Vaccinated people are walking biological time bombs and a THREAT to society

[just_Alice]

I haven't taken the vaccine, and don't plan on it. I'm young, I'm healthy and the virus at this points kills like .01 of the very old people who get it AND have other health conditions.

That way you'll be only thinking of yourself and not about the ones that surround you. You may be strong and healthy and have an extremely low risk of severe cases, but what about the others? Being young doesn't make you less susceptible to the virus, it only helps you to come through this illness easily. But without a vaccine, you may get infected and the virus will replicate actively inside your body, making you a living waking source of the infection. Thus, putting everyone who's around you at risk.

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[OgNasty]

I wanted to say that I enjoyed the title of this thread.

Also, it has some merit to an extent in my opinion.  I strongly believe that the human race is ultimately better off naturally fighting off threats and that certain advances in our medical capabilities may have a negative long term effect on the strength of the human race to fight off potential threats in the future.  We seem to be becoming reliant on our scientific advancements to save us from threats at an increasing rate as a way to avoid being accountable for our own poor decisions and behavior. 

[Poker Player]

Seriously though, we know that the data show that the vaccine reduces the likelihood of both infection and transmission. I've posted so many links to professional, expert sources, that are independent of one another, from many different countries around the world, from governments, universities, scientific bodies, etc.
Why would you think that being vaccinated increases the risk of spreading the virus? The thing that increases it is refusing the vaccine, refusing to wears masks and refusing to respect social distancing.

I don't know what you think about the role of vitamin D in all this. There are a lot of articles compiled in:

https://vitamindwiki.com/COVID-19+treated+by+Vitamin+D+-+studies%2C+reports%2C+videos

That it's a website run by a retired engineer, not a doctor, but not a kid writing from his mum's basement either, and he puts links to scientific articles, apart from videos etc.

I used to get colds 2-3 times a year, and the colds lasted quite a while. I say cold including flu or sore throat.  Since I discovered vitamin D like 5 years ago, I have gone to having 0 colds. One a couple of occasions I thought I was starting to get a cold but it didn't last more than 24 hours, and it's a common thing that people who have optimal vitamin D levels say: that they don't get colds and if they do, they don't get them for long and with few symptoms. In principle, those studies linked point out that the same thing would happen with COVID-19.

The pharmaceutical industry is not interested in this because the sun is free and vitamin D as a supplement is cheap and it is not a drug that can only be sold exclusively by the industry, you can buy it in herbalists, for example.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Obviously, he is very wrong in this case.

I am yet to see an opinion from BADecker which could be called anything other than "very wrong".

We seem to be becoming reliant on our scientific advancements to save us from threats at an increasing rate as a way to avoid being accountable for our own poor decisions and behavior.

This is not unique to the field of medicine. We depend on scientific advancements to create enough food for us, to supply clean water, to build adequate shelter, to protect us from predators, and so on. Drop the average American in to the middle of the jungle and I would wager they would be dead before they could find drinking water.

I don't know what you think about the role of vitamin D in all this.

The evidence I have seen seems to suggest that a deficiency in vitamin D can make COVID worse, rather than extra vitamin D being protective against COVID, but I haven't spent a huge amount of time reading around this topic. Regardless, the majority of Americans are deficient in vitamin D, especially those in more northern states, and should be taking a vitamin D supplement anyway.

[Cnut237]

~

I was just getting ready to respond, and then I read your post, where you pretty much said everything I was going to say

becoming reliant on our scientific advancements

This is not new. Photo below of 45,000 year old mammoth bone with spear wound. The history of human civilisation is the history of tool use, is the history of using technological advancements to keep ourselves alive. Vaccines are a triumph of human ingenuity.

http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/f233-the-smoking-gun-proving-ancient-man-killed-woolly-mammoth-45000-years-ago/

I don't know what you think about the role of vitamin D in all this.

The evidence I have seen seems to suggest that a deficiency in vitamin D can make COVID worse, rather than extra vitamin D being protective against COVID, but I haven't spent a huge amount of time reading around this topic. Regardless, the majority of Americans are deficient in vitamin D, especially those in more northern states, and should be taking a vitamin D supplement anyway.

Yes, moderate supplementation seems like a good idea, especially at higher latitudes. I'm not sure how likely toxicity through overdosing is, but ultra-high dose vitamins aren't a great idea in general.
In the UK, the NHS has been offering free supplementation for Covid high-risk groups. There's also a recent report by the BMJ here.

The pharmaceutical industry is not interested in this because the sun is free and vitamin D as a supplement is cheap

It's worth noting that vitamin D is not a secret magical panacea that is being hidden from us by Big Pharma because it doesn't make them $$$. It's also worth noting in regard to this myth that AZ are providing their vaccine at cost, with no profit motive.
Vitamin D may help against Covid to an extent, and is unlikely to harm unless you're mega-dosing. But it's not the single answer, or even the best answer. Vaccination is the way out of this. And until vaccination is at sufficient levels to provide herd immunity, then masks, social distancing etc are crucial.

