[Unlocked with new finding] Understanding Service Section rule.

[AB de Royse777]

Reason to unlock.
New discussion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331196.msg57041698#msg57041698

I am running a signature campaign which is paying 20% in BTC and 80% in their native token. I used to know that a campaign paying with BTC will be in the service section, so initially I posted it on the service board. But today I noticed it was moved to the Bounties (Altcoins) section. I already sent a PM to hilariousandco just to check if this was a mistake, or I got the idea wrong.

If I can remember properly then I think I have seen some service which were paying partially in BTC and were listed on the Service section. Not sure if I got it wrong. Let me know your thoughts.


Cheers,

[suchmoon]

I think you should just wait for hilarious to respond but since you created this thread I'm gonna put my 2 satoshis in 

20% in BTC sounds like an attempt to create a loophole for a predominantly alt-based campaign to use the Bitcoin board. If it was e.g. 50:50 maybe you'd have a better case, although even then you'd be at the mercy of moderator discretion.

[dkbit98]

I don't remember seeing any campaign in Services section that paid only partially in Bitcoin and mostly in other tokens.

Possible solution you may have is to separate this campaign in two parts, one can be in Services and paying only in Bitcoin, and second part can pay rewards only in tokens and be in altcoin section.

[isaac_clarke22]

Not sure if rules had changed, but back in 2017 I joined campaigns like this that was posted in Services section. They also paid with their own tokens along with BTC.
[SIG] DIMPAY ICO Signature Campaign [CLOSED]

Skimming through old threads in Services section, I found these also partially paying BTC and altcoins, though I am not sure if these paid their tokens because I wasn't a participant.

• GRAFT - Credit Card and Crypto Payment Processing Network | Signature & Avatar Campaign | [ENDED]
• ≈≈ SHIPCHAIN Signature and Avatar Campaign ≈≈ [CLOSED]
  

Still let's wait for hilariousandco's answer to your question, OP.

[decodx]

Since the Services section is only for bitcoin campaigns, I believe the main focus here is on the bitcoin/altcoin payout ratio. Moderators must draw the line at some point.

I don't believe it is questionable to pay out the bonus in altcoin currency, but the bulk of the payment should be in bitcoin.

[acroman08]

sorry, Royce77 for asking another question on your thread but would a signature campaign be moved to the altcoin board when the payment changed from BTC to XRP? because I remember casineos paying with XRP when I was in their campaign but if I remember correctly they used to pay in BTC then changed it to XRP due to high fees when transacting with bitcoin.

[sheenshane]

I don't remember seeing any campaign in Services section that paid only partially in Bitcoin and mostly in other tokens.

There is, but that was back then year 2017 when ICOs projects are very promising.  You will find on this thread paying a small portion of token but not Bitcoin.

I tend to agree with suchmoon said, the 20% paying Bitcoin while the rest are altcoin was might considered altcoin based signature campaign.

It would be better if you will make it a 50:50 ratio for Bitcoin and token signature payment, or a large percentage is Bitcoin than the token allocation.
Anyway, just wait for the response of MOD hilariousandco.

Just my two sats.

[JohnBitCo]

Services (child board of Goods) - Services provided/demanded on-forum for Bitcoin. If you are providing/demanding services on another site (e.g. have a hosting site), it doesn't belong here.

Services section is for the services provided for bitcoins. So, by this definition if you want to list your campaign here, the major portion of the payment should be in bitcoins.

[PrimeNumber7]

I think it would be okay for the thread to be in the bitcoin services sub as per the below:

<>
14. All altcoin related discussion belong in the Alternate cryptocurrencies and its child boards. [3][4][e]
<>
14. This includes services, trades, discussion, speculation, mining and any other content related to altcoins. Trades that include an altcoin and Bitcoin is OK (except for an exchange between the two). For example, a thread named "Buying Bitcoins and Litecoins for bank transfer" can stay in the general boards.

<>

As a philosophical question, I am curious why you are only paying a portion of the payment in bitcoin. Was your intent to create/exploit a loophole in the rules to allow your thread to be in a more prominent section? Or is there some other reason? If it is the former, the admins may be reluctant to allow your thread to be moved back to the bitcoin sub.

If we start to see more of these split payment type threads, it may be a good idea to implement a rule requiring a minimum percentage of payment be in bitcoin when the OP explicitly says payment will be in bitcoin + an altcoin.   

