Miners fee

[Siimba]

Hi!

I just can't figure out whats going on with the miners fee where I am trying send from. Please if there is other topics then direct me there, I just been trying find anything relative to this the past 24 hours but nothing found.

Let me explain:

On coinbasewallet, for example; To send 3000 Euros the miners fee would be around 80 Euros, so 2.5%.
On BRD wallet, there I can at least choose the lowest speed and that would take me down to around 60 Euros for the fee.
And then Through Kraken exchange, there they only have a fixed fee of 0.00015 BTC, almost 7 Euros, no matter the amount you want to send. So that's really good compared to the wallets.

And I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it, but I'm looking at the mempool, and looking at some incoming transactions It just doesn't correspond with the fees I'm getting through the hotwallets I have. I see transactions with worth of 10 000 Euros and the fee is around 15-20 Euros, or even 3000 euros, what I see is just everything from 10-25 Euros in fee. Am I looking it at the right way?
Like I can't find any transaction that have the same amount fee as I get through the wallets I want to send from.

It's really annoying because I just got myself a Hardware wallet, so if I would make 2 transactions from the hot wallets the fee would pretty much be higher then the Hardware wallet itself...

I was expecting the fee would be what I see on the mempool, but like 80 Euros for one transaction??

Or do I just need to deal with it and pay in total around 150euros for the transactions? That's 330000 satoshis god dammit!!!!  

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[ranochigo]

Fees are not dependent on the value of the transaction. It is dependent on the amount of data within that transaction, you're essentially paying for the data that you're storing on the blockchain. Hence, more inputs/outputs = higher total fees and vice versa.

The fee rate is what you should be looking at. Certain services can provide various subsidies for the user's transaction fees to incentivise them to keep their funds with them or they can afford to do so as they're sending to multiple recipients in the same transaction; (ie. Transaction batching) total transaction size is effectively smaller. Spending 1 inputs to 10 addresses would be far more efficient than 10 different transactions each.

With non-custodial wallet, the fees are defined by the user and with respect to the fees of the transaction in the mempool (paying more in terms of fee rates would likely net you a faster confirmation). I'd probably be looking to do regular consolidation transactions if I were you, by sending the funds back to yourself periodically during period of low fees. This effectively consolidates your multiple inputs into one and if you were to spend it the next time the fees are high, the transaction size would be far smaller as you'll only include one input.

[NeuroticFish]

Hi
There are 2 type of fees here:
1. The custodian services have their withdrawal fee, which covers miners' fee, but usually gives the custodians also some "pocket money"
2. Even if it's non-custodian, a wallet can easily miscalculate the fee, usually to a higher value.

Most wallets also assume that you are in a hurry and offer you the highest fee for fast confirmation.


Now, the network was in trouble about 10 days ago and it didn't recover properly yet (it will in some 4-5 more days). Also during working days more transactions are sent and the fee rises.
You should take a look onto https://mempool.space/ or the charts from https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC,24h,weight
The mempool is clearing up, slowly and if you have patience, even a much lower fee should do. But the lower the fee, the riskier it is that if the mempool fills up and your transaction will slack behind, maybe even getting forgotten and returning to the originating wallet (which you don't really want with a custodian wallet)

Also the transaction fee is not related to the amount you are sending, it's more related to the number of inputs, if it's a proper (non custodian) wallet.

All in all:
1. Ask separately about each wallet/problem you have.
2. Tell it more clearly, for example there are multiple coinbase wallets, custodian and non-custodian.
3. Try to learn all you can and, if no rush, don't send your funds before next Sunday. Also keep an eye on mempool.space and the fees the wallets show you.

[Charles-Tim]

Is Coinbase wallet not having fee customization? So that you will be able to manually edit the fee? Know that exchanges and custodial wallets like coinbase.com can have a fixed withdrawal that will contain the miners fee and maintenance fee, unlike noncustododial exchanges that will only request for miners fee.

Normally, the mempool is congested, another reason for such high fee, but you can still try to negotiate a way through. Try to wait until mining difficulty is adjusted, likely not more than a week from now. Then, the transaction fee would have been reduced. After, try to wait until weekend, the mempool is usually not congested on weekends (especially on Sunday). This will be the perfect time to send your bitcoin.

[Siimba]

3. Try to learn all you can and, if no rush, don't send your funds before next Sunday. Also keep an eye on mempool.space and the fees the wallets show you.

Thanks for the reply!
Coming back to number 3, that's what I've been exactly doing the past 24 hours. It just 99% of the time the fees are not close to the fees I'm getting, so that's what I am so confused about it.

definitely not in a rush and just trying learn as much as possibly about this!

