Let’s debate stock market is a zero sum

[SaiyanSS3]

I’m willing to debate stock market is a zero sum and bank is running the zero sum ponzi game called stock market and derivative market.

Discuss:

What is ponzi
What is zero sum
What is derivative
Why, when how, who is the winner or loser of this ponzi

[1715225199]

1715225199

[1715225199]

1715225199

[SaiyanSS3]

Definition
Zero sum, a zero sum can be expressed as a equation

1 - 1 = 0

It’s correct, the zero sum resulting in zero doesn’t matter what is the causes, whether the causes is “1” or it’s a “2” or it’s a “yes or no” or it’s a string, the result would always return to zero. What it entail is, there is no new value is created from the zero sum, it’s not the same as 1+1 = 2 which create a new value or it create more value from this operation, in the other word, zero sum do not create any value, in the real world, zero sum take from someone and give it to someone else. Whereas in a non zero sum world, we create from nothing and give it everyone else, which create value for everyone.

Zero sum
1-1=0

Non zero sum
1+1=2

Zero sum is believed to destroy prosperity

Non zero sum is believed to create prosperity.

[ninkdwi]

if you want to debate a certain topic, you should first have to make an initial idea to provoke controversy over the argument according to what you understand. instead of asking what, how, when, and why.

if you really want to argue then present a context of understanding from your point of view, then it can be called dissection.

[amishmanish]

Stock market is not zero sum. Youi need to understand the relationship between a stock and the company's earnings.

The price of a stock is generally thought of as the price investors are willing to pay for per unit earning of a company. A companies earnings depend on several parameters like performance, market conditions and resources available with it. Investors in the market use the available information about these parameters and an expectation on future earnings is created.

Based on the expectations of future earnings and confidence, the market collectively decides a fair price for the stock. The money bought in from investors in such a way helps the company to expand, setup newer facilities, grow and increase its profitability as well as revenue. This increased economic activity essentially "create" money. So, the initial action of buying/ selling of the stock is not a zero sum game.

The above is a theoretical, ideal condition. Yet, that is the basic outline of how stock markets work to create value.

[grabpopcorn536]

The stock market cannot be a zero-sum market. Businesses are creating products and products that impact society day and night. The main products are the goods, the real money. Their growth was recorded on audited financial statements despite gaps in the market.
  Only when companies are created on paper and bring no benefit that their stock prices are zero.

[fiulpro]

I’m willing to debate stock market is a zero sum and bank is running the zero sum ponzi game called stock market and derivative market.

Discuss:

What is ponzi
What is zero sum
What is derivative
Why, when how, who is the winner or loser of this ponzi

Stock market is not a Ponzi scheme. Do you understand what is a Ponzi scheme in the first place?? I do not like the stock market a lot since there are always better options like bitcoins and eth but at the same time it does not mean that they give the users profit out of new people's Investments. The stocks are dependent on the company's own financial status, if a company is performing well then they distribute the profits to the share holders. The initial public offering does provide the user with a great investment opportunity but at the same time the market is highly regulated and you do have to wait for a while to sell your shares , you cannot use them normally like you please everyday. But even so it's completely legit and you can try and make an investment. A zero sum marker is quite different, it does not even come within it's bounds. I do not understand why are you saying that though ? Care to explain.

[SaiyanSS3]

>>https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331334.msg56811655#msg56811655
>if you really want to argue then present a context of understanding from your point of view
That will be too much to compose and nobody would want to read them. Making it as short as possible to raise the interest to debate. After all it’s about counter argument to the stock market is not a ponzi. I decide to go against the belief, stock market is indeed a PONZI and also a ZERO SUM.

>>https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331334.msg56811998#msg56811998
>The above is a theoretical, ideal condition. Yet, that is the basic outline of how stock markets work to create value.
Do you think all the market data is even real? Do you think they can’t rigged all the value just to entice investor?

>>https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331334.msg56812337#msg56812337
>Businesses are creating products and products that impact society day and night.
what do you think of derivative, does it create product? Why every derivative have value?