Off Topic - I also want to point out that your "escrow" implementation is not actually protecting the campaign participants. If whoever is behind the campaign decides to not pay the participants, they would have the ability to do so. They would still lose out on the coin being held in the multisig address, but the participants would still be without payment.

[AB de Royse777]

I have a response from hilariousandco. Not posting everything in public since it's a PM response, but it turns out that it created a confusion and I would love to hear from that mod to line out a clear thought in it, if possible please. We are seeing two actions for one rule.

Maybe it needs a clear direction that x% will have to be Bitcoin paying, so the advertisers can have a clear understanding of what strategy they need to take for their campaigns.

Edit:

@PrimeNumber7, JohnBitCo, suchmoon as a campaign manage when I am taking a campaign in hand, I have two major concerns to have in consideration.
1. Protect the members who are joining my campaign. Assure that they get paid at least a portion if not full. So I either take risk on my shoulder in full or ask to escrow a portion of the payment. It could be for one or two weeks.
2. Give the best of the budget to the service who are advertising their project in the community.

The dev wanted to have an altcoin campaign but I literally forced them to have a portion in bitcoin so that I can assure at-least a portion that is getting paid to the members. That was the plan for having 20% in bitcoin and 80% in their native token.

Since there are no such rules of having a minimum percent of the payment should be in bitcoin to have a campaign in the service section, my interpretation was that it will be in the service section.

[hilariousandco]

Here's what I said via PM:

Well it's hard to say and is open to interpretation I guess. I didn't move it but I see it was reported as "Payment 20% Bitcoin and 80% Altcoin, since Altcoin payment is bigger than Bitcoin, Move this to Bounty section" so I can see why. I'm 50/50 on it. Since it pays at least some bitcoin you can argue it can reside there but I also see the argument for the opposite since it pays mostly in an alt.

I didn't see you created this thread but I asked about it in the staff board for clarification.

I think you should just wait for hilarious to respond but since you created this thread I'm gonna put my 2 satoshis in  

20% in BTC sounds like an attempt to create a loophole for a predominantly alt-based campaign to use the Bitcoin board. If it was e.g. 50:50 maybe you'd have a better case, although even then you'd be at the mercy of moderator discretion.

Yeah, could be. Hopefully campaigns don't start paying 1% in bitcoin or offering a small bitcoin bonus just to bend the rules.

I don't remember seeing any campaign in Services section that paid only partially in Bitcoin and mostly in other tokens.

Possible solution you may have is to separate this campaign in two parts, one can be in Services and paying only in Bitcoin, and second part can pay rewards only in tokens and be in altcoin section.

There have been some that have paid out in both but not sure of the ratio. You can have threads in both boards if you accept or pay in both alts and bitcoin so technically it probably should be allowed but this is a unique case I guess.

[AB de Royse777]

Thanks for posting it, and also thanks for asking a clarification on the staff board.

Edit:

You can have threads in both boards if you accept or pay in both alts and bitcoin so technically it probably should be allowed but this is a unique case I guess.

The other day I was asking a very similar question to Hhampuz, and it seemed he was also in doubt about it. From the discussion his understanding was something like when it's not paid out in bitcoin then you post it in altcoin board.

Having 1% or even 5% is obviously a clear attempt to use the loophole. This clearly does mean that the campaign manager is not doing it to protect a portion of payment is secured for the participants.

Here again when the rule has no percentage mentioned, how would we put a line for an x%?

[LoyceV]

Here again when the rule has no percentage mentioned, how would we put a line for an x%?

If you remove the token "payment" and cut the pay rates by a factor 5, it can stay on the Services board

Off Topic - I also want to point out that your "escrow" implementation is not actually protecting the campaign participants. If whoever is behind the campaign decides to not pay the participants, they would have the ability to do so. They would still lose out on the coin being held in the multisig address, but the participants would still be without payment.

I noticed that too: 2/2 multisig is terrible, it should have been 2/3.

[virasog]

The dev wanted to have an altcoin campaign but I literally forced them to have a portion in bitcoin so that I can assure at-least a portion that is getting paid to the members. That was the plan for having 20% in bitcoin and 80% in their native token.

I just wished that all the managers think in this way or there is some rule that you can't post a bounty thread unless there is some payment in bitcoin.
Starting a campaign/bounty by paying only in their native token which is not yet on the exchange or dex , cost the company nothing and its just a free advertisement.
Little off-topic but Bounty hunters don't care where the thread is listed, they only care if they could get something real in return of their work.

