Transaction fees: send or wait

[Timelord2067]

If you can't endure to wait more time follow NeuroticFish's advice and make double-spend using RBF.

Armchair experts such as yourself seem to overlook to fact that as I've said previously, Zap Wallet has no option to do anything of the sort.  Not zaptranasaction, not CPFP, not even a double spend nore export the privkey and move the funds to another wallet.

Rebroadcasting the rawtransaction and waiting are my only options.

And since the tx was first seen 2 months ago, I guess that the sender has the patience to wait a few more days 

How very true.

[1714506987]

1714506987

[Beparanf]

I'm holding and expecting for the fee to lower as you suggest on this thread. The current fee is almost 7% of the total amount that I'm sending. The current fee on electrum wallet showing 83sats/byte on 5 to 25  which is quite lower compared on the fee you start the thread. Your analysis seems pretty good and thanks for this suggestion.

[stompix]

The current fee on electrum wallet showing 83sats/byte on 5 to 25  which is quite lower compared on the fee you start the thread.

Don't trust any of those estimators, and electrum despite being my favorite wallet has, unfortunately, another shitty one.
I've said it before in a previous post, it's a really bad time for estimators as there are a lot of spikes in fees coming from exchanges that batch transactions (such as Binance) that overpay by a wide margin and this push temporary the fee up..
Block 682147 had an average fee of 22sat/b,  682149 went to 93sat/vb and this is happening all the time, somebody just paid 700sat/b..why...god knows.

The mempool is going to be empty for the first time in months, seems like the perfect storm is happening, the hashrate is not only back to the normal values but its actually higher so it might be possible the May batch of miners is getting deployed, then we had Labour day, the Golden Week and Orthodox Easter in the last week, more free days less usage, and on top even if this pace ends it will happen just before another weekend.

But at the same time, this will probably be the last chance to consolidate inputs and to take advantage of low fees, unless we repeat history with another accident.
So, @Timelord2067, the only suggestion I can give you is.... don't do it again!  

[FinneysTrueVision]

It should get confirmed in the week-end.

And if it doesn't and you can import the seed/keys to Electrum (sorry, I'm not familiar with Zap), you can increase fee, since it has RBF enabled (just then it will become another transaction, which may matter or not)

There doesn't seem to be anyway to export privkeys from Zap wallets.  Zap also doesn't allow you to spend unconfirmed TX's (and you can't cancel a TX already in play).

I appreciate your estimate that the TX will clear by the week-end.  Hopefully you are right.

I have not tried this before but I think you should be able to export you Zap wallet keys to Electrum using this guide.

https://openoms.gitbook.io/lightning-node-management/technicals/restorelndonchainfundsinelectrum

[stompix]

Agreed on consolidation matter, but, IMO it makes sense only if the goal is HODL.

Hmm, from my point of view is the other way around, if the goal is HODL it doesn't really matter as you don't plan on making transactions anywhere soon and I don't think people will HODL dust worth 3 dollars each grain .

If one uses BTC on the daily  basis the bunch of inputs to the same address would give him a freedom to select those UTXO which cover his every spend by exact amount. Therefore addresses with unconsolidated inputs stand in good stead as well.

On one of the wallets that I use for buying stuff and other things, I have currently about 11 worth less than 0.0001 BTC and 5 less than 0.001 BTC what am I supposed to do with those? Coin control does help you once in a while but over time you will have a lot of those unless you overpay each time and send all the satoshis with no change, would you do that with every transaction, as I assume we're talking about purchasing stuff, not depositing to exchanges.

[Timelord2067]

I have not tried this before but I think you should be able to export you Zap wallet keys to Electrum using this guide.

https://openoms.gitbook.io/lightning-node-management/technicals/restorelndonchainfundsinelectrum

Hey thanks for the information - I wasn't even aware something like this could be done!  I've been importing the relevant privkeys as we speak.  Once they're imported, I'll use a more appropriate TX fee (I had been intending to make the TX fee 10 sats, but wasn't paying attention that it was just one sat).

Kudos.