>>https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331334.msg56812613#msg56812613
>I do not like the stock market a lot since there are always better options
bitcoin was created in the aftermath of stock market collapse, what do you think it create any value from this collapse?
>Care to explain.
That would be a lot of reading, I would make it short,
https://m.investing.com/analysis/if-bitcoin-is-a-fraud-so-too-is-the-dow-jones-industrial-average-200320326
they would do everything to make it sound like it’s not a ponzi, to convince everybody it’s creating value, however we all know it’s all fake.


More definition

Ponzi for general public
The early member make most of the profit from the new member who get into the scheme later.

Zero sum ponzi? We simply replace the word “member” to “business”

We can visualise it’s a ponzi setup for businesses. The early business that participate into this ponzi make most of the profit from the business that participate later. In the other word, those very ancient business would continue to be at the top of this Ponzi scheme while leeching the profit from the bottom of this ponzi, this ponzi wouldn’t collapse, the elites would do everything to uphold this ponzi.

Stock market is a zero sum, everything in this stock market eventually return to zero, every stock in the stock market eventually return to zero. The old stock take the value from the new stock to make its more valuable, if there is no new stock participate into this ponzi, it will eventually collapse.

Bank can issues unlimited shares for short selling. Creating a zero sum outcome

“u *can* sell stock u don’t own!? this is bs - shorting is a scam legal only for vestigial reasons” Elon Musk 2021

[sheenshane]

I think, before we go with this discussion, we had to master economics first.  We had to know first how economies are circulation to give values not to become zero-sum.  IMO, even with the traditional market, it was and it could be zero-sum. But because we the people trust it, we accept and transact using the standard store of value and standard payment method, the zero-sum becomes something valuable.  It’s all up to your product how would you raise yours.

The same principle applies to the stock market.  If the companies involved don’t have products that make sense and really are earning and thriving to survive, then it could be zero-sum.  But they're still there and stayed snd I think 50 years is enough for a lifetime to have values.

[ChiBitCTy]

As a financial advisor who's job is intertwined in to the stock market, I personally a full heartedly do not believe the stock market is a ponzi.  I can go one more and guarantee that it is not a ponzi.  That said, sure...is there some manipulation in the markets? Absolutely there is, just like there is manipulation in any and all markets..but everything is open ledger, so to speak, so you can see what is going on between the companies who offer their shares, and the markets/market makers offering those shares for trade.

[darewaller]

Discuss:

What is ponzi
What is zero sum
What is derivative
Why, when how, who is the winner or loser of this ponzi

It is not technically a zero sum game, same has been said about bitcoin as well and it is wrong. Why is it wrong? In a limited world there could be buyers and sellers and that is why one loses and one wins, but in an increasing market world there is no end to how much it could grow. This is the real problem with today's economy, every company wants to make more and more profits and that is why it gets so hard for the rest of the people, they are trying to make more profit but that means there will be less money for us the customers but investors require more income.

This means someone can buy from 10 and sell at 20 and person who buys at 20 can sell at 30 and this will go on with more people, meaning as long as stock price keeps going up there is no one losing. Sure there could be some losers who buy high and sell low, but if they wait it could go up as well.

[amishmanish]

>>https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5331334.msg56811998#msg56811998
>The above is a theoretical, ideal condition. Yet, that is the basic outline of how stock markets work to create value.
Do you think all the market data is even real? Do you think they can’t rigged all the value just to entice investor?

Nobody can be sure that "ALL" the data is real. Nobody can guarantee that their is no corruption in any institution devised by humans, let alone the stock market. Everybody knows that some have more access and influence than others. That is basic common sense that people learn to live with as they grow up.

Yet, if you are proposing that EVERYTHING is somehow "rigged" to entice investors, then you are just another conspiracy theorist spouting nonsense. It is not even very persuasive like conspiracy theorists are meant to be.

We can visualise it’s a ponzi setup for businesses. The early business that participate into this ponzi make most of the profit from the business that participate later. In the other word, those very ancient business would continue to be at the top of this Ponzi scheme while leeching the profit from the bottom of this ponzi,

That is a very childish analogy . Businesses go under all the time. Like all the fucking time. "Ancient" businesses collapse and in order to stay on top; CEOs, Managements and employees work hard. By your logic, Xerox should have been the top company in all of tech. Kodak should have been the sole player in Imaging technology. So it is just plain ignorant to say that early entrants in businesses are somehow guaranteed permanent dominance just by the virtue of being early.