[Siimba]

Is Coinbase wallet not having fee customization? So that you will be able to manually edit the fee? Know that exchanges and custodial wallets like coinbase.com can have a fixed withdrawal that will contain the miners fee and maintenance fee, unlike noncustododial exchanges that will only request for miners fee.

Normally, the mempool is congested, another reason for such high fee, but you can still try to negotiate a way through. Try to wait until mining difficulty is adjusted, likely not more than a week from now. Then, the transaction fee would have been reduced. After, try to wait until weekend, the mempool is usually not congested on weekends (especially on Sunday). This will be the perfect time to send your bitcoin.

Atleast not for BTC, I know for ETH you can customize the fee, but for BTC it ain't giving me that option.. It would make sense if they would take out a maintenance fee, but then if a average fee for miners would be around 30 Euros today as it says on some websites, then 50 Euro would still be a huge maintenance fee taken by the wallet.. And even the "info" button on miners fee on the coinbase wallet says: That the miner fee is not paid to Coinbase. So I would assume they would mention a maintenance fee if there would be one, otherwise I guess that would be fraud by coinbase to take out a amount from what they claim to be the miners fee?

Will definitely for now wait a bit and see what happens!

[ranochigo]

Atleast not for BTC, I know for ETH you can customize the fee, but for BTC it ain't giving me that option.. It would make sense if they would take out a maintenance fee, but then if a average fee for miners would be around 30 Euros today as it says on some websites, then 50 Euro would still be a huge maintenance fee taken by the wallet.. And even the "info" button on miners fee on the coinbase wallet says: That the miner fee is not paid to Coinbase. So I would assume they would mention a maintenance fee if there would be one, otherwise I guess that would be fraud by coinbase to take out a amount from what they claim to be the miners fee?

Different wallets/exchange has different fees estimation. Certain exchange tends to overestimate the fees to err on the side of caution as there would be a huge influx of complains if the transaction doesn't confirm within a reasonable period of time due to various external factors. If you're using Coinbase as an exchange (there is a wallet which is non-custodial), it would make sense for them to take a portion of the transaction fees as well; depositing into any exchange/services will require them to move the funds from your deposit address and that could incur a fee as well. Doubt that this is actually the case though.

[Siimba]

Atleast not for BTC, I know for ETH you can customize the fee, but for BTC it ain't giving me that option.. It would make sense if they would take out a maintenance fee, but then if a average fee for miners would be around 30 Euros today as it says on some websites, then 50 Euro would still be a huge maintenance fee taken by the wallet.. And even the "info" button on miners fee on the coinbase wallet says: That the miner fee is not paid to Coinbase. So I would assume they would mention a maintenance fee if there would be one, otherwise I guess that would be fraud by coinbase to take out a amount from what they claim to be the miners fee?

Different wallets/exchange has different fees estimation. Certain exchange tends to overestimate the fees to err on the side of caution as there would be a huge influx of complains if the transaction doesn't confirm within a reasonable period of time due to various external factors. If you're using Coinbase as an exchange (there is a wallet which is non-custodial), it would make sense for them to take a portion of the transaction fees as well; depositing into any exchange/services will require them to move the funds from your deposit address and that could incur a fee as well. Doubt that this is actually the case though.

Well, I have my funds on the non-custodial wallet. So I get what you mean by sending through the exchange itself. But the wallet is not really connected to the exchange, it works as any other non-custodial hotwallet out there that will say.

[Siimba]

Is Coinbase wallet not having fee customization? So that you will be able to manually edit the fee? Know that exchanges and custodial wallets like coinbase.com can have a fixed withdrawal that will contain the miners fee and maintenance fee, unlike noncustododial exchanges that will only request for miners fee.

Normally, the mempool is congested, another reason for such high fee, but you can still try to negotiate a way through. Try to wait until mining difficulty is adjusted, likely not more than a week from now. Then, the transaction fee would have been reduced. After, try to wait until weekend, the mempool is usually not congested on weekends (especially on Sunday). This will be the perfect time to send your bitcoin.

Atleast not for BTC, I know for ETH you can customize the fee, but for BTC it ain't giving me that option.. It would make sense if they would take out a maintenance fee, but then if a average fee for miners would be around 30 Euros today as it says on some websites, then 50 Euro would still be a huge maintenance fee taken by the wallet.. And even the "info" button on miners fee on the coinbase wallet says: That the miner fee is not paid to Coinbase. So I would assume they would mention a maintenance fee if there would be one, otherwise I guess that would be fraud by coinbase to take out a amount from what they claim to be the miners fee?

Will definitely for now wait a bit and see what happens!

1. Both BTC and ETH allow you to customize the fee, you just need to find wallet which can do it (such as Electrum)
2. The fee is taken by miner and the purpose is allowing your transaction confirmed quickly. It's not maintenance fee and not taken by wallet (at least for non-custodial wallet).

