, which soft cheap metal wouldn't? Copper or brass?

Here is a chart of the melting point of various metals: https://www.steelforge.com/literature/metal-melting-ranges/
An average house fire can reach up to around 1000 Celsius / 1800 Fahrenheit.
Jameson Lopp has a good summary of the various metals here: https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
The TL;DR is that the best performing and yet still affordable metal is stainless steel. You should be able to get a small square of this from any local hardware store for a few bucks.

I feel vulnerable if the key is away somewhere even if in a locked garage in a lock box. So maybe not.

You could always consider encrypting your off-site back up first, or using a long and complex passphrase in addition to your seed phrase. That way if that back up is compromised, your coins are not immediately lost.

[aoluain]

Its one thing obtaining an exotic metal with a high melting point, its another thing working with it,
stamping it and drilling it, specialist tools would almost certainly be required.

I use 4mm and 5mm Stainless steel, I wroth a post about it last year,

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5214634.msg53513738#msg53513738

cant quote the original post I made so here are some screenshots below.

[20kevin20]

Stainless steel. Soda cans are not only of a weak material but also very thin imo. If you want something to last, you'd probably want at least 1.5-2mm in thickness. I don't think it's very hard to literally distort and destroy a soda can square sheet, nor would it be to melt it.

Perhaps you could purchase stainless steel washers and stamp a word on each of it (and the number of the word so that you don't mix them up) to create your own stainless steel seed-capsule.

[SFR10]

So it's waterproof and fireproof.

Any other ideas?
~Snipped~
Anyone have any ideas on safe storage of the recovery seed?

I almost forgot about someone that was working on a similar issue but thanks to your topic, that's no longer the case.

• There's "Shieldfolio" that takes care of the former but when it comes to the fireproof part, it's still on the trial and error stage ^{[it's best to contact them directly in regards to that]}.
  ^{- I'm not sure how cheap you want it to be but it might come in handy.}
  
  

  • I'm currently working on a Multi-layer fireproof bag at the moment, that can withstand the heat comparable to metal plates. I have a prototype finished that will be testing soon. Just to let you know Ive tried other bags but found out theyre not safe in a direct fire situation. It's crazy how these bags get sold on amazon, with people thinking their safe, but in reality they're not. Here is a video on a test I made.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3J9XEC8SZ3ZGH?ref=va_cr_lb
    

  • A thread about them: [WTK] Stonebook: Secure Notebook for crypto
  • Twitter account
  • It also has a bunch of videos on various platforms.

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

Jameson Lopp has some reviews for metal sheet providers.

Metal Bitcoin Seed Storage Reviews
Why Stress Test Metal Seed Storage Devices? and Stress Test Methodology

Metal sheets can be expensive and you can consider water-proof or fire-proof paper. How to make WaterProof Paper or FireProof Paper

[dkbit98]

I'm thinking of stenciling aluminum? Maybe getting a soda can, cutting a square out. stenciling the phrase on that. So it's waterproof and fireproof.

Don't do it. Aluminum is a bad material to be used for keeping seed phrase and has low melting point 463-671 c (865-1240 f) and it is not good even if you alter in in some way or make an alloy.

Copper has similar properties like Gold, it is stronger and cheaper than Silver and you can buy cheap copper plates online or in your local shop.

Stainless Steel is also great with better properties and higher melting point, it is mostly used for creating metal Seed Storages but it is more expensive than Copper.

Copper plates like this can be purchased for $5 to $10, or you can purchase one of the top rated copper plates Safe Seed tested by Jameson Lopp.

[hugeblack]

The problem with aluminium is that it is ductile, meaning that it cannot bear the knock, and thus the risk of losing part of the wallet's words is higher than the possibility of burning it.
The best metal is stainless steel. You need to cut it and do a hammer, but I prefer a piece of paper and put it in any water/fire proof case.

check some examples:

Max MAX002S IP67 Rated Accessory Tool Box

PORTABLE TRAVEL SAFE BOX CYLINDER LOCK KEYS

[NeuroticFish]

For OP question the best answer is stainless steel. No doubt.
But paper, maybe laminated, maybe in waterproof/weatherproof capsules, stored in multiple geographically separated places can do the job with less effort.

[mike2077]

Aluminum sounds easier to work with.  What about those fire safe bags + aluminum sheet?  Seems like easy and fireproof enough.

[mk4]

What about those fire safe bags + aluminum sheet?  Seems like easy and fireproof enough.

Never tried any of these fire safe bags, but especially if you're going to buy an "affordable" one, you might want to buy 2 and test it out yourself first. You definitely wouldn't want to end up unintentionally buying a bootleg one and end up losing your seed when disaster strikes lol.

[ranochigo]

Aluminum sounds easier to work with.  What about those fire safe bags + aluminum sheet?  Seems like easy and fireproof enough.

