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Author Topic: Open Transactions Server: Asset/Bond/Commodity/Cryptocoin/Deed/Share/Stock Exch.  (Read 18922 times)
jtimon
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January 27, 2012, 07:19:45 PM
 #81

Guys, what do you smoke today?

Does it matter? I would have written exactly the same thing if completely sober.
Still don't understand the difference between IOUs and cash or still don't believe that people often voluntarily accept unbacked certificates with no legal binding?
People even get into stranger's homes through reputation.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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becoin
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January 27, 2012, 07:35:07 PM
 #82

Nothing. You're screwed like a "my bitcoin" customer.
But you accepted that risk in the first place.
Interesting. Why should I accept this risk in the first place? Being anonymous your reputation is zero because anyone can speak on your behalf claiming they are you!


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markm
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January 27, 2012, 07:37:31 PM
 #83

I think your OT server is just a Martian proxy.

As to that, I am not permitted to say. However the MI-2 (Martian Intelligence Initiative) software that some claim i2p (invisible internet project) is a primitive low-tech imitation of seems to access .m5 websites just fine, which i2p doesn't. Whether this is due to the use of transwarp conduits, slipstream technology, or simple pedestrian subspace communications I suppose we'd have to ask 'Q'...

-MarkM-

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January 27, 2012, 07:40:36 PM
 #84

Nothing. You're screwed like a "my bitcoin" customer.
But you accepted that risk in the first place.
Interesting. Why should I accept this risk in the first place? Being anonymous your reputation is zero because anyone can speak on your behalf claiming they are you!

Anyone who has your private key, sure. Who do you give that "power of spokesperson" to?

-MarkM-

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becoin
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January 27, 2012, 07:50:17 PM
 #85

How can you do if you pay for 50 btc for a bag full of pills at silkroad and it doesn't arrive to your home?
Well, issue a negative vote. Just that.
This is different. This is commercial counter party risk.

What we discuss about is someone giving you fake money Since you can not exchange them for the asset they are backed by in minter's vault. They don't have value unless you find someone that is willing to give you something valuable in exchange for those fake money... And you find this to be a perfectly normal way of doing business?

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becoin
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January 27, 2012, 08:02:12 PM
 #86

Anyone who has your private key, sure.
Ahha, so why do you think your private key should be of any value to me? Because you would attach some "anonymous" reputation to it, right?

There is an old movie that was starting like that: "This is the City of London where reputations are made and... sold". So, what would be the guarantee that you will not "sell" your reputation when I least expect it, say by printing tokens that are not backed by actual assets?

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jtimon
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January 27, 2012, 08:06:21 PM
 #87

Nothing. You're screwed like a "my bitcoin" customer.
But you accepted that risk in the first place.
Interesting. Why should I accept this risk in the first place? Being anonymous your reputation is zero because anyone can speak on your behalf claiming they are you!

Minters can use public crypto. You don't know who they are but you know they're always the same people.
And people can vote their reputation with crypto too.

I haven't read even a quarter of bitcoin's code but I trust a random guy called satoshi. I can't sue the current developers of bitcoin if they introduce a bug on purpose to steal my bitcoins. Not likely to happen being free software anyway.
But from my point of view, this case is different. Because bitcoins aren't IOUs but actual cash (although not in the legal sense of any jurisdiction that I know).

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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January 27, 2012, 08:07:29 PM
 #88

Anyone who has your private key, sure.
Ahha, so why do you think your private key should be of any value to me? Because you would attach some "anonymous" reputation to it, right?

There is an old movie that was starting like that: "This is the City of London where reputations are made and... sold". So, what would be the guarantee that you will not "sell" your reputation when I least expect it, say by printing tokens that are not backed by actual assets?

Not my problem... I am not anonymous.

What guarantee does anyone have that you will not sell your non-anonymous reputation? Isn't that what "lamplighting" and related branches of "tradecraft" are all about? Did I get the term right? its been a while since I read John Le Carre and similar genre novels...)

-MarkM-

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January 27, 2012, 08:22:07 PM
 #89

What guarantee does anyone have that you will not sell your non-anonymous reputation?
I have signed a contract. Actually, the contract itself is the digital asset (Ricardian contracts). If I don't fulfill my obligation described in this contract I shall be brought to trial by the owners of those digital assets.

Why do you think people sign contracts? Because they need to do business with each other but don't trust entirely each other. Now you're trying to convince me that you have a reputation and I have to trust you 100%. If I trust you 100% I don't need any contract in the first place!

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markm
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January 27, 2012, 08:26:32 PM
 #90

Excellent, now we're getting somewhere!

The contract .otc files are a mechanism of the software, they are provided so the software will process our tokens, and can to an extent, at least to the operator of the server (me in this case) provide some sense of assurance that the server/software isn't cheating me / my users.

The contracts are signed by "nyms" which presumably correspond in the Galactic Milieu to clerks located in some office in the city MI5ius on the planet known as M5.