I wish I would have Known about a wallet like Electrum beforehand! haha, well I guess this is how you learn. But also I don't get why the non custodial Coinbase wallet is letting you customize the fee for ETH but not for BTC.. ?

[Charles-Tim]

Well, I have my funds on the non-custodial wallet. So I get what you mean by sending through the exchange itself. But the wallet is not really connected to the exchange, it works as any other non-custodial hotwallet out there that will say.

If you are using noncustododial coinbase wallet, you can still try to negotiate your way through.

As ETFbitcoin stated above, if not truly able to customize the bitcoin fee on noncustodial coinbase wallet, then you need to import the seed phrase on electrum.

Learn how to download electrum wallet. Download it and verify its PGP signature.

• open the electrum wallet
• click on 'Next'
• click on 'Standard wallet'
• click on 'I already have a seed'
• import the seed phrase from coinbase wallet on electrum wallet and make sure you BIP39 box is checked marked
• make sure the box for BIP 39 is marked, it will not work if not marked
• click on next

• If the address start from 1, choose legacy. If the address starts from bc1, choose native segwit.

Your bitcoin balance should appear after the wallet synchronize with the blockchain. You can customize the fee on electrum desktop wallet. You can wait until the mining difficulty is adjusted and sedd with low fee during the weekend (especially Sunday when the mempool is most not congest). Or, send with low fee, making sure the fee is not lesser than 10 sat/byte for legacy address or 20 sat/vbyte for segwit address, and try to use ViaBTC accelerator, but only 100 transactions are taking per hour.

Make sure the transaction support replace-by-fee, so that you will still have the option to pump the fee.

[o_e_l_e_o]

It would make sense if they would take out a maintenance fee, but then if a average fee for miners would be around 30 Euros today as it says on some websites

You need to stop talking about fees in fixed amounts of euros, or any other fiat currency, because it is meaningless.

As explained above, the fee you pay depends on your transaction's size in bytes, not its value in bitcoin. A transaction with 1 input could send millions of euros and only be a few hundred bytes in size, whereas a transaction with 100 inputs could only send 100 euros but be tens of thousands of bytes in size. A fee of 30 euros might be a massive overpayment if the transaction is very small, it might be a massive underpayment if the transaction is very large, or it might be just right. No one can tell without also knowing the other details of the transaction. To understand more about why your transaction might have 1 input or have dozens of inputs, have a read of this: https://learnmeabitcoin.com/beginners/outputs

It is much more useful to talk about fees in terms of satoshis per vbyte (virtual byte), which is how transactions are actually prioritized by miners. You can then use a site such as https://mempool.space/ to tell you what an appropriate fee is at present. Note that if you are not in a hurry, then I would wait until after this weekend to make any transactions. The reason behind this (although you don't need to worry about this) is because the difficulty will drop on Sunday, which will speed up the average block time and therefore should reduce the backlog in the mempool and make things cheaper for everyone.

[Siimba]

It would make sense if they would take out a maintenance fee, but then if a average fee for miners would be around 30 Euros today as it says on some websites

You need to stop talking about fees in fixed amounts of euros, or any other fiat currency, because it is meaningless.

As explained above, the fee you pay depends on your transaction's size in bytes, not its value in bitcoin. A transaction with 1 input could send millions of euros and only be a few hundred bytes in size, whereas a transaction with 100 inputs could only send 100 euros but be tens of thousands of bytes in size. A fee of 30 euros might be a massive overpayment if the transaction is very small, it might be a massive underpayment if the transaction is very large, or it might be just right. No one can tell without also knowing the other details of the transaction. To understand more about why your transaction might have 1 input or have dozens of inputs, have a read of this: https://learnmeabitcoin.com/beginners/outputs

It is much more useful to talk about fees in terms of satoshis per vbyte (virtual byte), which is how transactions are actually prioritized by miners. You can then use a site such as https://mempool.space/ to tell you what an appropriate fee is at present. Note that if you are not in a hurry, then I would wait until after this weekend to make any transactions. The reason behind this (although you don't need to worry about this) is because the difficulty will drop on Sunday, which will speed up the average block time and therefore should reduce the backlog in the mempool and make things cheaper for everyone.

yes I know, It was just a easy way compare it on that part. But I get you!

Thanks for the link, I will definitely have a read!

[Siimba]

Alright, I sort of made it work!

I was sitting on mempool, and just saw the sat/vB getting lower. So I went on the Coinbase and BRD wallets, but was still no change. So what I did was download Bluewallet on the phone, import the wallets there and then the Low/med/high fee was corresponding with the ones on mempool. I didn't even have to touch the custom fee option as I got my transactions made for around 20-25 sat/vB each.. For less then 1 hour.