[decodx]

Here again when the rule has no percentage mentioned, how would we put a line for an x%?

Percentage could be a bit difficult to define when it comes to unlisted tokens of arbitrary value. I understand there may be pre-sale token price, but we've seen how this has been manipulated in the past.

If you remove the token "payment" and cut the pay rates by a factor 5, it can stay on the Services board

Yeah. But, on that point, if the token "payment" is included as an added bonus, I believe it could stay in the Services section. However, he would still have to cut the pay rates by a factor 5.

Little off-topic but Bounty hunters don't care where the thread is listed, they only care if they could get something real in return of their work.

Bounty hunters may not, but that does not apply to all forum members. I bet many don't even follow the Altcoins section.

[hilariousandco]

Having 1% or even 5% is obviously a clear attempt to use the loophole. This clearly does mean that the campaign manager is not doing it to protect a portion of payment is secured for the participants.

Here again when the rule has no percentage mentioned, how would we put a line for an x%?

Didn't get any response from any admins or other globals yet but two other mods proposed/agreed that it should be a 50% threshold which kinda makes sense. So if it pays 50% in bitcoin then it could belong in there. I guess we'll have to wait for what theymos says before it becomes a rule/guideline but the majority of what coin it pays in makes sense just to stop people offering a tiny bit of bitcoin to skirt the rule.

[AB de Royse777]

Didn't get any response from any admins or other globals yet but two other mods proposed/agreed that it should be a 50% threshold which kinda makes sense. So if it pays 50% in bitcoin then it could belong in there. I guess we'll have to wait for what theymos says before it becomes a rule/guideline but the majority of what coin it pays in makes sense just to stop people offering a tiny bit of bitcoin to skirt the rule.

Thanks again. Since the concentration is on the percentage, I guess I have a point now. On the board please make this proposal.

I think for Service board make it 100% in BTC and no alt will be allowed. Not even any bonus etc.

Take my campaign as an example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331069.0
According to the title, "Upto $100/w" and in the body "20% payment will be in equivalent BTC and 80% in $WAKER". What if the title changes to, "Upto $20/w+additional tokens worth up to $80" and in the body instead of "20% payment..." we have
10 X Member : $6 BTC + 649 WAKER per week
.
.
10 X Legendary : $20 BTC + 2162  WAKER per week

See where am I going? Instead of saying $100/w, it's saying $20 in BTC makes it a BTC paying campaign and additional token are just some bonus. How are you going to apply rules then without creating confusion?

The only probable solution is to allow only BTC paying campaign and there will be no alt at all, not even free token as bonus. Any alt as payment or any other form, no matter what percent or anything, it will be in the altcoin section.

[Findingnemo]

See where am I going? Instead of saying $100/w, it's saying $20 in BTC makes it a BTC paying campaign and additional token are just some bonus. How are you going to apply rules then without creating confusion?

The only probable solution is to allow only BTC paying campaign and there will be no alt at all, not even free token as bonus. Any alt as payment or any other form, no matter what percent or anything, it will be in the altcoin section.

That's a smart move, so yeah any campaign which includes altcoins or tokens into the payments as part of payment or rewards or bonus should be move to bounties section to avoid abusing the rule. But I remember it there are some campaigns paid few dollars in BTC but major in their tokens a long way back to operate it from service section.

[AB de Royse777]

Bump!
Looking for an update.

If the rule is not 100% bitcoin payment is allowed in the Service section then this signature thread do not deserve Bounties (Altcoins) section, but it deserves the Service section. In fact having this campaign in Bounties (Altcoins) section means you are allowing a bitcoin payment service in Bounties (Altcoins) section :-D

Payment up to $20 is BTC and additional up to $80 bonus in native token literally makes it a bitcoin paying signature campaign where the payment is up to $20/w

[hilariousandco]

Bump!
Looking for an update.

If the rule is not 100% bitcoin payment is allowed in the Service section then this signature thread do not deserve Bounties (Altcoins) section, but it deserves the Service section. In fact having this campaign in Bounties (Altcoins) section means you are allowing a bitcoin payment service in Bounties (Altcoins) section :-D

Payment up to $20 is BTC and additional up to $80 bonus in native token literally makes it a bitcoin paying signature campaign where the payment is up to $20/w

For now and unless theymos says otherwise I think we should just stick to whatever it pays more in, or if there's some confusion about percentages with bonuses or whatnot if it pays in an alt then it just goes in the alt board.