-MarkM-

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becoin
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January 27, 2012, 08:50:39 PM
 #91

The contract .otc files are a mechanism of the software, they are provided so the software will process our tokens, and can to an extent, at least to the operator of the server (me in this case) provide some sense of assurance that the server/software isn't cheating me / my users.
The server/software isn't cheating you / your users, but the server is operating with fake money because the minter using this server is not reliable. Whatever reputation this minter has so far nothing is preventing them from "printing" as much tokens as they wish without bothering to back them with actual assets. Nothing is limiting them because they can not be hold responsible for breaking the contract they have signed. They can not be hold responsible because they can not be brought to justice. They can not be brought to justice because they are anonymous... Case solved!

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jtimon
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January 27, 2012, 08:53:29 PM
 #92

What guarantee does anyone have that you will not sell your non-anonymous reputation?
I have signed a contract. Actually, the contract itself is the digital asset (Ricardian contracts). If I don't fulfill my obligation described in this contract I shall be brought to trial by the owners of those digital assets.

Why do you think people sign contracts? Because they need to do business with each other but don't trust entirely each other. Now you're trying to convince me that you have a reputation and I have to trust you 100%. If I trust you 100% I don't need any contract in the first place!

Maybe big companies won't accept non legally binding tokens, but people do it with small quantities all the time. When you buy a ticket for a beer in a concert, is there a contract?
Your counterparty risk is greater if you cannot sue your debtor (and if the IOUs are pseudonymously issued), but if you can sue it you still have a risk. Aren't Greek (or US for that matter) bonds legal contracts?
When you give assets in exchange of promises there's always risks.
You could also exchange your promises for other promises and pay transitively (see ripple). You could accept only tokens from pseudonymous you know well.
It is definitely possible that people accept non binding IOUs. There's lots of examples.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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January 27, 2012, 09:23:40 PM
 #93

The contract .otc files are a mechanism of the software, they are provided so the software will process our tokens, and can to an extent, at least to the operator of the server (me in this case) provide some sense of assurance that the server/software isn't cheating me / my users.
The server/software isn't cheating you / your users, but the server is operating with fake money because the minter using this server is not reliable. Whatever reputation this minter has so far nothing is preventing them from "printing" as much tokens as they wish without bothering to back them with actual assets. Nothing is limiting them because they can not be hold responsible for breaking the contract they have signed. They can not be hold responsible because they can not be brought to justice. They can not be brought to justice because they are anonymous... Case solved!

I repeat: I am not anonymous.

-MarkM- (Mark Metson at various well known sites, Knotwork at others, WHOIS knotwork.com and knotwork.net; heck I even run knotwork.i2p)

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da2ce7
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January 31, 2012, 10:29:30 AM
 #94

Merged in FT latest work into my MoneyChanger branch; please test:

https://github.com/da2ce7/Moneychanger

Banking Software? I develop it: Open-Transactions
       Windows Open-Transactions Builds
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February 03, 2012, 12:16:11 PM
 #95

OK... there are two Projects that need testing now:

There has been much work in making OT more portable to windows, and lots of general code file structure changes.

Major Changes:
  • Completely Remade Visual Studio Project Files,  now we have two solutions.  1.  project/open-transactions  2. library/library
  • Compiling Successfully on Windows 7 with solution files.   Working for both 32bit and 64bit targets
  • Reorganized the source code so that it now lives in the 'src' sub-folder.  This makes finding different parts of OT much more natural

Please checkout my git: https://github.com/da2ce7/Open-Transactions
Do some testing.... Follow the instructions in the docs/INSTALL-VisualStudio.txt guide.

If you want to use a pre-compiled boost for windows please use my upload: https://github.com/downloads/da2ce7/Open-Transactions/boost_1_48_0_precompiled.7z

Overall have fun!

And keep testing my Moneychanger master also Smiley

Banking Software? I develop it: Open-Transactions
       Windows Open-Transactions Builds
da2ce7
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February 05, 2012, 01:28:40 PM
 #96

Updated my master branch to include the work done by washort. Smiley

Everyone Please test and compile...

any MSVC guru's out there... I'm getting this weird link.exe hang... it seems to happen a bit randomly...

Banking Software? I develop it: Open-Transactions
       Windows Open-Transactions Builds
da2ce7
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February 05, 2012, 02:34:08 PM
 #97

Ok.

The first windows builds in a little while have been made:

(my master branch was used to create them)
https://github.com/da2ce7/Open-Transactions


find the OT_Bin_Windows_06-02-2012.7z file on the following page
https://github.com/da2ce7/Open-Transactions/downloads

Code:
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

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Edit... updated pgp message.

Banking Software? I develop it: Open-Transactions
       Windows Open-Transactions Builds
da2ce7
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February 05, 2012, 03:09:35 PM
 #98

Oh yeah... here is a development build of Moneychanger...  still very much in development... but good for playing arround.


Moneychanger_5-02-2012.7z

https://github.com/da2ce7/Moneychanger/downloads

Banking Software? I develop it: Open-Transactions
       Windows Open-Transactions Builds
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February 07, 2012, 03:04:27 AM
 #99

i dont fully understand how OT works.  but perhaps you smart fellas could join in on the conversation about the p2p currency exchange.
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February 24, 2012, 07:11:46 PM
 #100

Wow, we now have in place a bunch of deep fixes to the crypto that we thought would result in having to create all the contracts and so on over again as we thought their signatures would change from fixes to the signature system, but all the existing data seems to be working fine!

SO grab the latest Open Transactions and Moneychanger from github and come check it out!

-MarkM-

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