[NeuroticFish]

I'll use a more appropriate TX fee (I had been intending to make the TX fee 10 sats, but wasn't paying attention that it was just one sat).

Maybe another time. This 2 sat/vByte tx was confirmed 3 blocks ago. And  it's not even Saturday

[Timelord2067]

I'll use a more appropriate TX fee (I had been intending to make the TX fee 10 sats, but wasn't paying attention that it was just one sat).

Maybe another time. This 2 sat/vByte tx was confirmed 3 blocks ago. And  it's not even Saturday

*Deep sigh*

Yeh, I know... I spent the last 24 hours importing the privkeys from the Zap Wallet via the instructions @FinneysTrueVision very kindly provided and then the TX confirmed anyway...  I set up to shift those funds to another wallet using 20 sats as the TX payment value and it got confirmed within three minutes.  (First TX value too little, second too much).

Thanks everyone for your help.

[nakamura12]

This time is a bit faster compared to month ago where I made a transaction of 20sat/byte and it got confirmed less than a day but next time I made a other transaction with same sat/byte it takes more than a week before it gets confirmed but now it is much lower. I tried to rebroadcast many times but no luck, maybe it's not legit.

[jerry0]

I want to send some btc from nano ledger to coinbase.



When I was using the nano ledger with ledger live and put in an amount to send... say 0.05 btc... it showed the option to change the btc fees.. and it was standard which was 89 sat per byte?  I clicked on low... and all it did was 88?  Then put high and it went up to 90.  But when you look at the price of it... it was essentially 8 dollars more or less for either of these options? It shows the words sat per byte.  Is that the same thing as sat/byte and sat/vbyte?  Im confused if sat/byte and sat/vbyte is the same or not?




So what is the lowest amount i could change that 89 to where it would do the transaction pretty fast?  I assume right now... it probably would go through in less than an hour?  I thought it was twenty dollar fee last time but now avg fee is 8 dollars?  Do you need to make any changes with ledger live settings for the fees... or you only need to change that 89 to another number?  I heard 10 should be the absolute minimum one should ever put down?



I assume putting that low of a fee...  might mean it takes whole day for transaction to go through?  But if it does go through, nano ledger will tell you went through but not confirmed right?

[jerry0]

 I want to test a tiny btc deposit to my coinbase address since i never sent one to it just in case.  Then i would send a bigger amount.  If im going to test say a l0 dollar btc transfer from nano ledger to coinbase, you would recommend send with a cheap fee right?  Risky to do this with say 5 sat/kb?  Or should i do more?



I just took a look right now and on mempool it shows


Low priority
35 sat/vB
$2.89


Medium priority
56 sat/vB
$4.63


High priority
91 sat/vB
$7.53



About 12 hours ago or a bit more ago, i remembered the low priority was much lower and so were the other ones.  So basically if you are not in a rush, check this site to see what is the low priority, medium priority and high priority correct?


Im looking at the latest transactions and it seems almost everyone is putting at least 20 sat/vb with the majority of the fees being like 80 sat/vb.  That is normal right when thats how the low/medium/high priority fees look like now?  So that is why i almost see no transaction like last night when many fees were around 5 sat/vb?


Also is there a way to see the transactions without it going so fast like on mempool?  I want to look for people who pay a low transaction fee like say 20 sat/vb or less... and are sending say up to 5000 dollars for example.  Like i just copied and paste this transaction


https://mempool.space/tx/6bc68b7e4b8fda1cf03aac76ec5b9fb1d22eb44a67efd524dc5c6a62c04ded2e


So this person paying

Fee   3,859 sat$2.26
Fee rate   17.2 sat/vB


‎0.08661796 BTC or around 5000 usd.


I see it immediately shows ETA is l0 minutes or l block.  Then a minute later... 20 minutes or 2 blocks.   Im going to see how long it takes for this transaction to confirm.  So after it shows l confirmation on the transaction, its pretty much confirmed right?

[nc50lc]

I want to test a tiny btc deposit to my coinbase address since i never sent one to it just in case.  Then i would send a bigger amount.  If im going to test say a l0 dollar btc transfer from nano ledger to coinbase, you would recommend send with a cheap fee right?  Risky to do this with say 5 sat/kb?  Or should i do more?