But just weird that the other wallets didn't really keep up on the fees :S

Oh well, anyways, thanks for everybody for their replies, tips, info and links about stuff to read!

[Findingnemo]

Alright, I sort of made it work!

I was sitting on mempool, and just saw the sat/vB getting lower. So I went on the Coinbase and BRD wallets, but was still no change. So what I did was download Bluewallet on the phone, import the wallets there and then the Low/med/high fee was corresponding with the ones on mempool. I didn't even have to touch the custom fee option as I got my transactions made for around 20-25 sat/vB each.. For less then 1 hour.

But just weird that the other wallets didn't really keep up on the fees :S

Oh well, anyways, thanks for everybody for their replies, tips, info and links about stuff to read!

If you want to make the cheapest fast transaction then custom fee is going to help you because as previoustly mentioned above, most wallet give miscalculated fee which is not corresponding to the the mempool so you can analyze the mempool on your won then set fees for the faster and cheaper transaction.

Few hours back I made some of the transactions at 21sat/byte which included in the next block itself but after that again the fee hiked up. I was lucky though to see the mempool at the right time.

[Siimba]

Alright, I sort of made it work!

I was sitting on mempool, and just saw the sat/vB getting lower. So I went on the Coinbase and BRD wallets, but was still no change. So what I did was download Bluewallet on the phone, import the wallets there and then the Low/med/high fee was corresponding with the ones on mempool. I didn't even have to touch the custom fee option as I got my transactions made for around 20-25 sat/vB each.. For less then 1 hour.

But just weird that the other wallets didn't really keep up on the fees :S

Oh well, anyways, thanks for everybody for their replies, tips, info and links about stuff to read!

If you want to make the cheapest fast transaction then custom fee is going to help you because as previoustly mentioned above, most wallet give miscalculated fee which is not corresponding to the the mempool so you can analyze the mempool on your won then set fees for the faster and cheaper transaction.

Few hours back I made some of the transactions at 21sat/byte which included in the next block itself but after that again the fee hiked up. I was lucky though to see the mempool at the right time.

That's what exactly happened to me, I got 2 transactions done between 20-25 sat/byte and the last one I'm a bit stuck with as the fee hiked up at that time, but seeing as I'm not in a hurry it can take it's time

It's sweet to learn new web pages and info about this every single day!

[HCP]

But just weird that the other wallets didn't really keep up on the fees :S

Not really.

The network is in constant flux... New transactions are being added all the time (at various rates)... while transactions are being removed from the holding pool due to being included in a block (again, at various rates due to the variability of block times).

So, the number of unconfirmed transactions and their fee rates used are constantly changing... ie. the goal posts are always shifting.

Trying to program a fee estimation tool is not as simple as you might think... if you err on the side of "fast confirmation", you'll end up with a wallet that uses higher fees and users will complain. If you err on the side "lower fees", there is a chance that user transactions will get stuck... and users will complain!

Typically what happens is that simply relying on whatever a wallet selects, is going to result in a less than optimal result... you'll either overpay or your transaction will take longer to confirm. The ideal solution is to do what you have done and learn about fee rates, the network, the "mempool" and how to deduce what a "good" fee rate is manually...

However, some people want "easy"... and just want to click a button... so they pay for that convenience with either higher fees or longer confirmation times

[Findingnemo]

Alright, I sort of made it work!

I was sitting on mempool, and just saw the sat/vB getting lower. So I went on the Coinbase and BRD wallets, but was still no change. So what I did was download Bluewallet on the phone, import the wallets there and then the Low/med/high fee was corresponding with the ones on mempool. I didn't even have to touch the custom fee option as I got my transactions made for around 20-25 sat/vB each.. For less then 1 hour.

But just weird that the other wallets didn't really keep up on the fees :S

Oh well, anyways, thanks for everybody for their replies, tips, info and links about stuff to read!

If you want to make the cheapest fast transaction then custom fee is going to help you because as previoustly mentioned above, most wallet give miscalculated fee which is not corresponding to the the mempool so you can analyze the mempool on your won then set fees for the faster and cheaper transaction.

Few hours back I made some of the transactions at 21sat/byte which included in the next block itself but after that again the fee hiked up. I was lucky though to see the mempool at the right time.

That's what exactly happened to me, I got 2 transactions done between 20-25 sat/byte and the last one I'm a bit stuck with as the fee hiked up at that time, but seeing as I'm not in a hurry it can take it's time

It's sweet to learn new web pages and info about this every single day!

You and we got lucky but today we can see significant decrease in the mempool congestion so now you got the advantage to make cheap transactions if you are doing it from your wallets, that is why it is important to keep the access of our funds in our hands now in exchanges.