Aluminium is fairly weak and oxidises. No such thing as fireproof, only fire resistant.

That being said, if you're doing any etching, try to find some forms of alloy. Most non-alloys are fairly soft and have a comparably lower melting point. If the security is of any concern to you, you can probably sandwich two plates of metal together with the seeds facing each other. If not, there are commercially available solutions which are not so eye-catching.

[yat97]

Thank you everyone for your answers.

Is stainless that much better than copper?

How about brass?

I guess I really ought to get a hammer chisel set.

[ranochigo]

Is stainless that much better than copper?

How about brass?

I guess I really ought to get a hammer chisel set.

Brass will be a better choice than copper as it is more corrosion resistant.

Brass will still corrode more than stainless steel and has a lower melting point and softer. In Jlopp's tests most of the higher rated ones uses stainless steel or titanium except one which used copper and you can see that it corroded quite badly.

[PrimeNumber7]

i would recommend you tiny fireproof safe instead,

This is good advice. Use a fire safe that has a fire rating that you are comfortable with. If for whatever reason you need to create a new seed, you can simply open your safe and store your backup in your safe, as opposed to having to procure additional whatever type of metal you are using.

[o_e_l_e_o]

How about brass?

Brass is superior to aluminum, but not quite as good as stainless steel, all in terms of corrosion resistance, melting point, and yield and tensile strength. It's not a bad choice, but you shouldn't really have any problem sourcing a piece of stainless steel for not much more expensive than a similarly sized piece of brass.

Archaeologists find clay plates with inscriptions that survived even after Vesuvius eruption.

Sure, but the number of clay artifacts which have been destroyed or damaged beyond recognition or usefulness vastly outnumber those found intact. Clay is also a catch all term for a huge variety of different compounds which can have widely differing properties. Most will be fire resistant as you say, but most will also be incredibly brittle, and will break or shatter with even relatively minor impacts, which could lead to complete loss of your seed phrase. I wouldn't recommend.


The most important thing to remember regardless of how you back up your seed phrase is to have more than once back up. I only use paper for the majority of my back ups, and I am completely unconcerned if one is damaged, destroyed, burnt, incinerate, waterlogged, etc., since always have at least one more in a geographically separate location.

[dkbit98]

Aluminum sounds easier to work with.  What about those fire safe bags + aluminum sheet?  Seems like easy and fireproof enough.

I checked some of those fire safe bags and guess what, they are also made from aluminum foil mixed with some pvc, so I don't think it's a good idea to wrap aluminum with more aluminum.
Some of them have Fiberglass and that is good material for isolation and have melting point around 2500 F  or 1370 C.
Fiberglass is cheap btw and you can find it anywhere.

Thank you everyone for your answers.

Is stainless that much better than copper?

How about brass?

Here are some melting points for mentioned metals, but you need to calculate the price and then you can judge for yourself:

Aluminum 1220 F  or 660 C
Aluminum Alloys 865-1240 F  or 463-671 C
Brass 1650-1880 F or 900-1024 C
Copper 1983 F  or 1084 C
Stainless Steel  2750 F  or 1510 C

Both the cheapest and fire resistant is the clay.

I am sure that I can very easy destroy any clay object including one with backup phrase with my hammer and turn it into dust

[Bravehash]

I'm thinking of stenciling aluminum? Maybe getting a soda can, cutting a square out. stenciling the phrase on that. So it's waterproof and fireproof.

Any other ideas? Like. I know they sell stainless steel ones with fancy letters you can just put in order for stuff but they're pretty pricey. Me being poor living in my moms basement would like the cheapest, but also most effective thing possible.

Especially considering I have like .... 3 wallets, and will be adding some more later on.


To me my idea sounds like a sound plan. But... anyone have any concerns?

I like the can idea because it's cheap... And... I... think??? it would survive a fire??? ((anyone have any info on this?)) but it's certainly waterproof and better than just paper. If aluminum would melt at average house fire temps, which soft cheap metal wouldn't? Copper or brass?

It's cheap enough to make at least two to keep per wallet and store in the different location idea. which so far will just be in a safe in our house, and the other in the lock box at my families storage facility? Idk about that one tho. I feel vulnerable if the key is away somewhere even if in a locked garage in a lock box. So maybe not. I'll just put it in two different places here. So maybe one in the attic, the other in the safe? Idk. I dont think most burglars would look through books in an attack would they? I know the safe would be a target, if they pried it off the floor, and cracked into it. my only hope would be they wouldn't know what it is and just ignore it. Idk how smart criminals are getting. Thinking of maybe trying to make a poem out of it. So they wont really know what it is but I would. Idk...


Anyone have any ideas on safe storage of the recovery seed?

Point of correction

Soda can is not fire resistance, if the fire and heat is much the soda can will burn beyond recognition, the best bet is stainless steel, I carve my recovery seed for trust wallet on a stainless steel and keep inside my safe locker