[suchmoon]

Obviously, he is very wrong in this case.

I am yet to see an opinion from BADecker which could be called anything other than "very wrong".

I've seen him make merely-half-wrong arguments in the flat earth thread, may it rest in peace. Shockingly he does not subscribe to that particular conspiracy theory - go figure.

[just_Alice]

Yes, moderate supplementation seems like a good idea, especially at higher latitudes. I'm not sure how likely toxicity through overdosing is, but ultra-high dose vitamins aren't a great idea in general.
In the UK, the NHS has been offering free supplementation for Covid high-risk groups. There's also a recent report by the BMJ here.

From what I've read, it seems like only people with serious Vitamin D deficiency ought to take the supplements. According to this article from PubMed hospitalized patients with a severe vitamin D deficiency had a much higher mortality probability against the ones that didn't (50% against 5%).

However, everything is not that simple with coronavirus and I strongly encourage people without the deficiency not to take any supplements. Not only due to toxicity, like you pointed out, but because of the virus's peculiar features.

It has been found that Vitamin D increases the expression of the ACE2 receptor, which is a binding site for the coronavirus. In other words - there will be more contact points between the cells and the virus, thus, there's a risk of increasing the number of infected cells by making it easier for the virus to penetrate.

People should really be careful with self-treatment, even if it's something as innocent as the vitamins, and consult with professionals.

[Poker Player]

Yes, moderate supplementation seems like a good idea, especially at higher latitudes. I'm not sure how likely toxicity through overdosing is, but ultra-high dose vitamins aren't a great idea in general.

The thing is that to begin with, vitamin D, although it is so called, is not technically speaking a vitamin, but a prohormone. Overdose toxicity can occur, but you have to take whole bottles every day for it to happen. Sunbathing alone you can't get it.  Also, hypercalcemia, which is the danger of taking high doses of vitamin D, is reversible. It is cured by stopping sunbathing and stopping supplementation. Another thing is that RDAs are very low. 600 IU a day is good for preventing rickets, but not for a stronger immune system. I take between 20K and 30K IU of vitamin D in the winter, which by today's standards is barbaric, and I have noticed nothing but positive effects. No hypercalcemia even going over 100 ng/ml of vitamin D in the blood.

It's worth noting that vitamin D is not a secret magical panacea that is being hidden from us by Big Pharma because it doesn't make them $$$.

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I have said the opposite of what you are asserting, now I will back it up. Vitamin D has a more unknown role (the best known is to bring calcium to the bones), which is to strengthen the immune system:

Vitamin D: its role and uses in immunology

Vitamin D and the Immune System

Vitamin D: modulator of the immune system

An update on vitamin D and human immunity

It is not just a matter of COVID. With a stronger immune system, people would need less medicine.

It's also worth noting in regard to this myth that AZ are providing their vaccine at cost, with no profit motive.

Yes but do Pfizer and the others also manufacture vaccines altruistically and without seeking financial gain?

From what I've read, it seems like only people with serious Vitamin D deficiency ought to take the supplements.

To begin with, as I said before, vitamin D is not a vitamin, although it may seem paradoxical to say so. Then, the current guidelines regarding what is a deficiency are garbage, as they consider that 30 ng/ml are optimal and that a dose of 20k IU is barbaric, when that is what you can get on a summer day by sunbathing moderately for a while.

People should really be careful with self-treatment, even if it's something as innocent as the vitamins, and consult with professionals.

Yes, of course. If I had a life-threatening disease like cancer, I would put myself in the doctor's hands and do what he told me, but for other things I don't trust so much.

For example: some time ago I had put on weight and the doctor gave me some dietary guidelines that are recommended nowadays but they are garbage. Eating five times a day, cereal-based diet, etc. I did what he told me and I didn't stop gaining weight.

Now I do something that is considered barbaric but I have lost a lot of weight, I am not hungry and I feel better than ever: I eat two or maximum three times a day, the basis of the diet being fats. If I go to the doctor and tell him, he will tell me that I am going to faint from skipping meals and to die from a heart attack because of fats. Nothing farther from the truth.

And I could talk about other things, like cholesterol, or how high blood sugar and diabetes can be cured simply by fasting instead of insulin (Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin), but I think I'll leave it here because it would be digressing too much.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Also, hypercalcemia, which is the danger of taking high doses of vitamin D, is reversible.

Hypercalcemia itself is reversible, but things it causes might not be. The most likely example would be renal stones, which can cause acute kidney injury and permanent renal damage. Paralytic ileus can lead to bowel perforation requiring major abdominal surgery. Hypercalcemia will make cardiac myocytes relatively refractory to depolarization, which in severe cases can lead to cardiac dysrhythmias and cardiac arrest. Hypercalcemia is not a benign condition.

how high blood sugar and diabetes can be cured simply by fasting instead of insulin (Therapeutic use of intermittent fasting for people with type 2 diabetes as an alternative to insulin)

Important to specify this only applies to type 2 diabetics. If a type 1 diabetic stops taking insulin, they will die.