I just took a look right now and on mempool it shows
-snip-

What client are your using, Ledger live?
Because every wallet has a unique implementation on "guessing" the fee rate per priority level.
And there's really no way to accurately tell if the transaction will be mined in the next block or x number of blocks, so the numbers that you're getting are mostly estimates.

For the tiny amount versus large amount: it's wrong to assume that a transaction with low output amount will have lower fee rate or can be mined faster with a lower fee rate than a transaction with larger amount.
Miners only care about the "fee rate" when prioritizing transactions, that's the X sat/vB of the transaction.
(and other factors like if the parent txn is also unconfirmed)

For the total fee: It's the transaction's virtual size (in virtual Bytes) that will make the total fee higher or lower.
Your example transaction for example, it has a fee rate of 17.2 sat/vB, that'll determine if it's priority or not, prioritization is the same whether it's a $5000 deposit or $10.
It's virtual size is 224 vB (displayed below) multiplied by 17.2 sat/vB = 3,859 sat or $2.26 at that time.
The virtual size is based from the number of inputs and outputs as well as the address type.

[khaled0111]

If im going to test say a l0 dollar btc transfer from nano ledger to coinbase, you would recommend send with a cheap fee right? 

No, definitely no. Just because you are sending a small amount for testing purposes doesn't mean you should set low fee rate. (remember, the fee you have to pay depends on the transaction size/weight, not on the sent amount)

I'll try to explain why you shouldn't do this (unless you know what you're doing): let's say your wallet only received a $1000 transaction, if you send 10$, the whole amount in your wallet will be used as input and the remaining $990 will be sent back to you. If this transaction remain stuck because of low fees, any new transaction you are going to make has to pay higher fees than what's actually needed in order to accelerate the first one. Besides, you have to make sure the wallet app you're using allows spending unconfirmed balance.

[Charles-Tim]

Besides, you have to make sure the wallet app you're using allows spending unconfirmed balance.

He is sending to Coinbase, and it can be Coinbase.com which is a custodial wallet, it will not be able to spend unconfirmed transaction on such wallet. As he is sending to his own wallet, why don't him just as a sender enable replace-by-fee and make sure the transaction support replace-by-fee so that he will be able to double spend it with higher fee in case of stuck transaction which will be the best way to increase the fee so the transaction can be included into a block by miners.

[stompix]

~

You can include them into the next payment/s. I don't think  all your spends are as large as 1BTC. For example you may get an yearly  subscription plan from  most VPN providers for around  (2 x 0.001 BTC) + (n x  0.0001 BTC), n depends on the service.  

So you're basically doing the same thing but at a higher fee since you're still using more outputs than one.

My daily spends requires such small UTXOs as I like to pay the exact sum and not to use the change.

Especially since we talk about small sum by comparison if I had 15 outputs and I would be able to consolidate them at 1sat/b then spend it in 5 consecutive purchases with change at 10sat/b just like you do with 3 outputs I would still be doing this 4$ cheaper even considering the first consolidation fee.
At 20sat/b it will simply become useless to even use some of the outputs so I would simply end up with money I can't spend.
there are more examples in loycev's topic and I still stand by my opinion, consolidation periods like this one are best for people who had a ton of dust.

Luckily for me, I didn't get greedy and I did consolidate my inputs at 2sat/b.
I don't know who these guys are but because of them and their 60vMB of transactions, we didn't get an empty mempool after all.

[NeuroticFish]

Luckily for me, I didn't get greedy and I did consolidate my inputs at 2sat/b.
I don't know who these guys are but because of them and their 60vMB of transactions, we didn't get an empty mempool after all.

You're right. Although 1sat/vByte miracle did happen, it didn't last long and 2 sat/vByte was the safe way to go.
I've consolidated mine at 2.1 sat/vByte.

But I feel like I reached my goal: awareness for this "event". The next difficulty adjustment will be before the week-end and we'll get back to what we call normality, with mempool increasing more than decreasing and this kind of "chance" will probably won't happen for a while.