[Cnut237]

It has been found that Vitamin D increases the expression of the ACE2 receptor, which is a binding site for the coronavirus.

That's an interesting article, thanks.

Vitamin D has a more unknown role (the best known is to bring calcium to the bones), which is to strengthen the immune system

I think it's accepted that vitamin D deficiency is very common, particularly at higher latitudes. It has health benefits, yes. Moderate supplementation makes sense.

It is not just a matter of COVID. With a stronger immune system, people would need less medicine.

Sure, it improves overall health. But this doesn't mean that vitamin D is a viable alternative to vaccination. Evidence in general suggests that it helps with Covid outcomes, the paper linked to above notwithstanding. I might suspect (but have no data) that the link between vitamin D deficiency and skin pigmentation may be a factor in the higher Covid rates amongst the BAME population. Vitamin D may help to an extent, just like masks help to an extent. But if you want immunity, your options are either catch it, or take the vaccine.

It's also worth noting in regard to this myth that AZ are providing their vaccine at cost, with no profit motive.

Yes but do Pfizer and the others also manufacture vaccines altruistically and without seeking financial gain?

I'm not denying that large pharmaceutical companies have engaged in some quite egregiously immoral behaviour over the years; Martin Shkreli is not an isolated anomaly. AZ I'm sure are also guilty of questionable practices, just perhaps not with Covid.
Here in the UK, the discussion of how vitamin D might relate to Covid is out in the open; it's not being suppressed. I'm not aware of whether potential links are suppressed in other countries.

[Poker Player]

Ok first of all, I am going to reply to you both and I'll leave this discussion here. I'll probably open a separate thread about Vitamin D.

Hypercalcemia itself is reversible, but things it causes might not be. The most likely example would be renal stones, which can cause acute kidney injury and permanent renal damage. Paralytic ileus can lead to bowel perforation requiring major abdominal surgery. Hypercalcemia will make cardiac myocytes relatively refractory to depolarization, which in severe cases can lead to cardiac dysrhythmias and cardiac arrest. Hypercalcemia is not a benign condition.

Yes, of course. The point is that many times the issue of hypercalcemia is highlighted as if by taking 5-10k you are going to develop hypercalcemia and therefore have permanent kidney damage and the like, when cases are rare, you have to take massive amounts of vitamin D in supplements (you never develop hypercalcemia by sunbathing) and it is not that by developing hypercalcemia you are going to have permanent physical damage 100% of the time. The normal thing for someone who takes doses considered high, is to stop taking them at the slightest symptom, another thing is the people who take these amounts uninformed, or who begin to notice symptoms, do not attribute them to the consumption of vitamin D, and continue consuming large amounts until it is too late.

Important to specify this only applies to type 2 diabetics. If a type 1 diabetic stops taking insulin, they will die.

Yes, of course.

Sure, it improves overall health. But this doesn't mean that vitamin D is a viable alternative to vaccination. Evidence in general suggests that it helps with Covid outcomes, the paper linked to above notwithstanding. I might suspect (but have no data) that the link between vitamin D deficiency and skin pigmentation may be a factor in the higher Covid rates amongst the BAME population. Vitamin D may help to an extent, just like masks help to an extent. But if you want immunity, your options are either catch it, or take the vaccine.

Well, I can agree with that, although I am not 100% sure, but in general agree with this and the rest of what you say. Here again it is shown that although we may have different points of view on many things, by debating we can come to discover that sometimes we have closer thoughts than it would seem at first.

[Cnut237]

I'll probably open a separate thread about Vitamin D.

That might be a good idea. I'd like to see more data, as what we have so far on the links between vitamin D and Covid aren't conclusive. Understandably the large scale trials etc have all been about the vaccines. If we didn't have vaccines, then perhaps there would have been some major vitamin D trials.

Here again it is shown that although we may have different points of view on many things, by debating we can come to discover that sometimes we have closer thoughts than it would seem at first.

Yes. I certainly appreciate the discussion. I find that debating a topic with someone who takes the opposing viewpoint forces me to confront and attempt to justify my own assumptions and reasoning, which is always a good thing.

[Kittygalore]

Not really, have you heard of herd immunity, it is where people like you that are smarter than science are being carried by the population that is vaccinated, with them being immune to the virus, which means that the virus can't spread to people like you.

[BADecker]

It's worth noting that vitamin D is not a secret magical panacea that is being hidden from us by Big Pharma because it doesn't make them $$$. It's also worth noting in regard to this myth that AZ are providing their vaccine at cost, with no profit motive.
Vitamin D may help against Covid to an extent, and is unlikely to harm unless you're mega-dosing. But it's not the single answer, or even the best answer. Vaccination is the way out of this. And until vaccination is at sufficient levels to provide herd immunity, then masks, social distancing etc are crucial.

Actually, vitamin D in large doses heals not only Covid, but most of the comorbidities, as well. THIS is the real reason the medical doesn't advertise it very much. V-D and the medical are mutually exclusive. Either no vitamin D in healing amounts, or no medical. Take your pick.